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People want to do business with People. What types of things are you doing in your business, or for your team, that could be shared with others? Join us for a conversation with returning guest Pamela Durkin as she urges all of us to do more storytelling and less reporting. 

Show highlights include:

  • One “sneaky” way for small business owners to reach their ideal audience faster (2:05) 
  • How to become comfortable speaking on podcasts by the end of the day (2:44) 
  • The weird way your social media captions repel your ideal clients (4:33) 
  • The “Storytelling Secret” which ensures you always have an overflowing pipeline of projects (5:28) 
  • How to easily pump out double the amount of content you do right now (without taking any extra pictures) (7:16) 
  • The “Story Magnet” System for never competing on price again (7:58) 
  • The “Infinite Ideas” technique for creating an infinite amount of content by adding 10 minutes to yoru day (10:49) 
  • This 3-step storytelling formula hypnotizes your ideal audience until they work with you (12:14) 
  • Why this “magical skill” skyrockets your marketing ROI, catapults yoru closing rate, and enchants top-tier talent and partners to your team (17:40) 

If you’d like to read Pamela’s book, Elevate!, you can find it on Amazon here. If you’d like to set up an interview to see how she can help your business, send her an email at pam@pamela-durkin.com. And you can check out her website at https://pamela-durkin.com/

To get the most out of this podcast, or connect with Duane and Dave, head over to https://buildernuggets.com and join our active community of like-minded builders and remodelers.

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So I sat there and I thought to myself, wow, what an impact, not smiling had

Welcome to builder nuggets hosted by Dwayne Johns and Dave young. Hey, our mission is simple, build freedom. We are a couple of entrepreneurs turned business coaches who have dedicated ourselves to helping our builder remodeler clients create the most rewarding businesses in the industry. My co-host Dwayne has been a successful builder and remodeler for over 30 years. He's seen the highs and the lows. From the beginning though, Dwayne has been on a quest to find a better way to run a contracting business. In 2016, he found that better way. That's how I met Dave, a lifelong entrepreneur and visionary who measures his success by the success of those around him. He reached out one day with a formula on how to transform my business and the rest is history. Since then, we've teamed up to help hundreds of contractors like you build better businesses and better lives. Now we've decided to open up our network and share our secrets so we can start moving the needle with you. It's collaboration over competition. Each week, we bring together industry peers and experts who share their stories so that we can all build freedom together.

(00:59): Our guest today has a magnetic personality. In fact, she's a past guest from episode 19, titled B magnetic. She's a past president of a S I D Florida. The south chapter served on the board of architecture and design in New Jersey and has been a speaker at the IDs Southwest Florida conference as a professional designer for more than 29 years, she is passionate about helping other industry professionals run better businesses from Naples, Florida. It is my pleasure to welcome Pamela Dukin back to the builder nugget stage. Welcome Pam. Yes, round two, round two, the first one was so good and at so much positive energy, we couldn't wait to get it back and make it a regular occurrence that's for sure. Absolutely. She is now a past guest to becoming a regular here on the podcast. And Pam te I've gotta ask, you know, on top of being a business owner, you've written a book that'll elevate. You do some coaching. You do some consulting continue to get involved in speaking engagements. I mean, that's a lot on your plate, but what have you been up to recently? Yeah,

(02:03): Well, you know, really started doing a lot more podcasts, making a concerted effort. So, you know, we've been, and I'm trying to get me on bunch of different podcasts and I've luckily had had the opportunity to be on quite a few so far and continue to get the word out. And you know, that just kind of goes back to leveraging your reach, right? We always talk about how can we, as small business owners go farther, faster and get in front of our, our ideal audience. And one way to do that is do speaking engagements and podcasts. So I encourage other people as well to use that as a good tool to get in front of more people faster. And that's not easy for some people that's daunting, isn't it? I mean, I guess if you're not good on your feet, but here's an here's, you know, like anything else, if you're one of those people that's worried about answering questions and talking, you know, off the cuff, then you just prepare yourself, you prepare questions or you ask the person that's going to interview to prepare questions so that you can feel comfortable and be as much of yourself as possible. So, I mean, you sent me some ideas for what we were gonna talk about, and that was helpful for me. So I think that you, anyone can be really good at being interviewed. And when we talk about things that we love and that we're really good at, and, you know, things that, you know, design or marketing or whatever it is when we're passionate about it, it just comes through. Right. We know how to talk to we Don, to talk to clients so we can certainly talk to podcasters or you,

(03:35): Yeah, that would be my biggest recommendation for anybody that, you know, either hasn't done a lot of it, not comfortable with doing it, getting started doing it. That that's the best first that pick a topic you're you, you're somewhat comfortable with. You're passionate about, it'll be a lot easier to talk about it, for sure. When you were on with the last episode, it's still a great episode, be magnetic, you know, just talked about getting that per getting your personality out there, engaging with the people you're talk, talking to whether that's clients or trades, teammates, whoever I, I think about some of the interviews I did over the last few weeks, especially down at the builders show. You know, when you look at a lot of people that are really having success from the media front and on the various social media channels, it is engaging, you know, they're, they're putting out content, they're, they're telling stories are putting a personality to it that the listeners, the viewers obviously enjoy and, and, and, and it resonates with, so when you and I spoke, I mean, we were talking about different things going on and what would be a great topic to have you back on.

(04:32): I, I loved it when you brought up the more storytelling and less reporting. Why don't you just dive a little bit deeper into that and what, you know, your thought behind that? So, I had started to notice when I was really looking at what other designers were putting out there, because of course now I'm coaching designers. And so I wanna be more versed in what other designers are doing. And so I was looking at what, what was getting put out there. And invariably it was so much reporting. And by reporting, I mean that someone would post a picture and say, isn't this amazing, or look at that tile instead of, I want you to dig deeper than that, because you have to realize that that post is for you, the designer, the person that posted it and not for your client, that person that's gonna consume it. And so one of the thing, things that I would encourage everyone to ask themselves, when they're getting ready to post something is write what you would normally write and then go back and look at it and say, why, why is this important?

(05:34): Why does my client need to know this? Why does a potential client, why is this so important that I thought I should post about it now? Yes, beauty is part of what we do. But as professionals, as builders, as designers, we know there are thousands of decisions that go into making a beautiful space. And so I think it's our job to start educating a little bit about why, what all the things that happen behind the scenes. And we can do that through storytelling. And so I think we need to be better storytellers and you only get better at it by doing it. Yeah. And I have to agree. I mean, if you look out across the L I think, especially in our industry, when it comes to construction, building remodeling, even on the architecture design side, we have some pretty incredible photos. All of us, we do some really killer work. And I think a lot of times we all think that that's what we're putting out there when really that's, that's not, I mean, yes, it's eye-catching and people see it, but what happens is we, we're just, we're just throwing out stuff and becoming noise. There's cuz you can go from feed to feed and company, to company builder, to builder. It's the same stuff. It is truly it's that story. What are you telling about? You could put up that same picture, dive into it, tell a story behind that picture, how it happened. Even things like engaging, whether it's the human aspect, seeing some people in that space versus just the empty space. I mean, there's lots of things you can do, but I, I love the aspect of, of creating the story. Give some, I guess, give some examples around what, what, what a story could be because for some folks, I think again, they feel like they're just, they're posting stuff, they're getting it online. They're saying, Hey, take a look at this beautiful transformation or whatever, but what do you mean by really diving into the story? How, how far should people go with that?

(07:20): Well, so here's an interesting expansion on what you mentioned is that you can tell a story behind the photo. First of all, it makes us stand out and it makes us people realize that we're people as opposed to a faceless company. So that connection is what's gonna attract people to us. I think when we do just report, then people have nothing to compare us to someone else except by price. And we never, never wanna be compared by price. So the nice thing about storytelling is that you can literally even post the same picture or the same parts of pictures and tell different stories. So you can start to tell what I would say, like a micro story about something that happened in a project that you were working on. And you could literally just talk about one conversation that you had with your client that made all the difference.

(08:11): And one example I can give you is when I was working on a kitchen, in a condominium, we were changing out the layout and we were deciding whether or not to do a high bar or a low bar. And the conversation came around to whether or not the client wanted to be able to see all the way through the kitchen or if they felt that the bar, the higher bar covered the sink and maybe whatever else was going on in the kitchen and reduce that visual noise, like when you're entertaining, you know, there's dishes and all kinds of stuff. And so we talked about that a little bit and ultimately she decided to go with the high bar, but I mean, even recounting that conversation of the discussions that happen, where you're giving your client thoughts about the pros and cons of whatever a decision is, and then working through it together as to why it's a better solution for them. I mean, that's amazing a potential client can then have some insight into what it's gonna be like to work with you and how you're gonna make them think about details that you probably wouldn't have thought of before. And that again, brings them to you. They want, they're gonna be attracted by those, those stories.

(09:26): That's the key point right there. And it ties in so well with your earlier episode of B magnetic, when it comes right down to it, your story is your, the whole polarity of your magnet is based on the stories you tell and what you want to project. And if you're projecting stories about human experiences, you're going to win that humanity versus commodity battle. And people are going to value the, the insight that you have because without the story, without your personal context, you're not delivering anything on that. Tile becomes your sales rep and that tile is impersonal. So this is totally resonating with me. Yes. And that tile can be bought from a million different places for a million different prices. So we wanna get that out of the equation. And it's more the interaction that humor experience and we're in a creative field. And we are to your point, Dave affecting people's most sacred space. We are affecting their daily life. And I think the design professionals all feel that way and approach all their projects that way, but we don't talk about it enough. And so the perception on the public side is that we're just a mechanism to get a product. And we are reinforcing that by continually talking about that. So yes, I want us to dive deeper into what we bring to the table. And one really easy technique that everyone can do to help with their storytelling is literally when you're on your job sites is just write down in your notebook or in your phone. When a conversation happens, when a meaningful conversation between you and your client or you and your tradesperson or you and your subs happens and write that story down, and then you can expand on that or even just write that, you know, two sentences along with your picture. So cuz there's so many conversations happening behind the scenes on our client's behalf. And I think that that's a good thing to be talking about.

(11:29): There's really an unlimited number of experiences and interactions going on on a job site all the time. And it's interesting because a lot of builders, I think, feel that there, what am I gonna post? Like what's, what's interesting. It's it's day to day stuff for you, but the conversation you know, maybe not the super technical ones, but you know why only one bathtub can fit in this particular house and, and how that, how that changed everything on a project can be a very interesting story to educate a client about the steps that you need to go through to make sure that your project is professionally managed as an, as an example. But it's this stuff is everywhere. It's just like diamonds on the beach in Africa, back in the day, it's just lying on the ground and you, and go around and pick it up. What are the fundamentals of a good story?

(12:16): So there are a couple, so believe it or not, the good stories have, this is gonna be shocking, a beginning, a middle and an end. And why that's gonna be shocking is that most people start with either the middle of the story or the end of the story. So hence the final photo with the report about what, you know, what has come to pass, right? Instead I want people to think if you can write the beginning of the story, which is what was the normal before were you got involved in the project? What was the client dealing with? What was the frustration? What was the situation that they were managing at the time before you came along? And then the middle of the story is what's that aha moment. Like what happened when things began to change and it started to evolve into something different, something better, you know, it could even be something very small or something big, but when was the, you know, when did the winds start to change and everything started to come together.

(13:24): And then the end of the story is how has the client or the project been forever changed from this moment forward what's happened that they, that had not even occurred in the beginning, right? Where their original normal is now they're in the transformation phase. And so are they wiser? Are they happy? Have they learned a lesson? Is there some nugget that you can pull out? And that's, you know, that's the general anatomy of a story, but we tend to forget the beginning and showing that whole process of how they move through where they were and then where they've gotten to. So it's kinda like a character, you know, a, a story without developing. It is like a character that you haven't developed first. If it's just a picture of a superhero, you have no idea what that person had to overcome. And, and that's, you know, you see that this in writing as well, the, the setting of the state agent building it up a little bit, it's intriguing.

(14:19): Yeah. And some details just to some details, not like details of the details, make the design or it's all in the details. Cuz if I hear that one more time, everybody stopped posting about that. Those two things stop doing that because I've seen it so many times that it doesn't mean anything anymore, but I'm talking about real conversations that you're having. And this goes back to just, you know, capturing those conversations, real meaningful questions that clients are asking you to advise them on and how, you know, how would we do this? Or what do you do in this space? And a lot of times what clients think they're gonna use a space for when they get into the programming phase with a builder or with a designer, they realize that it could be so much more than just the label, right? It could really fit their lifestyle. And so those are a again, great stories to be telling of how you're adding all that color. You know, that figurative color to a space and to their lives by being, being, you, being a professional and being creative

(15:20): And the more memorable it is, the more it will resonate with them. The more it will stick, the more they will associate it with you and your business or the experience that you delivered. Tell us about stories that stick. So I'm reading a book right now called stories that stick it's by Kendra hall. And she really talks about how well she really talks about her journey in how she started studying stories and how stories make a difference, how people are connected and how it affects when they buy things or why they buy things. In the beginning of the book, I haven't finished the book, but in the beginning of the book, she talks about a story where her and her husband, I believe are in Italy and they just happen to wander into her perfume shop. And the gentleman behind the counter starts talking about this one perfume. And he didn't talk about the fragrant notes of the perfume or the bottle or how much it costs. But he talked about the story of how this perfume came to be. And you have to read the book because it's incredible, but she talks about the story.

(16:31): And she said, by the end of the story, they hadn't even smelled the perfume or knew how much it cost, but they knew they had to have it. And she said at that moment, she realized the power of a story. So she likens it also to, if you've ever heard about a new restaurant and you've heard so many wonderful things about it, that you don't even, you don't know how the food tastes, but you are determined to go there and try it out. And so that's the power of storytelling. And she goes into some of the things that actually happened to us physically when a story touches us. And it's a really fascinating book on how we can apply that in such a meaningful way in our business. Wanna level up, connect with us, to share your stories, ideas, challenges, and successes. The builder nuggets community is built on your experiences. It takes less than a minute to connect with us@buildernuggets.com, Facebook or Instagram

(17:31): Want access to the resources that can take you and your team to the next one call could change everything. What are the parts of the story? What makes a story stick? Yeah, she gives a couple examples and thank God I wrote these down, cuz y'all are giving me like I'm doing a book review, but it's, it's worth it. I tell you. And if you guys if you, if you all read it, I would love to hear what you think it as well. But she talks about what makes a great story. And the first thing is identifiable characters. So the person receiving the story needs to feel like they can identify with this person. So if you have a strong niche, if you know exactly who your perfect future client is and who you're gonna be talking to, then you wanna be bringing in some of those elements into your story so that they make a connection. For instance if your perfect client is a stay at home, mom, you might be talking about something that a stay-at-home mom would be, would be using in their everyday life.

(18:35): And so maybe it's a stroller or something like that. The second thing is she wants you to use authentic emotions. So you need to be talking about what that person was feeling during this story. And so you can use things like frustration or curiosity or wonder or things like that, but you wanna get a little bit more, like I said, under the covers, right? Not reporting, but talking a little bit, you're sort of setting the scene, right? You're telling what this person's going through and what's kind of going on in their mind. And then, you know, you have this sign, a forget moment, sort of something that happens and it can be small and very detailed, but something that happens that makes a difference and it could be the moment your client walked in and, and literally like gasped when they saw the beautiful space that you designed, put their hand over their mouth and literally like a breath in, or put their hand on their heart.

(19:32): Right. That's a significant but small moment and people can relate to that. And so, you know, I want you to start incorporating some of these emotional moments into your storytelling. And then the final piece is specific descriptive detail and maybe even something unexpected. So I know you're gonna wanna, you know, maybe describe the space or something like that. But I think getting a little bit deeper than that, right. And using imagery and kind of painting the picture, it just kind of draws the receiver in to your world. And then they start to something in their mind, they start to create this place in 3d. So those are the four elements of creating a great story.

(20:22): I think about all the opportunities for this too. So, I mean, this can be used in every aspect. I mean, in some of your initial conversations with, with other trade part partners, with business associates, I mean clients on the very early conversations building rapport, this can be, this is a good strategy all the way through. Absolutely. I mean, even with working with other people, you want them to buy into how passionate you are and how passionate you are about your business, about your clients and doing great work together. I mean, of course you can always talk about these types of stories in other ways, not just with end user clients, but with those strategic partnerships where, you know, when you have a great group of people that continually work, there is nothing better in the world. And I think Dave mentioned it earlier about even talking, you know, bringing your subs or pictures of people that you work with also into your marketing efforts. And again, if you've been working with somebody that you know, is fantastic and goes beyond, above and beyond all the time, why wouldn't you talk about them in your social media, because then your potential clients know, wow, they're really gonna take care of me because they have some people that they have surrounded themself with that are incredible. Yeah.

(21:42): And Dave, I probably mentioned, you know, you, some of these as a strategy, not, not trying to say this is any kind of a sales tactic, but I mean, at the end of the day, this is, it's just a better way to communicate. Isn't it though? Well, it's, it's a way better way to communicate. And there's, there's so many different things to, to take away from this. We often talk on the show that, yeah. When, when we're talking about say it's storytelling or marketing, everybody's thinking about the, the focus is always on the client, but what if you, you know, you are telling project manager stories or you're because you want to attract project managers. So, you know, I've joked around before, if you wanna attract the duck, use a duck call. If you wanna attract a moose, you use a moose call. So it's what sort of significant stories are you going to tell for those audiences? And in order to tell those significant, it's not always, you, it's the significant people who are part of your team are part of your universe who should be telling them that. And that's the relatability back.

(22:38): So, you know, imagine an architect who sees a project manager and client interaction, they're going to have confidence in that project manager because they heard first hand to, or they, you know, got to experience that significant emotion that came with the retelling of that, of that story. And you just apply it through all your interconnected audiences and boom, the power of your magnet has just gone way up. And also like, I really like the point about significant moments and tying it to significant people. If you start to picture them as being really significant to the success of your business or to the success of your magnet, it becomes easier to, to look for the things that they're doing or have them tell you their stories. So probably one of the things that a, an owner, you know, a business leader gets stuck in is having come up with all the store, raise themselves in going through all this. There's an abundance of stories and find contributors on your team, like develop a whole media network culture within your organization. And your magnet will continue to continue to grow with the, with the polarity that you want.

(23:45): I would just say, I would even ask for people to open up a little bit about what they do in their spare time, because, you know, back when my kids were younger, they both were in baseball and we would go to, they would run, travel and everything. And we would go to, I, I think it was 180 games a year and neither of them went pro. So they kind of, that, that, that didn't work out well for me. But so I used to talk about baseball a lot. Now people literally come up to me, I'm talking five years later, how are your boys doing? Are they still playing baseball? So those little nuggets, those things about you personally, and this goes to your project managers, I mean, especially your project managers, the guys that are on, or the supers whoever's on the site every day. Yes. Highlight those people because when someone, a potential client comes to you and says, oh, and you say, you're gonna get, you know, you're gonna get Tim. And you're like, oh, Tim, is that the guy that does the fishing or whatever it is. I mean, you're, you're really he humanizing and, and really get letting them get to know you and your company and your team well ahead of time. So I think it's an excellent strategy

(24:54): I can understand. And I can see why folks will struggle to, to tell stories. I think it's easier at the end of the day than most people think you said before, capturing writing things down, things that are happening on the job site, but yeah, It's the easiest way to what can folks do to become frankly, to just become better at telling stories? I mean, what are some, what are some tactical things that people can do to become better at that? I mean, practice makes perfect. I mean, if nothing else, generally the industry's not doing a great job now. So anything that you put a little bit more effort into now that you know, what you know will certainly be an improvement. And so I honestly think writing down what happens during the day is the best story, because it's real life. It's not something where you have to, you know, fabricate all this stuff. You're just telling what happens. And it's fascinating because you're pulling back the curtain on what, how happens, you know, in the day to day, workings of interacting with clients or interacting with trades or interacting with subs and who doesn't wanna know what really happens before they hire you. I mean, that's the thing it's like our industry is like a big mystery to so many people, either they've, you know, never hired a designer or a builder before, or they have, but it wasn't us like it, you know, we're not coming back.

(26:15): So we're not a familiar entity to them. And so they wanna know what it's gonna be like to work with us before they work with us. And how do we do that? I mean, one of the ways is to do it through stories and just telling, going on day to day, how we handle things, things, you know, when there's a decision to be made, how did we present the two options? How did the client come to the final decision? Did they ask us for advice and then go ask friends? Or what did they do? And so knowing all of that information just is so helpful. It's comforting. Clients are really stressed, cuz they just don't know no matter what, you know, no matter how much we educate people or we talk about this, the reality is there's people who either don't like it or are not good at it. That's evidenced by the fact that they're not doing it now they're procrastinating on it. They're not confident and they're not going to be motivated to develop this skill. What are some of their options?

(27:17): Well, first of all, I would ask them to think about what's really important in their business. Us. We do tend to get consumed by things that actually don't matter. And I think filling our pipeline and having better clients and amazing projects is probably number one on most people's list. And this is one way to do it. So I challenge them to go back and think about, is this really not important? Cuz I think it is. Yeah. I mean certainly there are other ways to get better at this. Of course you can read books and get online or you can employ if someone in your organization is really good at it. We talk about, have you ever heard this saying where you could be on the, a bus but in the wrong seat? Yep. Or be in the right seat when you're in the right seat on the right bus. It's like everything makes sense. There could be someone in your organization who is really good at storytelling and you could literally give them the information and say, tell them to, you know, make it better. That's and so there's certainly people out there and sources out there maybe in your organization, maybe outside of your organization, like copywriters and things like that.

(28:33): Yeah. That's exactly where my head was going when I asked that question and I'm so glad that you, you went there because a lot of the, a lot of the coaching and training that I I've been getting has said, stop trying to beat it, stop trying to improve everything. If you're not good at it, you need to find, it's not, how do I do it? It's who should be doing it for me. And as you're telling us about that, I started thinking about somebody who may not have the creativity or feel like they have the skill of storytelling, maybe an expert that when they're asked the right que questions just delivers gold every single time, but they can't think of the order. They can't think of the, the story, but they're a total well of great information. So if you have somebody else on your team, a social media manager or somebody who's a really skilled interviewer work together with them, let them interview, you ask them about what was, what, you know, it's your experience on this, on this site and have the, you know, if you're not confident leading the story, then be confident in somebody else leading you through it so that you can get your voice out and heard because a lot of people don't feel comfortable with it, but they have so much valuable information that the, the key becomes, how do you get it?

(29:46): How do you get it out of them in a way that they're comfortable with? Yeah. And I think a great way to start. I know that I know some people, I I've done it a little bit myself. It's probably something I should get back to. I used to enjoy it, but you know, journaling to some degree, but even if, even if it's an end day, you know, one of the things that I did for a while was just at the end of the day, I would just jot down things from the day, you know, before I went to bed at night, it was just what were some of the exciting things, cool things that happened today. I think that's a great way to go back and, and be able to provide stuff. If you get with someone that can help you create some content, you know, somebody, whether it's ghost writing, whatever it might be, you know, somebody that can help you today's point get your words out, get your thoughts out. So that you're more comfortable presenting it, but you've gotta capture that stuff first. You do. So you've gotta capture the moment. You've gotta write it down, keep a notepad with you, put it on your phone, iPad, something like that journal at the end of the day. But I, I, I think that's a key component you've gotta capture it for.

(30:42): Yeah. And I think, yeah. I think there was a good nugget in there about, you could literally have anyone interview you interview style because we've all been on job sites where clients ask a question and then, and then we answered it. I mean, we've all been there and we're probably all pretty good at it. So you could lit really have someone else in your organization, ask you an open ended question and then you answer it. That could be all recorded. You could upload it to a transcription service, like which will literally put it into text for you in minutes. And that is the basis for your next P of genius. Awesome. That's very cool. So as we always do, you know we have to ask you, what's exciting for you. What do you, what if you got in store for the next six months this year what excites you? What are you gonna get yourself involved with?

(31:37): I'm really excited to start getting out more and seeing people face to, and that that's really exciting. It was just at KBI last week or two weeks ago. I don't even know two weeks ago maybe. So it was really great to meet so many people that I've met online physically in person. So I've been lining up a lot more speaking engagements to go speak to designers or do interviews like this. So that's really exciting for me because I it's a lot of fun to kind of spread the word on how we can make it easier. I mean, it's just not an easy business, especially right now for everybody. And so anything that we can make business easier and attracting the right business easier, I'm all for. So I'm really excited about that. And we've also been in the process of beta testing doing some lead generation for designers, meaning they're, you know, they're having a difficulty carving out time to find who their perfect future client is. And so I'm starting a beta test on how to find those people for them. And then what the nurture series is, meaning handling all of the, the mailings and things that will get, you know, move people through that process. So when they're ready, they pick up the phone and call,

(32:53): Keep us posted on how that goes. That's, that's an important and valuable valuable service. We want, wanna hear your stories, not a report on how that goes. Yes, I will do my best start telling those stories and getting into like anything else. We all have these frustrations with whatever it is that we're working on in our business. Sometimes it's not moving fast enough. Sometimes it's not the quality that we want. And so, you know, just being able to tell these stories and talk to other people, it just really helps to know that we are not the only ones going through this and feeling it so podcasts like this is, is really such a helpful tool for people to be able to sit and listen to people all over the country and just know that it's not just them. It's not just their state. It's it's, you know, we're all, we all have moments. We all have highs and lows and, and this is how we get through it. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Yeah. It's it's one that's going to stick for sure. And yeah, we can't wait to hear how, how the rest goes. I hope

(33:51): You enjoy the book. Yeah, yeah. We're gonna check it out for sure. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the book. Like I said, I've already, it's already downloaded. I can't wait to get some, get some time here and, and listen to that. Thank for your time. And I mean, what you're doing, I think you're, you're spreading a good message. You do, you bring a great energy to all the things you're involved with to anybody that wants to learn more, learn more about you, your book, it in touches you, how can they find you? Yeah. So if you, if anyone wants to get in touch with me pretty much always on Instagram, you can find me at Pamela. Dukin all my contact information is there. So in if any time you wanna get in touch with me personally, that's fine. But just look for me there. I'm there all the time. Sounds good. Thanks again. All right. Thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for listening, Dwayne and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome.

Hey, thanks for listening, Dwayne and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome. Got a cool tip idea for a show problem that you haven't been able to solve, or maybe just struggling to figure out what you need next and where to get it. We can help hit us up@buildernuggets.com and start building freedom.

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