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New England Design & Construction Founder and CEO discusses what it really means to be an Architect in today's world, and how we can change history to build a brighter future for the industry.

Show highlights include: 

  • The existing builder/architect relationship is set up to be adversarial (2:01)
  • How an 1800s group of architects created the current status quo of building (and how you can improve it) (4:44)
  • It’s not about picking sides it’s about how do we collaborate and communicate better (8:22)
  • The odd way builders have lost their social status—and how our industry can get it back (8:34)
  • The systemic reason why  builders have a bad reputation—how it leaves clients worse off (17:29)
  • A simple word-for-word script that makes your projects more successful for the architect, the client and yourself. (25:55)
  • How to educate clients and architects on your value as a builder. (32:18)

If you’d like to connect with David Supple you can find him at www.nedesignbuild.com

To view his short video visit: https://youtu.be/bWUkAc66Q-4

To connect with Duane, Dave, or one of our show guests head over to https://buildernuggets.com and join our active community of like-minded builders and remodelers.

Read Full Transcript

It's like imagine a chef who went to school for four years, but never cooked a goddamn thing. And now his job is to tell folks what to cook and how to cook it.

Welcome to builder nuggets hosted by Dwayne Johns and Dave young. Hey, our mission is simple, build freedom. We're a couple of entrepreneurs turned business coaches who have dedicated ourselves to helping our builder remodel. Our clients create the most rewarding businesses in the industry. My cohost Dwayne has been a successful builder and remodeler for over 30 years. He's seen the highs and the lows from the beginning though. Dwayne has been on a quest to find a better way to run a contracting business in 2016, he found that better way. That's how I met Dave, a lifelong entrepreneur and visionary who measures his success by the success of those around him. He reached out one day with a formula on how to transform my business. And the rest is history. Since then, we've teamed up to help hundreds of contractors like you built better businesses and better lives. And now we've decided to open up our network and share our secrets so we can start moving the needle with you. It's collaboration over competition. Each week we bring together industry peers and experts who share their stories so that we can all build freedom together.

(01:13): Today's guest is a graduate of Tufts university with a degree in architecture in California. He trained as an architect for three years, designing, directing, and managing renovations ranging from 50 to a hundred thousand square feet. He founded new England design and construction in 2005 and became incorporated in 2006 and rapidly expanded the company to service the greater Boston area. He's an aspiring comedian, but currently he only practices with his wife. His passion for both design and construction is no laughing matter though, since he was a kid, he has been awestruck by great architecture and really cool buildings. Now as a design build professional, he is on a bit of a personal mission to help forge better relationships and collaborations between architects and builders. It's my pleasure to welcome David supple, CEO of new England design and construction to today's show. Welcome David. Thank you, Dwayne. Thank you, Dave pleasure. Aspiring comedian. So how's that working out for you? Oh Man. I know. You're gonna read that. We'll see. We'll see. I'm, I'm have to take that out of the, uh, the bio no, I like to have a good time, you know, and I like to, I like to joke around and so, and I think about it sometimes, you know, I really, I really think that's a, uh, quite a talent. And so those are some of my favorite folks very entertaining, right?

(02:25): Yeah. And I mean, for us, anybody that knows us collaborates with us a lot, they'll find out that one of our call it a core value with us is you just can't take yourself too serious, you know? Yeah. We're board with you, man. Okay. Yeah. Conservative. It's not good. Have you tried standup yet? It's one of those things that looks, I never have. I, yeah, but I better be terrified. You know, I I've listened to a bunch of books, you know, by comedians. And so I think you just gotta jump in. That's kind of how I I've lived my life. I trial by fire. So, and it's funny, you know, I've read stuff to that where most comedians are actually the most introverted people out there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You know, David, when you and I spoke a few weeks ago, we kind of talked about the, the love, hate relationship that is the architect builder. Um, it goes both ways. I think it's seen, can be perceived that way by both sides. Yeah. You know, and that's what we kind of want to dive into a little bit today. I mean, what's your perspective on that? Well, That's the setup, that's the way it's set up to be is to be adversarial. And so where you see that being overcome, it's really individuals taking the initiative and stepping up and saying, Hey, it's about the product. It's about collaboration. And we need to work together to achieve this common goal. We have to have an amazing project for the client. But what I have done is I've, I've really done a deep dive into how this came to be, how this setup came to be. And it's actually quite unnatural. Walk us Through that deep dive. Okay. You teed It up perfectly there.

(03:55): Yeah. Well the most folks don't know this. A lot of folks do, but the derivation of the word architect, do you guys know what it is? It is master builder, ding, Ding, ding. That's right, Dwayne. And, um, it goes back to ancient grease times. They actually got it from the Egyptians, which is another, another side of the story. But, and, and, and master that word master was really comes from the trades. You're an apprentice, you're a journeyman, you're a master. And now you can direct and design the work and that system where you would come up through the trades and the best builders, that's the root of the word would then design and, and direct the work. And that held true for millennia for thousands of years. That is the way it was up until it has been made to appear like it was always separated, but that is not true. What happened in the middle of the 18 hundreds is you had a group of fellows who were builders. And the problem they were trying to solve is that they could not reach a certain social status because they were from the building trades and per the definition of a gentleman, which in the mid 18 hundreds was in England's census.

(05:06): And Americans had just scanned their independence heavily influenced by English culture. So this status of a gentleman they could not achieve because they were tied into building manual labor. That was a no-no. And so what they did is they created the American Institute of architects initially in 1837, with the stated purpose to raise their social status, it was not to make better buildings. It was not to, you know, unite those that create buildings for the sake of clients. It was for their own short term social status from that. And they were successful. They made it so only they could call themselves architects. Whereas if you look in the English dictionary for that time period, if you look up architect and you look up builder, they're actually synonyms. They meant the same thing. And it was a PR play. They started to wear suits. They got rid of their overalls. The, the kind of the death blow was the way they got an architect trained was switched from an apprenticeship system, which is the root of that word to a university curriculum. And that inadvertently, you had cycles of graduates know a little bit less and more disconnected from the art of building and how things go together. And that's kind of where my story begins because I graduated from school and I had no clue what I was doing. And I com from completely deficient insecure about it. And that's what, you know, started me down the path of looking into this, but that is how it came to be. And then, you know, regulations. And, and so you come today and it's just the way it is. It's totally accepted the status quo, but the universities are the ones that really ingrain it and teach it and, and create that separation and that divide and that, you know, adversarial setup as a result,

(07:00): What happens next? When you you're insecure, you're coming out, you've got this book knowledge, this design knowledge, and you don't have the construction knowledge. How do you obtain that? What you, you must have had some challenges along the way with that. Oh, certainly. Certainly. I was completely, you know, I don't know what the right word embarrassed, but deficient certainly. And so Probably not probably lack of confidence, right. Oh, totally, totally insecure. Are you kidding me? I was like, and, and, and that's where, you know, I think I had a choice at that point and I think, you know, there, part of the stigma of architects is kind of this pretentiousness, you know, where that comes from is there is a bit of pre, there is a bit of pretending, like I could have just, you know, been like, Hey, I'm the architect, you know, kind of, but I didn't have knowledge. I was missing information. And so I actually went and worked as a carpenter with the sole intention to fill that void that I knew I had. And I just, uh, you know, would not be ever be in my eyes competent to tell folks what to build and how to build it. Unless I had filled that void. An analogy I give a lot is like a chef. It's like, imagine a chef who went to school for four years, but never cooked a goddamn thing. And now his job is to tell folks what to cook and how to cook it. Like how, how would that chef feel about himself? How would he be? You know? And so I did that, you know, for, for a bit I got fired and then I started, uh, my, my company basically. Yeah.

(08:31): I mean, and it truly resonates with, I mean, I'm a builder myself. I have great relationships with architects. I think architects even see some of this the same way I'm and I'm sure many of them don't even really know, go all the way back and know that backstory, you know, I mean, we had, you know, Schiffer Nick from NS builders. We've had Nick on a couple times, the first episode he did with us was called the noble builder, you know, and it was really around why is it that there's still places in the world? The builder has a status of nobility. Mm-hmm, , we've lost that here. Mm-hmm um, and we, yeah, I, I think there's just a collective group of us that we, we want that back, you know? Yeah. And, but it's only gonna come through that collaboration as you were talking, this is not, you know, right. The whole point of this episode is to not be divisive. We're not trying to throw anybody under the bus. It's just acknowledging, um, something that I think many of us have known for a long time. There's always been this adversarial thing and we we've gotta break that. We've gotta break down that wall.

(09:22): Totally. We're on the same team. We're one half of the whole, you know, it's not about picking sides and saying, this side is right and that side is wrong. You know, they're both wrong. actually, and we need to get back together. And that nobility where that went is when the higher, you know, design, what is design design is really about thinking things through thinking through things ahead of time, you know, having kind of a higher level of thought put into the project, right. And the trades inherently throughout history was innate within the trades. That was just part of it, but that got taken away. Okay. And then what is left? You know, that's where the nobility went. It, it America particularly is the worst in terms of this in Europe, I've heard, you know, there, there still is this, the architects still know how to build it's part of they come to America and they're like, what the hell did y'all do? But that is where it went. And, you know, Nick does a great job of overcoming that. But if you look at it, like what he's doing, he is he's taking responsibility for a broader level than, than is necessarily written down or given to him in the system. You know, he's supposed to just take orders and bang nails.

(10:39): It's interesting you say that because I I'm thinking way back. I was probably in my early twenties working on a custom home and got introduced to this fellow named Torsten, who came over from Germany, you know, carried himself as kind of introduced himself right off the bat, as Torsten from Germany, the master painter. And we're all like, yeah, the master painter, you know, this guy's dude, you're a painter. And, but as we got to know him and understand him more and saw the work that he did and the pride that he took in it, you know, explain to us how they go through the ranks to even earn that designation. It, it was like, wow, that's eyeopening to me, you know? Yeah. I mean, you, you, you guys still look at that as a true craft. It's respected. And that was, for me, it was a moment of, wow, we're, there is something here that's, you know, that's definitely missing. Totally. And we need to get back to that. And I, the way that we get back to that is, you know, reintegrating the curriculum, the way an architect and a builder is trained today. You know, we're in, I'm in Boston. We have, you know, we're known for our universities and a lot of 'em have, you know, architecture, degrees, engineering degrees, construction management degrees, but they're completely segregated. It's completely separated, you know, different professors, different curriculums. They are not, you know, so it's built, it's trained into the industry that separation and segregation and the outcome is not good. You know, the, the, it does not, it was not made that way for a better product and for a better experience for the client.

(12:13): Do you think David, that part of the problem is that you've got students coming into one industry or the other where they only want the one discipline. And they're like, for example, going to architectural school and getting a degree in architecture because they don't want to be a builder, they don't want to know. And that's cool. And that's cool. And that's your prerogative and there's boundless. I mean, the, the construction industry, holy cow, and as technology advances, there's just gonna be more Subec and specializations, right. To focus in whether it's more on the design side or in the, or kind of on the execution. I mean, we're gonna, you know, we could expand this conversation, but I mean, the way technology's moving, everything is gonna be, everybody's gonna be pushing buttons, whether you're designing or building sure. You know, at some point, and then not too distant future, but the way the curriculum should be set up, I don't, we do not need to solve this problem. It has been done before the Bowhouse, which you may be familiar with Walter gro. I believe that school is, uh, founded in 1919. I I've written, uh, an article on this was a trade school is a workshop focused school.

(13:27): So whether you wanted to be an architect or you just wanted to be a, you know, a, an artist and craftsman, you started in the same pool and you learn the same fundamentals, mean you can break it down in any trade. Like if say, if you're gonna be an electrical engineer or an electrician, there are common curriculum, foundational information you should both have, and it should start together where, you know, you, first off, you're learning the same information. Second off it's being taught like, Hey, we're a team here, we're together. And then you can go off and specialize in the area that you want to. And, uh, or you could just keep going. And those that see the thing that happened when this architect, the master builder kind of receded and out of default, was not able to build anymore. Is there was nobody left to be like, Hey, just come to me. And I will take care of everything. The, the con the construction manager position, job, whatever that was an invention in the 1950s out of like, Hey, who the hell is gonna run these projects? Like they can't do it anymore. We need to invent this position to do it. That's where that came from. But, you know, we call ourselves design builders, but for, for lack of a better world word, let's just say those that wanna be in charge of everything are gonna keep going. And they're gonna be, you know, the, the, the new masters.

(14:49): I know we're obviously this conversation's gonna continue into ways that we collaborate and ways that we, you know, make these relationships better. But I I've, I've just gotta ask you, cuz you've got a YouTube video posted out there. You're passionate about this. You're obviously bringing it to the attention of folks, but have you pissed some people off with this? I mean, is it, you know what, I Hope's the responses to it, you know, You know, it's interesting. I get, um, I, I think I offend folks at fir first people are a little bit like, they don't know what to make of it. It depends kind of where you're coming from. Cause it's like they're and I think I confuse people too. Cuz there might be an architect. Who's like, Hey I'm on this side. This is right. and then, and they're kind of like, are you, are you part of me? And then on the build side they wanna like, you know, go into bash and architects and they think, or they're like, oh no, you're not really doing that either. So it's like, I think I confuse people but I think if you give it, I think a commonality is it is, it might take a minute, but you kind of let it percolate a little bit and you just think about, oh yeah, this does not make sense. You know, this setup does not make sense. It's uh, you come around to it because it's, it's actually logical. It actually makes yeah. A bunch of sense. And when you look at the most successful relationships, you know, builder architect, client trade relationships, you know, on those projects that go really, really well. People that maybe have been working together for years in a way they've cobbled together, the old fashioned solution, you know, they've said, Hey, a minute, I need as a builder, I really need to have that knowledge in the knowhow of the architect. And then you've got the architect that also respects, man, you know, I'm designing something that I'm not sure, you know, the, the, the real practicality of building this. So I'm gonna bring in the builder. So what, what used to be like you said, kind of under one thing as a master builder has

(16:36): Yeah. It's of course it's this hybrid, it's this hybrid, this design build hybrid setups, which you see more and more of like the Nick shippers of the world. And uh, and I think this is how you guys train your folks. It's like, see the, the architect when they're designing has a problem, they don't know what the hell is gonna cost . Their client wants to know what it's gonna want to cost. So you see a lot of these pre-construction agreements now where, you know, the architect knows like, Hey, I need to bring this fell on, on board. We're gonna collaborate and you're gonna have, it's gonna be a smoother process. We're gonna get to the right project in a more efficient manner. And you know, that's, it's very similar to our process except we just have it all in house. That sounds a heck of a lot better than giving it to three builders and say, give me a quote for this, by the Way. Oh, I mean, it's just strew strew with problems. And that's why the re the reputation of the industry historically, is not good. Like that is the root cause. It's not that builders are stupid out, you know, unethical, you know, it's not that architects are stupid or whatever, it's the setup. It is systemic. It really, really is. And, and because the client is, is left in the middle, the client is left in the middle of that, cuz they have two professionals, neither one of which is fully responsible, but both are responsible.

(17:59): And from, from someone that does, you know, engage in a, a very deep planning process, preconstruction process, myself, us reconstruction, process myself, even that I can say that if we don't pull that off really well, it just results in finger pointing. Yeah. You know, cause it's dark fault. It's the building. And then it's this way and it's that way. Yes. You Know? Yeah. I mean the beauty with us is that the fingers come back to us right, right. Beauty for the client, you know, but, but yeah, that's a different finger yeah. You know, embrace accountability. That's, that's one of our mottos and it, it is simpler for the client. It is. So what are you seeing? I mean, through these conversations with, with people, I mean, I don't, I don't see any kind of drastic change where we're gonna go back to a, technically a master builder designation of an architect. I mean that, you know, the probably could continue the way it is, but how, how, how does the relationship, I, I guess, how does that improve? How do we all work together to make that better? Well, communication that's really it. And you know, we need to come together and decide to, you know, unite the industry. It, it has been up set up to be separated. And I do look at the educational system as a foundational component of that because that's where it starts, it's ingrained into and trained into the industry by having the setup be the way it is. So I do believe, and, and even before the, the Bowhouse the, the first design build curriculum, the Bowhouse really was a design build curriculum, not taught at all. Walter gro walked quit Harvard university design school because he got the workshop. I, you can Google Crimson tide and find this article. This I've written a blog about it because he came from the Bowhouse from Germany. He then became, uh, the head of the Harvard architectural school. And it always hit me like, why didn't he do that there?

(19:52): And I, and I Googled it and I found these Harvard crims in that's their school newspaper. He, he quit and he's quoted as saying, I've been trying to get this workshop curriculum into Harvard for a decade. I finally got it in. Everybody loved it. The students loved it. The professors loved it. This Dean got rid of it and I'm out, but nobody knows that. But even before him, the first design bill curriculum was actually in Tuskegee university. In the end of the 18 hundreds you had Mr. Washington start this Tuskegee university, predominantly black, uh, historically black college. And they had a design built curriculum and they, you know, they would work in the drafting room and then they would build, they actually built a lot of the structures, the actual buildings for the school through that way. And so that's a model and you see E even in today, you see, I think there's a hundred universities in America that have design build classes or some sort of design build curriculum, but it's, it's kind of, it's like a semester or it's kind of a token class it's optional, but it really needs to be like flipped. You know, that needs to be the way it is and it will change. I do believe it will change and it will create a new breed that, that is, you know, it is now trained in that this unity and this integration and this understanding of the full gamut.

(21:21): Do I work with, you know, a few trade schools, some other initiatives on the, on the local level, you know, where folks are trying to bring some of that skilled trade stuff as opportunities, you know, back to some of the younger folks and, and the ones that are seeing the most success are the ones that are teaching the broader curriculum. They're, they're saying, Hey, you know, you're gonna come into this. You know what? You need to understand a little bit about design. You need to understand a little bit about construction, electricity, all of the stuff that goes into a, into a home. So I I'm in total agreement. I think that having that broader, at least, you know, for whether it's a few years, whatever, be introduced to it, besides just straight out of the gate being narrow focused on one discipline. Yeah. It's true for both sides. Like if you go right into the theoretical on the, you know, design side into that, you're missing, you know, a foundation that is really, you know, I think that's the ideal is, is kind of to have that, that foundational in how you build. I mean, that is what you're doing. And even like, if you go, whatever it is, 10, 15, 20 years from now, when technology is even further advanced, you know, you can have, you know, like 3d buildings now it's like, when did the design stop and which press of the button did the design stop and the it go into construction there, you know, that is actually gonna increase. But if you do not have, uh, a fundamental knowledge of how things go together, and yet you're now designing, you're not even designing the building, you're designing the machinery, that's gonna build a building. Like the machinery is gonna be messed up, you know? So you, you, it does, you do need that. You do need that, that understanding, that basic understanding of building and, and, um, and it's built into the word architect, you know, and it's just part of one and the same,

(23:05): Wanna level up connect with us to share your stories, ideas, challenges, and successes. The builder nuggets community is built on your experiences. It takes less than a minute to connect with us@buildernuggets.com, Facebook or Instagram, want access to the resources that can take you and your team to the next level. One call could change everything. David, when you think about the institutions out there, whether they're universities or any other, um, well institution. Yeah. Is there one, is there one that's a clear leader in north America in this that you see as, Hey, they're getting it, you know, you mentioned, you know, there's a hundred schools that are starting to, but Mm-hmm, , who's, Who's discovered it. No, there's definitely a movement in that direction. And you know, David Sellers and Peter Glock, these are two guys that graduated from Yale in the, the, I believe the end of the 1950s at that time, the AIA code of ethics said, architects couldn't build. And they just said, you know, middle fingers, they moved to Vermont and started building architects, started building. They actually started this design build movement. Those were the two that I've seen. They then aspired others, Jersey devil, you may have heard of, and these, it was kind of like a hippie, like, Hey, let's just freaking, uh, figure out what we're building as we go. But it got some publicity. And a lot of from that, there's a yes, tomorrow school design build school in Vermont. And a lot of those folks from that now teach in various university of Washington, university of Miami, Kansas. Um, there's a lot that has kind of stronger design build curriculums, but you know, they're hampered by kind of the man or the institution, because the reason nobody knows this when it really should be common knowledge is because our history books have been written in such a way that it has made it seem like the architect and builder were always separate. And who, who writes the history books,

(25:06): It's time for some nuggets here on what to do next. So whether you're a builder listening or an architect listening, obviously you could go and learn more about the other craft or the other trade and develop an appreciation about that. So that's always a good starting point, but what's some of the advice that you would give a builder having an introductory conversation or what, what are some of the discussions that need to be had? Because it strikes us that we really need to learn to value each other first and do that. And when you understand what the, what the other person is, how, how they value themselves, what they bring to the table, what your strengths are, what their unique ability is, and you collaborate and say, okay, now how do we combine those to do something awesome? The co that's a little bit too theoretical. How does that actually yeah. Work in real life? Well, I mean, what you just said, I mean, if you're a builder or you're an architect, you could just take what you just said and then go meet with, you know, whatever the inverse is that you respect and say that exact thing and say, Hey, you know, I know that to have a successful project, I just deliver, you know, this aspect of that, but, you know, how can we work together and collaborate and be more successful in that? And, you know, do better projects and have more success. I think it's just, you know, it is simple, but it's not necessarily theoretical. I mean, I think it's just communication. It's just, you know, it's, but it's, it's, it's, it's also first being cognizant of the fact that we've been set up a bit, you know, I think if you're gonna sit in that adversarial contempt of like, oh, I'm right, they're wrong. You gotta, you gotta lose that. You gotta acknowledge, you know, you need each other and that's your, if you don't have those skills that they, they are still needed. And so being critical of the other side does not resolve anything.

(27:02): No, not at all. You talked about not being confident when you first came outta school. I think a lot of builders are not that confident or lack confidence in approaching an architect, especially one that's maybe has some notoriety in their, their, in their area. Sure. And they want, they want to get to know that, that architect and understand the value that they bring. And, and oftentimes they, they trip over themselves going about it the wrong way, where they're going to ask for leads instead of going relationship first or understanding the value and, and having that type of conversation. Mm-hmm what are some good starting points there? Like how do you, when, when you have, yeah. When a good, when a builder approaches you, you know, or approached you before, what worked and then conversely, the other way. Well, a little bit, this is hypothetical for me, cuz we Al we are always the builder. Yeah. And always the architect. So I don't really have these conversations, but At the beginning, at the beginning, you, you must have though, you must have had

(28:04): Some, I just did smaller. I just did smaller projects. Okay. I did, I did have some and, and it was, and it, and you know, it was like, Hey, what do you need? How can I help you? . And, and I, I bet there's, if you're a builder coming on the architect side, believe me, they could use help when they are designing. They don't like, they don't like, it does not make them look good when a project goes out to bid and it's twice or three times what the hell the client said, you know, they were they're budgeting. It is not uncommon. We, I mean, we get these calls where it's, it's been developed drawings and the they're they're worthless. The plans are worthless, cuz they're not feasible to be executed. So, you know, that is a great way to, to get involved early, you know, from the build side to, you know, add, add a service, maybe it's not that difficult or hard for you to do, but it's a foot in the door, you know, it's, you know, sharing your expertise and giving feedback on drawings. Something that could be, you know, value engineering should not come once the design is completed, it should be concurrent. Right. So, you know, what insight do you have that could make this, you know, give, uh, the same or superior product, but simpler more efficiently.

(29:18): I mean, as a builder, I got, I mean, you know, a builder should not try to price anything that hasn't had at least some sort of design and, and vice versa. I don't think that anything should be designed that hasn't at least had some serious costs, thought about it, you know? And that takes, that takes real collaboration before you even get started. Totally. But therein becomes the kind of the skillset. What if you could do both, you know, what, if you could meet with a client very early and have enough knowledge on both aspects to be able to create this outline of a project that, you know, the like the client will be right happy with, or maybe it isn't the project. Maybe it completely changes once you start. But I believe that is a skillset that I have and it is different. And I can't, and I, and I talk costs very early. I'm not talking fixed cost talking like, Hey, put a 25% range on it. Cuz there's obviously variables at this point in the way of your home and the way of getting to know you better. But you know, these are all the types of projects we ever do. So, you know, this is what I see you're gonna be at. So, you know, that is valuable. That is extremely valuable. And It's why you've seen such a shift to design build firms. I mean, over the last yeah, 15 to 20 years, you know, that that's the problem they're ultimately trying to solve. Do you see, as you said, there's more and more, I guess, institutions that are, that are teaching this. How do you see that changing from that same? I mean, do you see a lot of people that are gonna maybe technically have a professional design build designation? Do you see something like that

(30:51): Coming? I, I do. I mean, I think it's gonna be more grassroots. Like I've, uh, one of these in individuals, I mentioned Peter Glu David Sellers, uh, went kind of was an educator. Peter Glu started Glu plus, which is in Manhattan, incredible design build firm. Incredible. I've seen Peter speak to AIA around the country and institutions. My observation is they're not really listening. Like I think the consumer, I think we need to educate the consumer and make them aware because I, I talk to my clients. They're like, dude, design build is the way to go because you know, I think I've heard you guys talk about it in terms of like, what, what would be better? Would you rather take on more risk, get, you know, the idea of a lower cost upfront, but then, you know, have a, an awful experience or would you rather, Hey, I'm gonna tell you upfront, I am not going anywhere. So I have some accountability in giving you proper, you know, foresight and expectations and then carry it through. But I do believe for me personally, I'm trying to just educate folks like, Hey, the derivation of the word architect is master builder. We're one and the same, it's synthetic, it's fabricated this break. It's the reason you see a Dr. A a, a, a movement back to the integration is, cause it makes sense cuz it's natural, you know, step number one though, to educate folks and just change the consciousness of this subject because folks have been bamboozled, it's been an incredible PR play to have the setup we have now and have nobody know from which we came and it goes deep.

(32:35): Is it really the architect's voice that needs to lead bringing the builder back into the value of the builder, back into the conversation? Just do you see that happening? Do you see that happening now? Yeah. You know, I think it's like we have to get away from those titles and the like once one side or the other, it's hard to think with initially I've been doing it for a while and it's like, we need to like just break down those walls and, and it's not about, Hey, you, you, you y'all take it and y'all lead it or let's let's have you, you know, that would be great, you know, but it's like, we're one and the same. We're not SEP, we're not really different. We've just been, been trained to think that we're like totally different. And so I think it's really, you know, a reintegration and, and um, you know, I think it's, that's gonna take time, like the licenses, the way it's set up now, the litigation it's like that those industries built from this, you know, architects are, are, you know, you've heard them probably say it's risk adverse because that is also trained in, I think it's easier actually for the builder to start designing, you know, cause the builder's like, whatever, but it's almost for the architect. It's like, oh no, like, oh, I'm not supposed to do that. You know, it's like, uh, the insurance a I, from what I've observed, they like kind of messes them up more. It's a harder leap, but you, you see more and more taking it and you know, it's just, we just need to talk about it more. And uh, and, and I think the consumer, you know, once the consumer's like, Hey, I don't want that. I want that. Then, then, you know, the institution is all that stuff is gonna come around.

(34:14): So what is the that when you, when you talk about it, is it, they, they wanna see a collaboration. They wanna see one person. Yes. Because, because the reality is not only was this like, okay, yeah. Originally it was a, it was a PR play. But also you have with the advent of technology, these different specialties and, and write down even within building different specialties and, and the sub trades that all used to be covered under, under one thing. So now a project is a mass collaboration at every single step of the way. Totally. And bringing that together. That's that, that whole piece, it's not just, it's not just the architect or the designer and the builder. It's every single trade partner that's involved. Yeah. In that with you, who used to be part of that architect fold. So yeah, with this new reality and people understand, Hey, I need all these different people. How do you have the conversations around you have, do you have different specialists on your team? You have these different collaborations, you better have a collaboration story. Um, because you have a scalability issue. If you're gonna try and do the whole thing yourself and, and go back to the, it was so, so how, how do you make, how do you put all of those? How do you, you know, get the Rubik's key, all the colors in the right. In the right spot on this one.

(35:30): Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great point, Dave, and you could look at that and be like, oh my God, it's overwhelming. And, and again, technology is gonna increase that specialization, but at the same tone, it's all the more reason you need somebody responsible for it. All mm-hmm, , it's it it's like it doesn't help to split it all up. And they'll be like, yeah, it's all split up. We need specialists. Yes. I, I do not disagree with you on that, but you also need somebody who's standing there and is accountable and responsible for it all to otherwise the client, it just falls and trickles down on the client. And so, you know, that's the reality of it. There's no, there's no. And, and you know, is it possible to do that? I mean, look at SpaceX, look at tech, you

(36:17): Know, well, you touched on it, you touched on it earlier with this, with the complexity, with the, with the different technologies, with the different specialties, there is an increasing need for better communication. And the good news around that is the advancements in technology are also applied to communication where you can have a project manager that can FaceTime or zoom in five consultants onto a call with a client and get, get them access to instant information, things that are being uploaded in real time. It it'd be great when we get like permitting offices and you know, all, all the other infrastructure things up to speed with some of that. So this can all happen faster, but how do you leverage those advances in technology to bring the communication piece together? That's gonna be the real balancing act here because whoever is responsible accountable has a team of leaders that can be responsible and accountable for their particular aspect of the build and fall under your umbrella of accountability. And that's right. And building that team is that's where there's real potential for this message to go so that you can be a specialist. You don't, I there's probably people listening, thinking, I gotta know all this stuff. And really you don't, you just have to know somebody who does no and be able to communicate with them and have the tools and the mindset and a

(37:36): Mutual res, a mutual respect. Yeah. And understanding that we are all part of the whole, we're all going after the same thing. We're all, you know, working towards achieving this product. We're all on the same team. Right. It's, it's really, you know, it's gonna be it's hap whether we, whether we do these podcasts, whether we talk about this subject or not, it's gonna happen because it's just sensical. It just makes sense. And so we should just talk about it more and speed it up. Yeah. Get, get rid of the hi hierarchy part of it and get more of a circle of accountability, I think is where it's, you're probably talking. Yeah. Talking about going Totally. Uh, it's deep actually, because I was thinking about this today and what, you know, what if the group charged with creating space that up lifts us and, you know, unites the world. What if their stated purpose for forming was to, to divide to be, you know, to make themselves more scarce? What if that was the purpose of the group responsible for that charge, that, that creating our built environment, you know, that if it was built on, Hey, Nope, you don't fit. You can't be, you can't beat one of us. Nope. You, you, you know, Nope. We're changing the diff the dictionary definitions now. Sorry. You know, what would be the outcome? Would that be spaces that unite us? No. You know, what would, what would be the outcome?

(39:01): You know, it's, it's all about the value, you know, that you're, that we're creating, it's gonna be fragmented for a while. This is not gonna, you know, correct itself or solve itself anytime, you know, in the, in the short term. So you're gonna have folks out there that maybe like yourself, they have something totally in house. You know, there there's design build firms that are pulling it off. You'll have others that are maybe very separate. Maybe it's a, they're, they're a strict builder architect, relationship, others that have some sort of hybrid and collabo, but the, you know, at the end of the day, you've gotta figure out how you're operating and raise the level of the relationships, you know, really understand the value that each person is bringing to the table. Cuz I think for the, I think for the end user, for the client, that a lot of times is the most confusing thing, you know, is that they don't, they may not understand.

(39:47): I know a lot of times as a builder, one of the biggest things I have to do is let the homeowner understand the value of why this architecture designer wants to charge you so much. You know, they don't get that. Yeah. They think, well, can't you just build it. It looks like the house across the street or, or whatever the case, you know? And then the other side of it is, you know, you might have somebody that gravitates more towards, well, my architects already designed it. You know, what do you, what do you mean? You can't gimme a price on it? Well, you know, there's a lot more that goes into it as far as levels of design and all the different details that we need. And yeah, I, I think that's the big, the big takeaway for folks is to think about your current situation, how you have relationships with designers, trades all this and, and how do you make that? Just turn it up a notch way up, you know? Yeah, yeah. To make it very collaborative sharing open it's it's the only way that's gonna, that that's gonna succeed in the long. Yeah, Totally.

(40:38): If I were to sum this up from, from all the things that you've just shared with us is where this thing went. Sideways is one faction, one group decided overall to elevate themselves. And now there's an opportunity to look at, Hey, how do we elevate each other? How do we understand the value the others bring? How do we become advocates for what the other person does? How do we elevate their them in the minds of our client or any other influence or, or anybody else who's part of that decision and really get to know the value of your, your team and focus on that and tie better communication to that. And that's how you will build an enduring thriving business. And it doesn't matter whether the model is, you know, your person is in house or you're collaborating with a dedicated architect. The fundamentally is there, you know, design build is way better than build design. And that's what we joke around with cuz build design is expensive and frustrating and you don't even end up getting what you want. So really we're all on a design build team. And if you look at it that way and say, who's on my design build team, I've got a mastermind on my design build team who are they? And put all that together. And now you're working on something meaningful that is focusing on the value of the other person. Yeah. Hey Man, Hey man, well said, dude, you guys are smart.

(42:02): It's obvious how passionate you are about this. And thanks for being someone that steps up to, you know, to bring up a, what is a dicey subject because it is so adversarial, you know, and, and absolutely no reason for it to be. Um, it's things like this, having the conversations, you know, elevating, elevating the discussion that that's, what's gonna obviously remote in some positive change. So I mean, again, just a ton of thanks for you for putting the effort into it and uh, keep doing what you're doing, man. And You're well, man, right. And you in your book as well, where's it going to be available on August 1st? So Yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram, the design build movement, and I will release it for free, uh, August 1st and find me there. You can also Google on YouTube and, and this is how we connected. Uh, there's a, a short film, 10 minute film called the true meaning of an architect. That's worth a worth, a watch as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's good stuff, man. Again, thanks for coming on this show. Thanks for taking some time, keep doing what you're doing. It's great to see people passionate about what they're doing and uh, we're gonna stay in touch. I'm sure we'll have you up, have you back on for an update at some point, so awesome. Would love that. Thank you guys. Yeah. Thanks.

Hey, thanks for listening, Dwayne and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome. Got a cool tip idea for a show problem that you haven't been able to solve, or maybe just struggling to figure out what you need next and where to get it. We can help hit us up@buildernuggets.com and start building freedom.

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