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When you know everything, nobody can help you. When you have the confidence to share your challenges you invite heroes to help you solve them. Shannon Waller shares the subtleties of how to use uncertainty to attract others to your mission.

Show highlights include:

  • The simple question to ask yourself which immediately wipes your mind of your worries (10:54)
  • The counterintuitive reason uncertainty is your secret weapon for unlocking massive growth (12:33)
  • How to be confident and uncertain at the same time to invite more teamwork into any given project (even with clients) (13:05)
  • Why your arrogance will kill more deals than acting like you know nothing (17:49)
  • How to become a better leader by doing the exact opposite of what people on TV do (20:58)
  • Why being vulnerable repels clients sand how transparency attracts them like honey does bees (24:57)
  • The weird “Flip The Script” trick which transforms your client relationships into partnerships (30:39)

If you'd like to connect with Shannon and discover how Strategic Coach will change your business, visit their website here: https://www.strategiccoach.com/. Or visit her website for free resources here: https://yourteamsuccess.com/.

To get the most out of this podcast, or connect with Duane and Dave, head over to https://buildernuggets.com and join our active community of like-minded builders and remodelers.

Read Full Transcript

When you lay out the uncertainties, all of a sudden it turns out to be this massive invitation to teamwork.

Welcome to builder nuggets, hosted by Duane Johns and Dave young. Hey, our mission is simple. Build freedom, where a couple of entrepreneurs turn business coaches who have dedicated ourselves to helping our builder remodel. Our clients create the most rewarding businesses in the industry. My co-host Duane has been a successful builder and remodeler for over 30 years. He's seen the highs and the lows from the beginning though. Dwayne has been on a quest to find a better way to run a contracting business in 2016, he found that better way. That's how I met Dave, a lifelong entrepreneur and visionary who measures his success by the success of those around him. He reached out one day with a formula on how to transform my business. And the rest is history. Since then, we've teamed up to help hundreds of contractors like you build better businesses and better lives. And now we've decided to open up our network and share our secrets so we can start moving the needle with you. It's collaboration over competition. Each week we bring together industry peers and experts who share their stories so that we can all build freedom together.

We have another returning guest today. She's an award-winning speaker and author. She's one of the senior leaders as strategic coach and her podcast inside strategic coach with Dan Sullivan just broke through the million, download mark her previous builder nuggets episode Noy self was a big hit. So we thought we'd have her back. That's right. We're hanging out with Shannon Waller today and going to have all kinds of fun. Exploring the notion that being uncertain can actually be powerful. Welcome Shannon.

(01:39): Thank you, Dave. Thank you, DJA. Just wonderful to be back here in the, with the B builder nuggets community. Yeah. It's and it's great to see you too. I'm lucky. I got to see you in person a couple weeks ago, and I think many people know that I'm, um, a client or a student, depending on, uh, how, how you wanna refer to it at, uh, at strategic coach. And I have to say it was, you know, my first time being able to go to it in person it's, it's one thing to meet all the other great business owners and get coached by, by you and Dan and the rest of the team, but to walk in and feel that experience in person from going through those glass doors, seeing the artwork, being greeted every step of the way, like it is literally an ex it's like going, it's almost like a hotel experience is what I felt like. Right, right down to the monogrammed bathroom, hand towels.

(02:31): And, uh, Dan's personal chef preparing you lunch. Like it, it was really amazing experience. And you guys have done a great job of taking all the things that you teach within the, uh, with all the tools and everything and the teams, and then applying it. It's like being at a carnival where you get to see all these wonderful things happening at the same time and you see how it all comes, comes together. So gave I found it not only was the content and, you know, the experience amazing, but being able to be immersed in it and see it. And, uh, it was very aspirational for the things that I would like to put in our own businesses. So a little shout out to you guys for that to kick off the show.

(03:14): Well, thank you. And yes, for us being back in person was, is pretty magical. You know, we've always been an in person workshop company. So, you know, I think we pivoted to zoom brilliantly. I think we did a phenomenal job of replicating the experience, but there's nothing quite like seeing one another shaking hands. I'm a hugger. So got to do that too. And it was just really special to have the energy in the room that happens when you've got really, you know, as we like to say, ambitious, creative and cooperative entrepreneurs together. So magic happens. So it was really special. And I have to say, Dan would be over the moon to hear you say what you said about felt like, like a hospitality, like a hotel, cuz that's his model. His picture of a first class experience comes from when he was a kid going and, and hanging out in hotel lobbies cuz as an Ohio farm boy, that was a special experience. And that's what he's always aspired to with coach. So thank you very much for validating that

(04:05): Well you're you're welcome. The little things don't go unnoticed. Like even the bookshelves, the, the recommended books, every person had a, like a real working microphone. There was nothing, no detail was left overlooked and, and real espresso cappuccino machines. It's like proper silverware. It's like, wow. I, I, it's probably the best business launch I've ever had. And then you realize, Hey dude, you're wearing a monogrammed, strategic coach, you know, symbol on your coat. And he is like, yeah, that's because I'm Dan and B's personal chef. I've been cooking for them for 20 years. And it's like, wow, Dan just brought you into his life too.

(04:42): So, oh yeah. Christopher's amazing. Christopher Woods. If anyone wants to check him out, brilliant chef and he prepares amazing food and he puts a lot of love into his food. He loves what he does. Uh, that's his unique ability. So you get all, you get all the things. It is a unique experience. That's really what we're trying to create when you come in. Yeah. Well here at builder nuggets, we've got hats and flip flops. So we're, we're starting off on the right path. But Dave, we've got a long way to go. yeah. We're a long way from the private chef. That's that's for sure. But you know, nothing says freedom, like flip flops though. No nothing says for Shannon, it's not, we're gonna set you up guests of the show, get flip flops. So

(05:19): I'm, I'm looking for, To them. Freedom of wardrobe. freedom of footwear. There you go. Freedom of footwear like that. Yeah. So, you know, Dwayne touched on this earlier. Huge congratulations breaking the million, download mark. That's pretty amazing for your podcast. How did the podcast come to be with you and Dan? Oh my gosh. It was kind of funny. It's interesting because I started, I think I'm, I don't know if I've told you this before, but I started doing my own team success podcast. About eight years ago. I don't have the same numbers. We're getting up there, but we're not quite the million mark yet. So, and did that. And then Dan was starting to do a bunch of podcasts with some partners and then he goes, he basically just said to me, Shannon, we're gonna do a podcast. I had that called inside strategic coach. I was like, oh, okay. it was Dan idea. And he volunteered me and I love talking to Dan. And then eventually what happened was that we were kind of like, I, I, I started tracking things that I wanted to ask Dan about. Cause I'm a huge fan of Dan's thinking his brain, how he approaches things.

(06:25): He's got this amazing way of simplifying complexity, especially for entrepreneurs and his take on the world. And I love his, for lack of better term. I would call it philosophy, but it's really his mindset or his approach. And he just, you know, thinks through things differently than a lot of other people. So I'm like, Ooh, goody I get to go and ask my questions and things that I wanna hear more about. So that's kind of what, what we do. And so I would bring up lists of topics that we thought would be kind of fun or I would, and then it was pretty mushy for a little while in terms of our structure. And finally I figured out, Hmm, I need to simplify this a bit for myself. So figured out what are we talking about? Why is it important and how can people take action?

(07:04): And I would say that's when it really started to kick in for, to be fun or more air easier for me. So I keep, I have a running list on the Trello board, throw ideas at him, or he'll occasionally throw ideas at me. And then I just ask him what, why and how, and that's how the podcast turns out the way that it is. So, but it was, it's been fun. It's been a really fun adventure. And it's just a joy cuz I, I love Dan's ideas. I'm good at asking questions. And I think the audience wants to hear the answers to, and we just have a great conversation and get to record it. And then our team does its magic and then it, it does great things. , there's almost no better process. As far as I'm concerned,

(07:40): He is so quick on his feet too, with his thoughts. I I'd be interested to hear if you've ever flat footed him. If you've ever caught him in a moment where he didn't know what to say. Now he might rephrase the question mm-hmm he might go, oh like, and, and cause this girl is really where it helps to know someone's Colby profile, which is KOL B e.com. Like we talked about last time helps to know how his Clifton strengths play out. So he has ideation. So he is always looking at ideas and exploring them and researching them and reading them, researching them in a short fact finder way. And also he's 10 quick start. So he's by definition, fast on his feet. And so sometimes he will, recontextualize a question. He goes, oh, well I don't look at it that way. I look at it this way and then he'll provide this amazing context and like, oh, that's pretty cool. Hadn't thought about, so he'll do that. But I've never caught him. He's never said I have no idea that has never happened. And probably never will. when ideation is your number one skill, you're gonna have an idea, no matter what.

(08:40): Yeah. Oh, there's this super fun story by the way. So Dan, um, when, when Dan and Babs were first together, Babs took Dan home to meet her mom. You know, Dan has a lot of ideas, so she goes so, but Babs mom was kind of worried that he might run out and she said to Babs, like, aren't you afraid that Dan's gonna run, run out of ideas and Babs response? Ah, that's not the problem. quite the opposite. Probably. Exactly. Yeah. And that's been true and I've well, I met Dan and Babs in 1991. So we're going on a lot of years with, with lots of ideas. And I would say during the last two years of lockdown, even more, he's been more prolific than ever. So, and that's his birthday's coming up and he'll be 78. So

(09:22): The ability to voice the ideas I think is what really, you know, impresses me because I know I have a lot of ideas, but there's a lot of times when I know they shouldn't be said out loud, It's really true. He has an amazing filter. He's also really smart, be clear. So he, he does have a way of saying it. And for him, he he'll tell you he's got a very Associa of mind, like he'll spend two or three hours, you know, doing what he used to do when he was six. Well, not six, sorry. He is probably about eight or 10. He didn't like what he was being educated in. So he would go to the library, he'd skip school to go to the library, pull out the encyclopedia encyclopedia, Botanica close his eyes, set down the book, you know, put a finger down and start reading it and then it would have a reference to something else. So he was kinda curious about, so then he'd go get that book. Well now we could do that on the internet. So he has this mind that just has this amazing. He's just washed over a ton of facts and information and context, which is really fun and that's kind of what he uses. So if you ask him something, it definitely connects to something else that he has thought about, read about all of those things. So yeah, he's, I've never found something. He didn't have a perspective on,

(10:31): Do you have a moment or like an episode or a nugget that just stands out as, wow, this is one of the most memorable ones that is such a hard question to answer Dave, cuz there's been so many. I actually, I can't think of a single one. There's some that just hit me in the moment. I'm like, oh my gosh, I needed to hear that. Mm-hmm right. Like for instance, we, this isn't a podcast. Um, although we have done one on it about not being bothered, we just finished the audio book and the, the video the other day. So it's the next quarterly book that's coming out that we do. And you know, I'll be, he's like, oh my gosh, you know, I have, I didn't realize how many bothers I have. So bothers are things that you just kind of irritate you, they rub you the wrong way, but the point isn't what it is. It's like, how do you handle it? And you ask yourself the question, if I wasn't bothered, what would I be doing?

(11:16): And then you go and do that thing and then look back and the bothers kind of gone. So that's one of the most recent that was like, well that simplified life a lot. I just look at things that way. And it's kind of, it's just kind of fun and, and Dan's playful about it and he's gracious and he's entertaining. He's got some fun stories. So I just like, that's one of the, the latest conversations that was, that has kind of hit me and gets you unstuck. His whole passion and mission is to help people get unstuck and unparalleled and UN UN manipulated. So as I can't pick this one, they're all, they just help everyone reflect on their experience, figure out their own wisdom, get unstuck and keep moving. I mean, that's kind of what Dan's about.

(12:02): Well, and he's done so with a myriad of tools that he's created and a team that helps him to refine them, uh, it starts with a concept and that's what we're gonna dig into today because we spent some time in my class recently. And I think, I think I've been three different sessions around it, but the, uh, the story behind certainty and uncertainty, the concept there, this is really, really powerful. And it's a bit, you know, it's a bit of a paradox because people think, and even in a, in some of our businesses, we've, we've wanted to focus on the power of being certain and certainty and, and what that means. You guys have identified that uncertainty can be a secret weapon. So what's the story behind the certainty versus uncertainty concept.

(12:45): So this really originated out of Dan kind of watching how people handled the various pieces of information coming down about lockdown, the pandemic, the virus, all the things, and in Dan's brain percolates things in a very interesting way as we've been talking about, and he kind of identified that there was actually a leadership line or role that people could, could have been playing. Let me put it that way to say, here's what we know. Here's, what's certain and here's, what's uncertain. And he defined leadership as the, kind of the, the line between the two. And if you, and one of the things he was reflecting on, I'm not sure if this was a hundred percent the Genesis, but this is the contextual story that he told. He's like, you know, if they said, this is what we know, and this is what we don't know.

(13:33): We would've had such trust in the news that we were hearing. Instead we heard this is certain. And then next week, this is certain and it's complete opposite to what was the week before , you know, that kind of thing. So it's like, mm there's something missing here. And so he happened on the idea of the fact that in any, any new circumstance, any new opportunity, any new idea, any new vision, there are, you can be very, very confident about the idea, you know, and we use tool one of our great tools called impact filter to get really clear for yourself and other people, what the intent is. But that relative to that idea, there are things that, you know, that are certain, for instance, all your past history, your experience, your clients, feedback, your, what your customers have said, what works, what doesn't, but then there's also, especially if it's something new or new circumstance, there's a whole bunch of things that are uncertain that you don't know, and the big breakthrough happens.

(14:31): So when, when you can be, when you can very clearly delineate those two things, first of all, it gives people enormous confidence that, okay, there are some, no one quantities to this idea. Excellent. That gives them credibility to the whole, the whole picture. But then the uncertainties had this incredible payoff in that when you lay out the uncertainties, all of a sudden it turns out to be this massive invitation to teamwork. Cuz people are like, oh, you're not invincible. You don't think you have all the answers, but guess what? I can help you find some of those answers. I know how to handle this. I know who and our who, not how thinking, who probably has some information. Oh, that's how we handle those types of issues this way. And all of a sudden, all of this teamwork flooded into the project and there's been several that wasn't, wasn't really there before.

(15:23): And as, as leaders, as entrepreneurs, as business owners, we're very good at buying. We're going this direction go right. And you know, leading and providing direction is part of your job description. But at the same time, sometimes people will be like, well, what about, and it didn't look like there was any room for that, those questions, those doubts there's someone saying, um, yeah, but there's a broken down bridge. ahead have you, do you know about that? There wasn't any room for that. And when you lay it out in terms of here's what we know, here's what we don't know. Here's, what's certain here's, what's uncertain. People can go, oh, awesome. I can help you. So it didn't all of a sudden teamwork didn't look like any kind of opposition. It looked like help. Um, so it's been completely transformational and helped move a whole bunch of projects ahead. And Dan will do a series of these. So he is launching a new lifetime extender series, breakthrough series for people interested in life extension who are clients. And, you know, he started off with number one. I think he's currently in number 17, you know, for that one. So whole bunch more things have become certain and there's still some uncertainties. So it's a cool, interesting and novel way of managing a project and only has to do is keep gathering the certainties and expressing the uncertainties. And that's, that's how, that's how it works.

(16:37): Duane. We, we talked about this, you know, to dump be the dumbest person in the room sort of thing is how, how that can be valuable the other day. But tell us what it's like when, when somebody walks into a room and knows everything. Before I dive into that, Dave, I, I wanted to just, I don't, I think anybody listening here, you probably underestimate the power of being able to understand certainly versus uncertainty. It's a very, very powerful tool to use in conversations, negotiations, all that sort of stuff. And I'm in total agreement. Shannon. I mean, if you have a group of people sitting around trying to work on something and you've identified the certain things, well, it gets boring to talk about the certain things. Everybody kind of knows that that's not exciting. Doesn't really get anybody, but, but the uncertainty that's what catches the attention.

(17:21): Um, right. And it says interesting that you said that, cuz we, I would say it's so more than two, maybe even three years ago, we worked with, with a group of builders on specifically that, you know, and we're big fans of simplification. And you know, one of the things that we talked about was, Hey, you know, in, in, in its simplest form, when you're in the early days of talking to clients, lay out, certainly on one side of the page, uncertainty on the other side, you know, and it's amazing how quickly that conversation goes to the uncertainty. And those are the things that everybody wants to work together on to find, to find the answers, to find the solutions. But yeah, you're right. I mean, you and I talking about the dumbest person in the room, that's just it, you know, if, if somebody comes in and, and is basically presenting maybe a pile or a, a, a big box of certainties that everybody in the room knows is true and, and to be accurate, then that's, that's not a very compelling conversation.

(18:09): Well, even if they disagree, if somebody comes in full of bravado, full of confidence and states, hereby states that this, these things are absolutes, you're going to have a bunch of people sitting back with crossed arms. And even if they don't agree with them, they recognize that this isn't a person that is in receive mode that they just want to broadcast. And one of the things that you shared with me Shannon, is that people wanna be heroes. And this is, you know, this goes back to leadership and being part of a team, but it's hard to help somebody who knows everything. If they've already got it solved. And by clearly laying out the things that are not known and inviting them to come in and, and apply their skill to it, you likened it to giving people the opportunity to be a hero.

(18:55): Yeah. A hundred percent. And, and people really do wanna be heroes, especially to owner of the company, the founder of the company, you know, the person who's got this big idea, the opportunity to help make that idea real and to come, True's pretty exciting when you can make a contribution that way. But so often I think as leaders, we don't, we think we have to have all the answers. We think that people won't like follow us unless we pro you know, project complete and total certainty and confidence about things. But you're quite right. You know, if, if we just come off, come across in that one mode, you have people who aren't engaged. Aren't taking ownership of the project, sitting there, as you said, with their arms crossed because they can see obstacles and uncertainties that we have not given voice to nor have we let anyone else give voice, you know, give their voices to that.

(19:46): And there's something about, and I know this is incredibly important, especially at this point in our work evolution and what people are looking for is they're looking for transparency. They are looking for honesty. They're looking for someone who's not full of it. They're looking for people who can go, okay. I'm very confident in this area, very certain and completely no idea over here. There's a really attractive humility that comes with that, but it doesn't diminish you at all. It just actually makes you human. And again, as I said earlier, invites people to contribute to teamwork. So it's paradoxically brilliant. Yeah. For getting people engaged and, and to take ownership,

(20:26): Wanna level up, connect with us to share your stories, ideas, challenges, and successes. The builder nuggets community is built on your experiences. It takes less than a minute to connect with us@buildernuggets.com, Facebook or Instagram, want access to the resources that can take you and your team to the next level. One call could change everything and, and Shannon, and is not the good, they add down any kind of political rabbit hole. But I mean, I think your, your point about leadership is spot on cuz you just said that we're at a point, a lot of us in our careers, evolutions of businesses, things like that. But I mean, I think even as societies, I, I think a lot of people felt from, from the leadership and this goes across the board. That that's exactly what it was. Is there was a ton of uncertainty out there and they didn't wanna let us figure it out on our own. No, they, they felt like they had to deliver the certainty to us so that we would, you know, versus, and I think that's very powerful what you just said there. I mean that, that's what it is. People want to, cuz there's so much access to information. There's so much that people wanna absorb, bring the UN, bring, put the uncertainty on the table and let's deal with it.

(21:26): Well, and also when you , when you're, when someone does that, it also respects your intelligence respects your contribution. It's not the old command and control model. Like, like that's, I'm sorry. In our new network information world, it's irrelevant. It's at least more and more so and so, and when they have to come back and contradict themselves, your credibility just went right out the window. So I think, yeah, if you wanted really own that position of as a leader, this is a different perspective perhaps for some of you not so not, it's not different at all. You'd be like, of course it makes so much sense, but for certain, certainly people we've been watching on television. Let me put it that way. Clearly saying that there were things that they were uncertain about was not cool. That was not the way that they were told to do things. But I think it would've created a lot more trust, uh, which is now not there. Yeah. Uh, because of the route that they, that they did take. So yeah.

(22:22): And in our industry, Dave has brought this up many times before, you know, there is that bravado. I mean, I think as, as builders, remodelers, you know, that's a big undertaking for any, any person to take home when they're gonna do some work on their home. It's almost like they expect that person that comes the room to be just absolutely full of confidence. So I think, you know, a lot of business owners feel that they have to have the answers to everything. And I think to your point, you could flip the script on all this and that's, it's completely opposite. If you can bring that transparency and say, Hey, wait a minute, here's a half a dozen things. Yes. We all know that's certain, but you know what? Here's a whole boatload of stuff. We don't, let's dive in and, and work on it.

(22:58): Well, and I think there's an, again, there's an honesty about that. There's an authenticity about it. That is incredibly attractive to me. If someone acts super certain, I'm kinda like about everything, I'm like, there's gonna be some stuff you've gotta figure out or should go. Like, I just know that that's how life works. Thank you very much. You can have a plan, but you know, the world has, has its vote to. And so just, oh no, someone to make that assumption, I'm like, mm, something's gonna something bad's gonna happen. I'm already looking for the problems to arise. But if, if someone to say, Hey Shannon, we're gonna do this work with you. Here's what we know. Here's what we don't know. It's now on me to actually be in teamwork with you to help address those issues. And I, my respect just went up dramatically as a result of, of you stating it, that clearly in that bluntly. Cause it means you're not just in it to snow me, you're in it to actually get the result, which is what I'm after. Right? So there's so many things right. About flipping the script. As you mentioned, Dwayne

(23:56): Teamwork, part of that is, is vital too. So when, when you were talking about, Hey, you know, you're, you're not just saying what this, what this person wants to wants to hear or what they're telling you, that you're actually letting the individuals go on the mission with you and the way you, you change it from being your mission to our mission, you just drop the why. Yeah. If you know everything. So that's, we've seen it in, in, I've tried this stuff out myself recently and just say, okay, what don't we know? And it's amazing. It's a rallying point for people. And Dwayne, you kind of opened up the door on this one for me, because Shannon's already got me on a, on a little different path around confidence versus vulnerability. Do you remember that warning shot across the bow? I did. Cuz you brought it up. Yeah. I brought it up. I'm like, I can't wait to talk to Dan about this. And I was thinking about, you know, having the courage to be vulnerable and you're like, oh, don't use that word.

(24:56): No. And, and Dan doesn't love the word other people might. And it's kind of a little bit of a, a hot word right now because vulnerability, when we're talking about vulnerability, most people mean emotional vulnerability. And Dan goes, frankly, so I don't feel emotionally vulnerable he also has self-assurance as the strength let's be clear. So there is that. He said, I'm very confident and there are things I don't know. And there are things that are uncertain. So it, it's not a vulnerability. It's just a transparency mm-hmm . And that, and I think, well, first of all, I don't always want to wanna have to handle everyone else's emotions. just saying, but there is something phenomenal about being transparent. The trust factor grows up, goes up, the credibility factor goes up. You become partners as opposed to advers adversaries and people who have conflicting interests, it puts you on the same page sometimes. Literally. So yeah, it's it's, it is transparency rather than vulnerability in, in Dan's way of thinking.

(25:53): Well, and, and it became my way of thinking too, because there is something powerful about not knowing and being completely comfortable with stating it. That's not vulnerable at all. If you are not comfortable with sharing what you know, or somebody has farted out, you're weak, figure it out, your weakness that you're trying to hide. That creates vulnerability. So like when the person who's up there is talking about everything that they know with, you know, full Ferber and belief and then it's wrong. And all of a sudden somebody points it out. They pointed out a vulnerability. But if, if that person is confidently sharing that these are the pieces I don't have solved yet. It's not a vulnerability at all. It's an amazing strength to have that awareness and to be comfortable with that level of transparency and not embarrassed by it at all. In fact, you know, the more of those things that you can find and surround yourself with people who want to passionately solve those things and have the skills to do it and want to go on that mission, man. That's how you get a lot of things solved and you get a lot of buy in.

(26:56): I just realized there it is a vulnerability. If you are only coming from ego, right. It's totally right. That's, that's what, it's a vulnerability. In which case you've just opened the kimono. all, all those expressions. And like, no wonder, because you're putting yourself out as someone who has got everything together, which is not. So I realize part of that's great. I'm deep steepening my thinking here, because we are so focused on people having what we call unique ability, which is one, two, three things that you are brilliant at, that you are put on the planet to do, to handle this type of situation, to act in this way. There's a whole other conversation around unique ability, but there's only a few things. The rest of the things you're either excellent, competent or frankly incompetent at. So we don't have any expectation that someone is going to be all things to all people all the time. That's just not even in our consciousness or way of operating. So that's why if you're coming from your unique ability, there's gonna be a few things you're incredibly certain about in terms of this project and a whole bunch more where you need other people's talents at play. We need their areas of expertise to make it complete. So there's, but there's no vulnerability in that. The only vulnerability is if you're a hundred percent coming from ego, which I had not had that insight until you just said.

(28:11): Yeah. And I think vulnerability is thrown around probably way too much, a lot like transparency frankly, is thrown around way too much. A lot of transparency that I see is, is pretty opaque or foggy glass. Um but I think what it really is, and I, I, I think about, you know, the ways I talk to young project managers or folks that you're trying to train is, you know, be confident in the things that you don't know, be confident in talking about the things that you don't know. Mm-hmm , you know, it's, it's fine. It's always, you know, it's much better to just stand straight up. I don't know that, but you know what? I know where I can find the answer mm-hmm yeah. That's just, that just opens up the doors to discussion and collaboration, way more than being afraid to, to discuss the things you don't know.

(28:53): Yeah. And I, and I don't know where I know probably school systems or what have you, but we're, we're kind of expected to not to know everything or, you know, that's what you graded on. It's not how the world works, you know, it's we get graded on how well we collaborate, how well we cooperate with other people. That's what the business world, you know, flows. That's, that's the scorecard there, but people come in without, without understanding that. So it's kind of our job to teach them that it's completely fine. Now don't make the same mistake twice. You know, get smart, learn as you go get more work, to increase your, the things that you're certain about and be very confident about saying the things that you're not. I loved how you put that, but again, it's not factory installed the way that we grow people, I think, but it's, it is something we can strongly encourage. We can create a culture where it's okay to say that you don't know. Right. That has to be part of it's like, oh good. Then I can help you. Right. That, that needs to be the culture that we're in.

(29:49): Well, each one of those unknowns is then a challenge is then something that the team can work on and strive towards. Because if you don't know them, nobody can work on them and no progress is, is made. So they're actually a gift. And if you've got a team that's looking for them, discovering them, and you're openly sharing that this is how you're gonna have people come together. They're going to, they're going to be driven to that level of success. They're going to see that they had a part in the mission because they solved something. They, so you get total, total buy-in and, uh, a voice at the table. And then they're, they're going to get better and better at what they're doing. And just another flip, the script moment. I, you know, vision that I had here is, especially with our audience, I, I can see examples being, there's a lot of cases where builders remodelers are going to talk with a client. There's a good chance that they know that client's talking with several other builders, remodelers, and generally a very high caliber, you know? So I think there's that underlying thought that, well, the other guys are gonna have the answers, you know, they might, they might be delivering the answers. And I don't, whereas you can totally flip the script on that. As you said earlier, Shannon, if you bring up more uncertainty than the other folks, that that is probably going to be more valuable information at the end of the day than all the certain stuff that you can, you can blurt out. I mean, it's a, it's, it's super powerful.

(31:12): Yeah. And I think you increased the trust factor when you do that. It's always a little trepidacious. This is usually a big expenditure that people are making next to cars or buying the house in the first place. , you know, the whole thing. So building in that trust is really key and, and pretending you have all the answers is not actually a great way to build trust. No. And you know, book's written about the speed of trust and, and those sorts of things. So again, I think flipping the script saying, what's, what's known, what's not known. And sometimes the homeowner can be the one to address some of those things. Right. They're like, oh, well, I know about that. You're like, great. And all of a sudden, now you're in partnership with them. You've advanced your relationship with them. Way more than your potential competitors have. Yeah. It's just an opportunity

(31:57): When it comes to the uncertainty. Are there any specific ways, like from a certainty, uncertainty aspect, what kind of things do you coach around? Like whether it's other people in a sales role or, you know, people trying to bring teams together. And I think in negotiations a lot, what kind of specific things, tactical things can you do from a certainty uncertainty point of view, we use it all the time for projects, which is kind of how I imagine you guys will be using it too. So we're, we're, you know, we're a coaching company. We come up with new programs, we come up with new innovations inside our business. We come up with new innovations for our clientele and we kind of use certainty uncertainty for all of them. They've it's really been, you know, Dan used to say, the number one tool and coach was impact filter, impact, filter, impact filter pretty much. I'm like, Dan, are you still doing impact filters? He goes, well, when's the last time you saw one? I'm like good point uncertainty, UNC certainty uncertainties now is his favorite tool. And as I said, he'll do like, he's done 17 for the, the latest project. So it's very, and he's actually doing this with his project managers.

(32:59): Each of them is coming to come. They come together, they just met this week and each of them is bringing a project and it helps them to get really clear on what exactly is the project. What's the purpose, the importance, what's the advantage. So getting really, really clear. You still need to have clarity about your idea. If it's fuzzy, sorry, this is not gonna go well, you need to be really clear. So they get really, really clear on the difference it will make. And then what do you already know about it? So what's certain, then there's a nice blue line in the middle of our worksheet and then what's uncertain. And then we have our fabulous who, not how column. So if you don't know, if you're not the right who you have my book right here, you not, how if, if you're not the who who is, and then, and what this small group is doing, and Dan, it's going so well with this group.

(33:46): He's like, okay, now I wanna do it the whole, the whole team, which is pretty exciting. And then they kind of help each other out or they're like, well, I don't know, but my friend, John does, you know, this team member in the company actually has an area of expertise over here. So it just promotes that collaboration when they talk about it. And then at the bottom of our worksheet, we always have insights, decisions and actions. So that's how we use it on a very tactical, practical level. Get clear on the idea, UN you know, certainties uncertainties, who not how insights, decisions, and actions. And it's very concrete. Like I'm not someone I'm, I'm someone who really appreciates the concrete, tangible nature of things. Part of how I, I work and it gets it down to the really practical level, really fast, which I like it. Cuz then people can take action as opposed to just leaving it as this vague idea in their head for somebody who wants to go online and download one, is this a tool that's available yet? Not yet. It's it's, it's kinda why stay on the download?

(34:48): Why talked you through? It's kind of why I talked you through it cuz it's not actually downloaded yet. Yeah. But it actually will. The plan is for it to be one of our quarterly books, we'll have to keep you posted on that. Yeah. Let it, let us know and we'll, we'll get it out there. That's a really important thing that you just touched on because it's, it's like anything else it's, it's, it's something that you have to practice to get comfortable with it and how to deliver it and bring the message across because there's a big difference from, you know, going into a meeting or meeting with some folks and, and just saying, well, there's a whole ton of stuff that I don't know. And we have to figure that out versus you have a list of things, very, you know, tactical things that we don't know this, we don't know this and, and they're important items. They're big ticket items. Uh, my, I, again, I picture, you know, a room, a builder, remodeler architect, designer, homeowner, you know, all the stakeholders and you've taken the time to lay out some really important things that are completely uncertain. We have no, you know, we just don't have details. We don't have numbers. We don't have the facts, the information you're gonna suddenly gain some credibility across the board. Well, and I think, especially right now, we're, we're post lockdown, supply chain. There's some uncertainties there. right. We're having interest rates, interest rates, inflation.

(36:05): How can you get stuff? Price of wood, cost of transportation, all of the, the fuel costs, all of those things. Like if you don't acknowledge those, I'm sorry. You're not gonna come across very well at all. So just laying those out again, promotes trust, credibility, all the things we've been talking about. But he, but to your point, Dwayne, I can totally imagine sitting around with this, your small project team and you know, and maybe, oh my gosh, one of my clients painted their entire meeting room wall in whiteboard paint. I thought that was the coolest thing. I got to write all over the wall. It's a blast, you know, but just writing down, okay, let's clarify the, what are we talking about? Clarity on this project, timeline, cost budget, all the things team who the team is, then what do we know? And you just blist it out whiteboard of the wall, whatever you're writing on. So what's certain what don't we know. And then how can we make some progress towards those answers? And if we're not the right who's, who is, oh my gosh, you're gonna have one of the best, most energized confidence building meetings of life that you've ever had. Cause it's super practical, super on point. And you'll actually be making decisions, making progress as you go through the project. I mean, that's a really easy and straightforward way to have the conversation you could do this week.

(37:18): Yeah. It it's such an amazing tool and I can't help, but think of cuz this is what I do. I like to take thinking from over here and a tool over here and something over here and like Colby and strategic coach and clip and strengths and then smash them all together. So as you were going through that, I was thinking, wow, this is an amazing tool to embed in your IDs when you're running EOS. If so for when you're like identifying, describing, and solving what a perfect tool to embed right there, and then you're gonna have your takeaways coming, uh, coming right out of it. It also made me think of another concept that Dan talks about often. And he says that procrastination is wisdom and I have a slight tweak, different tweak to that. I, I think it's enlightenment. I think the wisdom actually comes when you take action.

(38:08): But the recognition of it is the enlightenment, but I would not be surprised if Dan has already said this for uncertainty because uncertainty is wisdom. Mm-hmm as well. It's a moment of enlightenment in a moment of clarity and a huge moment, a huge opportunity to figure out where you need to direct your energy or your resources. Yeah. And that's what we're trying to do. It's a sh becomes a shortcut and Dan is constantly looking for shortcut. So if you can shortcut things and get to here's what we need to solve and get everybody on board with solving it, this is, this is how you get. So, and I think looking at uncertainty too, I see uncertainty as your blind spots, you know, I mean you're high performing, you know, I have highly motivated people, business owners. That's what they wanna know. They wanna know, help me with my blind spots. Yeah. Right. You know? Yeah. Don't tell me about all the things that I already know or, or as a group we know let's. Yeah. Tell me what I don't know.

(38:59): And I think to both of your points, this is where this, this is where the opportunity for movement and progress and, you know, solving problems comes in. It's not from what we do know, but from what we don't know and put and putting answers to those things. So yes, this is what people want to be engaged. This is where people can contribute. They can't really contribute to the stuff that's already been there. Done that. Right. So it's, it's huge. And, and to your point, Dave, one of our other fabulous tools, actually the tool that kicked off the entire program called the strategy circle. One of the things you figure out is your goal, the end result. So what does it look like when it's done and done well, relative to that result, what are all the obstacles in the way? And then once you've brainstormed all of those, what are the specific strategies to address them?

(39:39): So there's, there's a relationship between certainty, uncertainty and strategy circle, but they're a little different, but one of the lines on the bottom of the strategy circle, or actually the line is Dan says all of those obstacles that seem to oppose your goals are actually the raw material for achieving them. So that's almost, you know, that's exactly Dan's point is those things that are uncertain or actually the raw material that you need to figure out to accomplish where it is the heck you wanna go. And so not knowing those or ignoring those or, or not having a place for people to, to express them means that you won't be able to accomplish where it is. You wanna go, they become your map, you use the compass to determine them, and then you solve them. It becomes your map, right?

(40:21): It's your, oh, I love that. You, yes. They're definitely your map, but you also are building it off of, if you think about our concept of the gap and the gain, you're building it off of the gain. You're building it off of the wins, the progress to your knowledge, the certainty that you already have. So you're not starting from zero, which is where a lot of people think they're starting with a new project and you actually do have a lot of capabilities and knowledge to bring to things. So that's also powerful. You have a lot of things that you can bring to bear and then there's things you still need to figure out. Mm-hmm well, Shannon as always thank you for your time and your wisdom and, uh, bringing some uncertainty to the conversation. so who, the thought, all this thought would be like such goodness. Right? So what, what have you got as we ask everyone to close things out, you know, what's exciting you over the next six months to a year over strategic coach.

(41:12): Oh my gosh. Uh, a few things actually. So we're back in person as of March. And I feel like there's a massive pent up demand for speeches and travel and things. And I can't believe my calendar cause it's, I thought it was busy before, but it's insane. Uh, 20, 23 is looking more spacious. I'm looking forward to that. Uh, but I'm looking forward to actually taking something that I would call an excellent ability, which is speaking to being something that's unique. So I am getting some coaching and some training of my own by this awesome woman named dear Dre who happens to be a client called crazy good talks. So I'm super, I'm excited about expanding my capabilities and contribution that way. And then just seeing people, as I said, seeing people in person, traveling's still a bit of a pain, but it's worth it to see all of the awesome humans I get to hang out with on the other end. So that is actually what I'm most looking forward to.

(42:02): Well, thanks for being an awesome human on our show. This has been super fun. We get to have a great time thinking about thinking, which is one of my favorite things to do. And yeah, we really appreciate it. Like we said, your other episode really got a lot of people talking and we love introducing people to strategic coach and just having some of these discoveries for themselves. It's been huge for me, my team, the things that we've learned and the other, the other things that we're, we're pulling in and sharing with each other. What's the best way for somebody who is curious about some of this stuff to learn more

(42:37): Well, first of all, thank you for having me on it is such a joy to talk to like-minded people, um, and really appreciate your audience too, for listen in and finding this content. Interesting. So if it resonates, um, strategic coach.com is the place for all things. We have tons of downloads, tons of free stuff. Great ways you can check out if, if it is something you're interested in to check out our webinars and our live events, where we introduce people to coach and to see if it's the community that you also want to be a part of as well as build builder nuggets. So yeah, for like-minded ambitious, curious cooperative, ambitious entrepreneurs, it's a great place to be.

(43:13): Well, thank you again. And for our listeners out there, you know, urge you to take some action on this stuff. I mean, this is really powerful. We also have recently had a milestone, you know, we've several episodes ago gotten past 25,000 downloads. Um, we've had lots of engagement. We've had lots of folks that have reached out to the show contacted Dave and I we've helped quite a few folks implement a lot of the nuggets that you hear on these shows. So yeah. Take some action and uh, move the needle. Shannon. Thanks again. Oh, congratulations. And thank you.
Hey, thanks for listening, Duane and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome. Got a cool tip idea for a show problem that you haven't been able to solve, or maybe just struggling to figure out what you need next and where to get it. We can help hit us up@buildernuggets.com and start building freedom.

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