It's time to rip the cover off what really works to ditch addiction, depression, anger, anxiety, and all other kinds of human suffering. No, not sobriety. We're talking the F word here, freedom, wheelchair straight from the trenches what we've learned from leaving our own addictions behind and coaching hundreds of others to do the same. And since it's such a heavy topic, we might as well have a good time while we're at it.
(0:34) All right, welcome back to the alive and free podcast. Okay, this week, we're gonna go a little bit deeper and a little more personal. Lee wants to interview me a little bit more. So I think it would be good to bring you guys up to speed. So a while back, gosh, it was a few months ago, I last September, I went to the Himalayas, right. And I came back. And then a few months ago, Lee interviewed me about my experience there and all the things that happened and the kind of disillusionment and the desire to be like straightforward, and really honest with everything that we're doing, and really hold open that door possibility for other people. And, as some, I guess, hint of context. Over the course of the months since then, what I have been experiencing, is the kind of disillusionment that I taught, I said at the time that it was like, everything that I wished would happen in a way that I wish it hadn't happened. And the thing is, it kept happening. So like, what what has happened within me is this bodily incapacity to like want to cling to any theory or belief system, or dogma, or any human thought for very long, like I can get excited about things. And then in much shorter order than it's ever happened. Like, in the past, I've been able to go for some time, obviously, decades, and then years and months and stuff, really kind of buying into this worldview, that I picked up somewhere or pieced together and, and found some very useful stuff with and then at a certain point, I would run into an end where it didn't cover all the details of life. And then I would start to open my eyes and see, well, there were a lot of other details that I happen to just shove under the rug. And eventually, I would get to this point where I was like frustrated and would need to find a better way of engaging with life. And every time I honestly felt like I was letting go of theories and not just adopting new ones. And so what's happened since I got back was this like, witnessing of how there's this scrambling, or has been scrambling inside me to have an explanation for life, or an explanation that that can neatly fit in all of the things that I've experienced that was promised, the experiences keep expanding. And there's no explanation that fits them. And then I keep seeing how limited all these explanations are. And so it's been this really, really deep, long drawn out disillusionment, where all the stuff I've learned, and everything that I had latched on to, had become like this, I didn't even want to do it anymore. You know, and, and so there was this deep, deep layer that I had finally kind of touched into on myself, of kind of tension, sadness, and goosey as we would call it in the book that I hadn't actually been aware of before, but that I did feel deeper than all the others. And so as I was working with it, one of the things that started to arise was that Jasmine and I were in a spot where we've been almost 19 years together. And it has been an amazing coaster ride. And we were at a point where neither of us were sure that it was just going to be worth it would work going together. There's no hatred, we both care for each other deeply and really love and support each other. But there was just this point where it's like, you're interested in some things that feel like they're pulling you this way. And I'm interested in other things that feel like they're pulling me this way. And they don't feel like they're compatible. So are we actually going to make it or shall we in the most loving and honorable and gentle way, part ways. And so as we were in that space, I said to her, like before I can make a decision like that I feel like I need to like really look deeply at all of this kind of disillusionment and despair and frustration that's going on inside me because I don't think I'm going to make a very good decision about a relationship if I'm stuck inside of a depressive mood or something. And what's interesting is, I'm back and I have this like depressive mood there. But I also feel wonderful excitement, because of everything I've done over the years. So I'm like, Yeah, I can sit with this depressive, I don't need to get rid of it because I want to look at it right. And my system is finally strong enough to sit in those things. So I totally look, I've been looking at some other things and I'm sort of in a similar situation that Bill W was with the with the Alcoholics Anonymous. He couldn't be anonymous in his own program. Right and he couldn't just show up and stuff. He was the leader. And in many ways, I have never had a retreat like the ones we built, the kinds of stuff that we've been able to put together do not exist for me. And I wouldn't be able to have anybody go through them. And so I've constantly throughout my life had to be a kind of pioneer, go find the answer. And then like, really test it within my system, see what works, see what doesn't work. Ask a few other people that test it and then see if it's something that is something that would be valuable for other people, and then synthesize it in a way that many people could benefit from, which I mean, we all have, you know, I've said to you before, that we ride in your way, like you're out there plowing, I understand the potential loneliness of that of being out in front. And the world benefits from from that journey that you take.
(5:47) Yeah, I appreciate it. And I definitely benefit from the journey that others have taken to. And so so I'm out there. And so one of the things that I had seen was ketamine assisted therapy. Now, there's a bunch of there's a bunch of them online, there are some that you can do in doctors offices and things. And you may remember that my experience with psychedelics was was one that was sort of underhanded, and not quite legal. So it didn't go through, like official channels or anything, it was like, I never went to it for recreation, I was always going to try and find an answer. So I was holding it with some level of reverence. But that just the legality itself kind of taints the experience. And a lot of the kind of striving to find those altered states as the answer also became something of a sort of a compulsive behavior in some ways, not in the same way as other things, but still kind of compulsive. And the reason I stopped with that entire exploration was the realization that like, I don't want only altered states to be beautiful. I want every aspect of life every breath every every tooth, every chopping of a vegetable, every every little laugh from my kids, even their screams and the way I end the smell of the garbage. I want every part of life to be like, a bit like an experience that's worth wonder even if maybe I gotta walk away from the garbage can.
(7:08) Yeah, you know, I think it's important to say that, like my experience of you before this process, wasn't that you were miserable, or life was bad. Oh, right. No, no, you weren't like moping around. Nothing like that. But the pursuit of bonus is kind of the way it felt like, like, like, this is good. And what can we do to make it better? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, because as I described, in the book, you know, there is this sort of like effervescent, beautiful, wonderful, kind of like, vibrant zing going on in me, like all the time, it's so wonderful. If I just sit in it, it's great. And writing on top of that is maybe a little bit upon scum. Like some thoughts that maybe aren't always helpful and whatnot. So there's this beautiful, glorious thing. And then there was this like habit, could we get rid of the pawns? And so with this, the disillusionment became like, Wow, maybe there's a lot more pond scum than I thought there was. And maybe I need to do some kind of shock cleaning. So
there's, I've referred to this before, but a guy named George MacDonald talks about knowing God and like to know God, you often have to unlearn who you think he is, and find out who he really is, is this idea that you go down this trail, and you realize it's not the best trail. So you come back to the trailhead, and there's this feeling for me in this for you. Like, there's bedrock here, somehow, you're stable, you're a bedrock and everything's great. And there's some things that you've learned aren't what you thought they were. Yeah, you know? Yeah. And so it's like, those are worthwhile endeavors. Right? You know, because it brings you to this point.
(8:45) Yeah. And like we talked about in the last episode. Oh, yeah. My past isn't, shoot. That didn't happen either. So it's a constant discovery. Yeah. And there's no misery inside of it. So but there was definitely a lot of, I guess, I would say that that was the one point that was the hardest point that I'd been dealing with was relationship with Jasmine. Perhaps because the pursuit was I gotta go find this other thing, that that relationship, as beautiful as it was, and it's so good in so many ways. I mean, we've talked about it. Yeah, it's amazing. Like, I've said this to you and Jasmine, both like for our guys at the retreats and the women for that matter to see you guys. You and your wife walk together and be so open and honest and transparent. Is such a gift, like you like that. That kind of honesty and reality. It's just such so beautiful to watch. And it has been beautiful to watch you and Jasmine walk through this.
(9:36) Yeah, so that was really the impetus like oh, man, I can't make a relationship decision while I'm also in this place. And this relationship is important to me, and I really do want it to work. So how do we handle that? So I chose to do the at home therapy after having been invited to sit with somebody else through their ketamine stuff. So they invited me to come in as the sort of like, therapist stand in or support stand in for guide to help them process their stuff. And when I started to witness like this person was in a deep, deep, deep depressive funk, because a lot of crazy things had happened in their life where their their marriage had fallen apart, their kids were going crazy, their own physical health was declining, like all at the same time. And so ketamine was suggested for them, and they asked if I would come along. And so I went along, and I was there to kind of help them process through it and be there with him during it and, and everything else. And when I saw how quickly the the sort of the claw marks of the everything going on, had sort of left their system and they were able to lead and change the circumstances, but the way they were floating through it was different. And their ability to kind of step up for themselves and kind of be more of what it seemed like they were already but you know more of it. I thought, Okay, well, this is worth trying. So that leads us to this experience of six guided ketamine sessions. And I think this is a, this will be helpful for anybody who's considering this right? What was my experience with it? How did I go about it? What might I consider would be beneficial or not?
(11:10) So what exactly is ketamine? Ketamine, I don't remember exactly what it's derived from. But it was originally used as an anesthesia in surgery, horse tranquilizer kind of thing. And I think it is kind of par for spring. And what they found was, it had some interesting side effects. So instead of like totally getting rid of a person's consciousness and everything else, it would anesthetize that system, or dissociate them from the body such that like they weren't so traumatized by what was happening in surgery, but it didn't get rid of their conscious experience. And so they've eventually surgeons have moved toward, I don't remember what it's called propulsion or something like that, that really does kind of like make a person go unconscious as well, so that they're not awake inside of their surgery but unable to move. So it has something of a paralytic something of an anesthesia in it. But the way that it's derived now, or its chemical properties, make it so that there is can be this conscious experience inside of that dissociation with the body, which then offers the possibility of somebody who's so identified with their body and their life and their experiences that when all of a sudden there's some lubrication between those questions can be asked about, wow, what Wow, is that even real? What's going on? You know, so it kind of shakes things loose, you would say?
(12:28) Yeah, I would say like, it offers a little bit of a bird's eye view from from depending on how it's done, right. But because it was called Special K back in, like the 60s and 70s, and stuff. And so like, if you're using it in like everything, if you're using it for recreational purposes and your, your eyes are open, and you're out engaging with the world, it will change up your perception, it'll change up your body balance, it'll change up some of your ability to function. But in low doses, it can be like, oh, yeah, let's have a fun hit kind of experience, which is why it's regulated. And there's no, what would traditionally be called an addictive nature. From my experience, I would say that that's not actually accurate. Okay. They might argue that when it comes to the substance, that there isn't anything in it, that creates like an addictive craving or something. But I would say that having spent so many years like as a compulsive like, let me go to porn, and we go have food and let me do all this other stuff. There was there was a period of about a half a day to a day after every session, where I felt this desperate, kind of like, Oh, I gotta get back in there, I got to do this. That's, that's it. That's, that's the holiest part of life, like disclosure and kind of desperation. So it maybe it's the dosage that makes that happen. So maybe it's not as like, it's not gonna create that kind of like, draw as, as rapidly as some things. But I would say that because of the nature of the pleasure, pain balance in the body, and the fact that the balance body's balancing it, and it will go to negative in order to balance out any positive effects that, you know, my body's like detoxing from it. And so then it's naturally want to go back. So I wouldn't say that it doesn't have that possibility.
(14:09) Yeah, it seems like it could be like anything in the sense of like, I can go here to escape. Yeah. Or I can, or I can use it to take a step forward. Right. So what was it like you had six sessions, six sessions? And can you talk a little bit about the the progress through what the first session the second, how to experience the third one and where you ended up? Yeah. So the first session, so what you have to do is, there's a screening in advance to make sure you don't have any kind of like psychosis or neuroses or something that it would exacerbate because if you already have something along those lines, and this could possibly exacerbate that and create damage, and so they're being very, very careful with that. And so you go through like a questionnaire at the beginning and it's not too bad, you know, but they're asking Are you anxious? Are you depressed? And I was like, neither anxious nor depressed or depressed would be more like it. It was more like a feeling of like, what is the point of of life, if everything we think about it is just stupid, you know, like, if nothing is accurate, right? So it was this weird as it wasn't depression, but it was just like what is what is the point. So there was no motivation to do things and, and to move forward, which is actually a beautiful point to be at guys. It's a significant point. And I was trying to rush through it because of the relationship thing. But it is a really significant spot. So I identify with a little bit in that, like, when I was operating off of old stories like that provided a motivation, yes, the to move forward, right. And when I got rid of all those negative stories, and the cortisol and everything that was associated with it, I found myself without motivation, exactly. I had to find a new motivation.
(15:49) That's another story actually, like, that's commonly what happens. So like, you get to these places where there's this illusion and, and then instead of staying in that place where you've seen through the old stories, I've done this show many times go call for another story. It's like, yes, this purpose. Only now I can't hold on to them very long, like, maybe a few days to a week, and then all of a sudden, my body's like, no, sorry, I don't want to run into another brick wall. Yeah, I guess I was like, like, in for my situation, like looking like, what can? How will I move forward in a positive way? Right. But that's going to involve some level of story. The assumption in that question is that you're not already moving forward. Gotcha. And you are, that's what I want you to like recognize is if you come to a moment of disillusionment, a moment where nothing makes sense anymore. That's a moment of honesty. That's where life itself can move forward, as opposed to your ego, or your personality or all the other stuff, right. And so it's not an easy place to be. And it's definitely not convenient. In a world that's fast paced, that demands function and whatnot, but it is a really beautiful opportunity for something much bigger than any of us to step in. Which is, you know, been part of my experience, kind of like looking at it. Yeah, I've just identified that it was, it felt difficult, because there was nothing, there was no longer a whip. Yep, yep, of a story or a motion or whatever that was like it because it's really easy to be driven forward when you're being whipped. Yep. What happens when the whip is gone.
(17:28) And there's a moment where you enjoy not being wept. And then after that, there's all the other stories that are like, I should have a story, I should have motivation, I should have purpose. And that itself is a whip, which is making you whip yourself into another story. Yeah. So back to the calorie back. We could do this for a long time. So so then you meet with a clinician who kind of essentially kind of looks at your body weight and any other symptoms you may have had and then assigns a dose, right? So they gave me a certain dosage and and then this one is an at home one. And I had done that because I had seen how they did it in the doctor's office. And as much as they tried to like you could meet with a psychotherapist beforehand. And we went and did like the kinds of questions a psychotherapist was answering, asking was the kind of validating questions that I wanted to throw up in my mouth, I did my best to be in there and not be like, Oh my gosh, I do but you're not helping. But then like the place that they were doing, it was intramuscular or intravenous, depending on what the person preferred. So either a shot or an IV. And you could be in a room by yourself with the furniture that they've set up with these cubicles kind of stuff, or there could be several other people going in there through a session at a time. And any one of them could just end up start screaming, like run and cussing and all kinds of stuff, like depending on how big the dosages and how far down you went. And, you know, did you go into a K hole are not. And, you know, there was one of the person I was sitting with at one point was like, just yelling fiercely out loud at one point for for a number of minutes, and they didn't care, you know, they're like, Damn, it's part of the process that happens to people all the time. But like if somebody else were doing that in the middle of your own session, and you didn't have sufficient enough, like earplugs or something then that could affect what your experience is. And and then there was the energy of the nurses and some of them were really anxious and I was like I don't want any of this stuff. So the one I did was they shipped it to me they ship it to me separately it's like a certified package and you have to do the sessions in the order and like and integrate with with the guide afterwards to make sure that and it's the first one is done with a guide and if you do the ketamine before you meet with the guide, then then you do they just continue the program and like they're doing as much as they can to kind of regulate it. And so the first session was actually really mild. Like I was just pissed off for an hour but but basically it had brought all of those months of disillusionment together into one hour of experience on top of all the struggle and frustration I had with with Jasmine into that one hour. So it was like, my I was my neck was tense. And like, I was just body like I could feel stuff. And I didn't go super deep. And like I felt like I kind of like dropped in for about three minutes. And then all the rest of the time I was just like on the edge of it just frustrated. And that led to an even worse relationship with Jasmine. Where we were like, holy cow, maybe this is just like, are we just delaying an inevitable end? And then the second session started to alleviate that I had two people there sitting with me because I didn't want there to be like this, like, well, if Jasmine's in the room, then I'm gonna do all this other stuff. But I have a lot of fear. Like, what if I do something that she doesn't like, and then she rejects me, you know, come up, like, what if, because I'm under the influence. And then she's here. And then like, there's all this judgment on the other side, because she's not doing it. And there's all of those, like thought processes that I'd had over the years of, like, wanting her to, to do the same to be the same so that I felt like I was okay. And that was kind of a codependent kind of thought process. And, you know, those things arose as well, things that I had been unprocessed. So the second one was session went a little bit better. And I felt a little bit better afterwards. And there wasn't so much anger or frustration or anything after it. But then when I met with one of the guides afterwards, I just said, Look, I noticed that like for, you know, a good solid several hours to maybe a day afterwards, there's a lot of frustration and anger. And they just simply suggested something that I would have suggested to somebody was like, Well, what if it's not anger? What if it's literally resistance to something? So all that week, I kind of meditated on it. And then the next week during the session, the third session, I really like every time something came up during the session, I was like, Oh, what if it's not? How do I let that in? How do I let in this experience that I've been trying to push out with anger. And as that happened, all kinds of things opened up and change. And then in the middle of that, Jasmine, and I got an opportunity to go to a retreat down in Mexico, specifically for you know, building intimacy and couples and things like that. And there were some things that happened during the retreat that were absolutely phenomenal. But most of what happened was organically outside of it, where there was this total shift and how we talked about each other, and this discovery of an entire different side of each other that, you know, things that I couldn't even access for Jasmine, because my whole I think the biggest label people run into and the biggest word that they have to challenge is their own name. And the the name Jasmine carried with it years of judgments from the perspective of addict and then recovering addict, and then, you know, this, that and the other. And I hadn't freed her from those years of judgment, because I kept using her name. And she hadn't freed me from that just because she kept using that other name. And so out of that grew this like new name that we call each other. And they feel like an invocation, you know, like, she calls me that. And it's not like she's calling me a new name, it's like, she's calling forth the rest of me, you know. And in the same way, when I call her the name that I gave her is the same thing. So like, not It's not like honey, or deer or anything like that. It's like a name that came differently. The ones she came up with, with a why and the one I ended up with came from Sanskrit, I'm not Hawaiian, and she's definitely not. But they were words that kind of like, they just fit right in the middle of it. And then each session after that just seemed to progress in this sort of like, flowing way, as and the dosage was increased each time I met with the coalition to commission twice, and he upped the dosage once more, and then a second time. And then we we left it there and then went through to the end. And I would say that it did build some level of neuroplasticity or some level of being able to step back and, and look at things from a totally different light. And I think that that laid the groundwork for the other stuff that we did that if it had just been the ketamine alone. I don't know that that that change could have happened the way that it did so as quickly and as powerfully as it had, that there was a lot of other things we did on the side of it, to set the stage for making a transition where that could where we could sort out what it means to be in relationship with another human being in a way that allows them to be all of themselves instead of pegged as No, you're this and I'm that and this is how we fit.
(24:24) So it wasn't a miracle cure. No, it wasn't. There's a feels like there. There is an aspect of it that expedited things. Yes, I would say that as an accelerant. If you have other things in place, then it can act as like an accelerant. In even on its own a lot of people have had some really great sure stuff, you know, but they're asking you to journal through it and they're asking you to like integrate and go to integration sessions with people so they have some other things in place to help you through it if you don't mind bloom was the company that I went through. There are a few of them. I really like kind of like the mind blimp setup. And, but not a miracle miracle cure at all. In fact, a couple of the things that that kind of bothered me from the beginning was that when I met with both the clinician and the guides, they they all were from the perspective of, oh, wow, this thing, you know, ketamine really changed my life. And so now I'm in this place where we're like, they're like, we have these extended programs, so where you can do more of it later on, and maybe it's only once every couple months or so I'm in a really great spot. And then after I start going down, I go up time for ketamine again, and some red flag in my head was like, yeah, so you found another crutch? Exactly. Yeah. And by the end of it, the program was like, we have five different programs, each of them are six sessions long. So that's 30 ketamine session, which you could, which is like, two thirds of a year, like you join Amway or something? Yeah, sorry. Or somebody texts or emails about that one. Yeah.
(25:54) Or you could space them out. And you could be on this thing for like, a couple of years just going through, and not that that's bad, but they're like, Okay, well, now let's really dive into anxiety. I'm one of them. And one other ones about loving yourself. And another one's about depression. And another one is about going deeper, and learning to just trust the process and see what arises. And there was just something about that, I felt that inside myself, like, Okay, I'm at the end of the sixth session, oh, no, I'm going to have other things come up. And I don't want to lose this. And that same kind of clawing, like, I could, like, invest in the whole thing. Yeah. And keep going. If you or someone you know, is looking to drop the F bomb of freedom in their life, whether that's from past trauma, depression, anxiety, addiction, or any other host of emotional and personal struggles, but they just don't know how or want some help doing it, head on over to the freedom specialists.com/feel better now, and check out some of the things we've got in store for you, or book a call. So we can look at your unique situation and get you the help that you're looking for. Now, there are some things that weren't mentioned in some of the literature, like ketamine does create necrosis inside of the body, so some cell die off and some other types of things. It definitely affected with my digestion. And my Toots got to beat some of the rankings experienced in my life. Obviously, not for everyone, and it does have biological side effects. And if it becomes a crutch, or if it becomes the Savior, then there's a problem. So right then and there, I was, like, I can note, this is not I think, as an accelerant as a an interruption for for a place where someone is going to get stuck. It is a fairly cost effective way of doing things, it was a little less than, like, stretched out in payments, but about $1,200 stretched out in payments, you know, over the course of several months. So in terms of cost efficiency, it's pretty good. And it's done from your own home, especially if you can if you have a home that feels safe, and it's a good environment for that there's something in that, to be sure. And what I did love about it was it changed the whole narrative, like everything about my relationship with psychedelics and psychoactive substances before was that they were illicit, illegal, morally wrong. And like, like harbingers of the devil and they mess up your brain and all of the stuff, none of that stuff is actually accurate. They can like you can do or more often than not, you can do things on them that mess up your life. Right? Yeah. And there are people for whom they would not be suggested that that happened. So they can, they can, in some cases, create problems.
(28:29) It's like enhancing the problem is already there. Yes. Yeah. Right. And so depending on what's already there, you want to be careful about exactly what you're dealing with. And so, but none of that stuff was true. And so to go at it from a standpoint of, I'm not hiding anything, it's out in the open, my wife is involved fully cognizant of the process, and there as a participant watching, and engaged, and I'm conscious and deliberate with each step of the process. And each piece. I have this, like the way that I'm going into it, the questions that I'm asking how I reflect on it afterwards. And then all of the stuff around it, it became a really powerful process. So if you're looking for any psychoactive substance, any psychedelic as a solution to your life, it's never going to work. Yeah, it's, as you're talking about it, it reminds me of the whole tour guide thing. Yeah. Yeah. It is a tour guide. You have the propensity to make it more than that.
(29:28) You can mistake that for the door. Yeah. And what's fascinating about is a lot of people do this, right. You mistake the methodology as if it's the Savior, but that keeps you in the mindset of you need a Savior. I think it can be a really powerful thing. And I think it set the stage or helped accelerate a lot of what Jasmine and I did, but if we hadn't been doing those things, I watched other people go through ketamine and I watched how I got reports from them and their friends about how you know it didn't really do too much, you know? And so like, yeah, it kind of eased off and then, you know, started to come back later. But that's because there wasn't this like buildup, which I think brings me to the immortality key the book by Brian Murrow rescue. I don't remember how long ago was published, not not it was recent, like 2028 2022, somewhere in there. This is a guy who has never been on psychoactive substances. He's never done psychedelics, because as he's interested in him, but as he's researched it, he realized, like, if we're going to really research this, it has to be from a silver place. Otherwise, people are going to think, well, I took a drug, and now everybody should take it. And so he hasn't explored that territory. So for 12 years, he was researching all of these ideas about how these major religions kind of took place. And especially the claims that like the early Christian communions were really done with spiked alcohols and done with psychoactive substances like cannabis remains that they found inside some of these, like smoke sensors that they use in the in the churches and, and residue that they that they found there. And they found like aromatized beers that they found from ancient Greece, and possible places where the like lots of different types of spiked wines, because wine, because distilled alcohol was not a big thing like that was like, that wouldn't come around for later. So you, you weren't really going to get drunk drunk. On any of these alcohols, it was just a safe way to drink water and whatnot. But if you did have something in it, that could create these states. Now you have churches and people and religions that are using this as a as an initiatory, right. And so you have Eleusis, which is just outside of Athens. And back in the day, they did the illusion mysteries, you know, and there were these priests and prophetesses, and Oracle's and whatnot that would live there. And they would proctor this kind of drink. And so people would come and they would spend like Plato went and Socrates went and these other people went, and they would spend months if not a year, in preparation to go for a one time event, maybe more than that for some people. But typically, like a once in a lifetime kind of event where you would go to a place, you would imbibe the sacred drink, and there you would meet the gods. And you would have these, these visits from other entities and gain knowledge and an understanding of your own life purpose, and then you would leave there as an initiate. And this was the culture that Christianity grew in. So his research was like really trying to connect the dots and see like, these have been allegations for a long time. Is it possible that this is the case, there were spiked wines in Jesus's time happening in Israel? So there were all of these different types of things. That's not to say that all mystical experiences happen because of of psychoactive substances, even in India, Soma was like, is described as it being some kind of psychoactive active substance, but Sadhguru, and others, and I myself have had a prodigious amount of deeply mystical experiences without being on any wait list, what would be commonly called a psychoactive substance, I mean, unless you call it oranges or peanuts. And so like, I mean, I guess life is psychoactive. And so like, it doesn't mean that all of them aren't that and that, that there aren't other types of deeply spiritual or sacred experiences that people that have that are always imbibed by that. But some of the allegations are like the burning bush may have been an acacia tree, and perhaps it was on fire, who knows, there's a lot of DMT inside of that. And so if if Moses was nearby and imbibing that, and then all of a sudden, the bushes speaking to him and all this stuff, whether or not it came from that, or if it came from a divine encounter, the kind of wisdom that even just the hygienic wisdom that came out of Moses, about how to operate the people is phenomenal. And I mean, like, half the world is a result of Mosaic tradition, you know, in terms of their religious beliefs. So there's a lot there. So there's a lot of traditional wisdom involved in this stuff. And so he's looking at that, as I was listening to his descriptions of it, there's a Joe Rogan podcast with him talking, I was sitting there thinking about like, the intentionality and the consciousness with which to use this stuff. And it's this, it's, I mean, that level of intention is what we put into how people prepare for the retreats. And how we've built one experience after another basically, what we've put together is every way that's not a psychoactive substance, for a person to be able to access these kinds of deep experiences that can essentially be a turning point for their life. And we stack them on top of each other in a really deliberate way. So it's a unique cocktail of experience.
(34:31) Yeah. When as you were talking about your experiences, I went back to my retreat that I went to and the breathing exercises that we did, and I'm like, there is some similarities to what you were saying, including being really angry after that one, you know, because like you had said like you it was all they're all in one one ear. So there was some similarities to my experience. Yeah, there are other similarities that I have had, like while on deep breath work journeys, you know, breathing really heavily or an hour or something where body will go numb, similar kind of experience, or will contort and stuff or my mind will start to wander and piece together things we've had people have visitations from Jesus and Hindu deities and, and past family members and have deep spiritual experiences as if they are there. They literally feel them touching them. This mimics what you get inside of these. Yeah, so the movement doesn't require ketamine.
No, it doesn't at all. Because ketamine only works because the body can produce that on its own, it's just that it hasn't been in the habit of doing it. So it seems it's like psilocybin and all the other ones. You know, I think that I've correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that you have referred to some of the exercises that we do as a positive trauma.
(35:48) Yeah. So like, if you define, like, the way I tend to define trauma is if anybody looks at it, is an idea that you have about yourself in the world, that landed at a time that where there was a lot of psychological and emotional and physical intensity. And because of the intensity, just like with memory, when we talked about it, like gets mapped into the brain as if it's real. And so it bypasses any logical filter, you have any rational filter, you have an all of a sudden, you're there. And it feels like I'm worthless is reality, instead of I'm worthless as a thought I happened to have while this other nasty thing was happening, right? Or thought I happen to have later while remembering about the nasty thing that happened. And so if you think of trauma, just that way, is an idea that feels real, because it happened at a time of intensity, physiological intensity, well, then that's what we're doing. We're offering people ways of amping up their physiological intensity, that are safe and that are like cared for by people who've been through it. And allowing them to instead of like planting a seed inside of them, allowing them to plant their own seeds, to ask their own questions, and to like to guide them through a process of shifting their perception about what's there. And so then they end up being able to take that and feel the reality of that, and as a result, use that to kind of jettison some of the apparent reality of the past, which wasn't really there.
(37:14) That's great. Yeah. I mean, this kind of brings it brings this to like, my idea for having this conversation was that you invited me to observe you during this point and say, hey, you know, what's just watch and see what you see change or whatever. And yeah, so I've done that. And I shared with you a little bit last night, but I think, not that you're, you're less of an observer, because I don't think that has changed, but somehow you feel more present. You know, like, more maybe connected? I don't know. I don't know how else to say that. I will also say that when I walked in and saw Jasmine for the first time, there's a different beauty about her Elia like, I was just like, I was captivated. Like, it was like, it's like time frozen. Like, wow, like, there's a beauty there that I think was there before but it was just full, it was full somehow. Yeah. You know, and, and there's a fullness to you as well. Like, like, like your eyes and her eyes both seem clearer. Like there's they're more white somehow. They're brighter. But yeah, there's there's maybe almost feels fuller color somehow like, like, you both feel like you're more for domestic 3d. I don't know it just like there's, there's more. There's more color, there's more vibrancy, there's more presence. You know, one of the things I've always appreciated about you is your ability to observe. And that's still there. It's still there. And it's all more connected and cohesive, somehow.
(38:48) Interesting. Yeah. I mean, Jasmine, and I both look different to each other. Yeah. It's really fascinating to be that like, she really, especially when she's not burdened by all the kids and everything else. When I look at her, like, she looks genuinely like a different person. And it's like the old person died in some way. And we're, like, was reborn or there's something else there? For sure. I think the word you use yesterday was more of a participant, right? I think I definitely feel more involved. I think most of my life, not that I wasn't involved. There were great many times where I just was in it, you know, but especially the adult life, once burdens showed up, and the responsibility to earn an income and to handle the kids and everything else. There's this feeling of being like, isolated from a feeling of being alive, which is what I tried what I've learned how to like create within myself, so I could create this feeling of being alive, but it was like, it was still somewhat a feeling of being like really vibrantly alive inside of a capsule and it does feel feel in some ways, like parts of that capsule have begun to dissolve. And so that there's a merging with what's happening more. And I feel like that's a process that's ongoing. And I feel like it maybe started in the middle of doing the ketamine sessions, when Jasmine and I really had to kind of sit there and look at it. And I don't know if that's something that ketamine produces. Right, right. But again, I do feel like it sort of allowed set the stage and allowed something to happen.
(40:31) Yeah, it's so hard to kind of separate how the ketamine from your journey. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know that everyone. I mean, no one's gonna have the same experience, or the same results, right? And obviously, you know, this podcast doesn't promise any of that. But, like, it's really hard because of who you are, what you've done and what you've experienced. So what is it? What is it like for you to see the guy that sort of, like, at the top? Kind of, honestly, because because on my end, at least for a number of years, it was like, I, there's just this general pressure, like, I can't show everybody that I still have questions or that I still, even though they can see that I'm still learning and I'm still constantly, like, engaged with whatever process is unfolding in me. Like, oh, but I still have moments of, of, like, frustration, or anger or stuff like that, even while I like, like, I'm still like, feeling wonderful. And this is happening, you know. And you've seen some of that overlap as well, because I haven't been like necessarily trying to hide it. But what is it like for you to see the guy so quote, unquote, at the top, not that I think of myself that way, but to just be like, Oh, he's gonna go through this whole therapy thing? Is it disheartening to be like, Oh, crap, you're always going to be healing? Oh, this isn't an answer, either. Does that go through your head? Or what? No, it's
(41:51) interesting that you've brought this up? Because it's because I had a moment probably a week and a half ago, where I'm like, you know, Bob's a tour guide. Yeah. Yep. And I had to, in that moment, let you off of the pedestal. Because I think you've alluded to this, and I know, this is your heart anyway. So like, like, I felt fully encouraged to go this direction and, and let you and your journey be you and your journey. And let me and my journey be me and my journey. Yeah. You had said at one point, I think it was in regards to someone who's a popular speaker. Like, I don't want to follow that guy. Because like, I don't want to end up like him in the sense of like, he's angsty and all this other stuff. And when I was thinking about all that, like your encouragement Not to put you on a pedestal, like, the realization that your question is not my question. And that's okay. And I can go down that journey, and make something up that isn't there for me. Or I can choose to be on my own journey, and be my own tour guide. Yeah. And so like, in that moment for me, or as I watched your journey, one I feel like you give you gave me the permission, and I don't know that you have the power to do that. But I took the permission to be like, This is my life. Yeah. And this is Bob life. Yeah. And I get the benefit of learning from you. And walking with you. And being up here and being in conversation. Yeah. You know, that has been a part of this journey for me as I've watched you, because I'm like, there's, I don't, I've never done drugs. Anytime I've experienced drugs, it's, you know, like, if I'm gonna have a side effect, if there's one listed on a drug, I'm gonna get it, you know, and so I just don't do I rarely do aspirin or anything like that, let's it's pretty severe. And so I'm like, I'm not really curious about this. Right? You know, but it all culminated in what I think you say all the time is like, you don't want to be on a pedestal. And I think your desire is to walk with people, not to always be leading. Yeah,
(44:13) I mean, I'm essentially not that I'm capable of doing this. But the desire is to create a world where all of this suffering disappears. Like to give to open a door for myself, and my family and the people I know, to, like, graduate from the entire Hollywood drama of what they think is human nature, and experience the wonder of life. And that has been like it's been a longtime kind of like, drive for me ever since that Superman vision. You know, like, oh, man, I could do all these amazing things. And if I were miserable, I'd still be miserable. And yet, like, that's the that's the desire but not to be the leader of that group, but to live in a world where people Live in wonder and awe and, and are fully just exactly what they are and don't sit there touting this story that quote unquote, societal trauma, that there's something wrong with the world or with them and that it needs to be fixed. There is an aspect when I came to that realization that I wanted to call you right away. Yeah. I like why? Because on some level I was I realized that I wanted your approval for the journey I was taking. And I was like, I don't need that. Yeah, that's been one of the one of the more challenging things I've run into over the years is I've never had a mentor. That's, that I've been close enough to that I could have get. So I've always want I had wanted that approval. And so I wanted to like share so that I could get the approval back so that I can appreciate my own experience. Right. Right. And yeah, never never, I never got that.
(45:53) But for me, it felt like a graduation of sorts. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah. Which I, you know, is what it is. And I'm excited about that. I'm excited to learn more. I'm excited to continue to journey with you. Yeah, I'm excited for all of that. So we call it a new beginning. Right. Yeah. So I mean, at the end of this, you know, I mean, it's, it's kind of been one of the longer podcasts we've done, but like, I asked the question, because as much as there is some tiny part of me that wants everybody to think that I'm actually I don't want everybody. Nor do I want them to think that I know anything. I just want them to benefit. I really just love watching people shine. You know, I think it is important. There. I think there are stages that I went through where I wanted, I needed to have someone on a pedestal, because it was the only light in my life. And so as long as I had a light I could look to and if even if it was somebody else, I felt like I needed that. Even if existentially I didn't really need it. Somehow I was creating that buy in them. So that I could I could move forward because I couldn't create it in myself. But there does come a point where that has to go away. If you because the minute you put someone on a pedestal, you put yourself in a pit, and you don't have responsibility anymore. No. This is my responsibility. This life is I'm response able. I make the choices. Yep. This isn't your fault.
(47:18) Yeah, so I asked the question, just to see kind of what it was like also, like, it's really heartening to me to be like, Wow, cool. Somebody else also graduated, because Tucker's done the same, you know, there was a point at which he he realized, oh, I don't have to do everything Bob does. And it doesn't matter how many times I tell people that they have to kind of come to the point where they realize it, even if they never remember me saying, right, right? I'm not you. Yeah, even if they never remember me telling them that there's no guarantees that I have either for life, I can't guarantee that tomorrow, I'm not going to be a massive, I mean, mess up of things. I can only speak what I'm experiencing right now. And I'll do my best to make tomorrow. Great, right? I don't have any guarantees, and people who don't like to hear it. So they tend to filter it out. Because they want a guarantee, which is usually outsourced to another person. Well, or, or to ketamine, or to psilocybin or to some other method. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for letting me observe the journey. Thank you for encouraging me on my own journey, and for letting us all learn something from the wake that you leave.
(48:29) Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm glad it's helpful. So if you're listening at home, you know, same thing. There, there's a lot that we can take you through in terms of experiences and teach you in terms of how your body works. But in the end, you'll find that the life is already inside you. And it's the most beautiful thing that you could possibly discover. And there are things outside of you that can be used as resources to accelerate your learning or to accelerate your access to that. Whether that is some kind of psychoactive substance or counseling or therapy or, or just movement or adventures or doing some of the stuff that we do at retreats. But in the end, it's your life. That is the answer. And we're just trying to get you in touch with it.
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