"So I think email marketing is really, really powerful to recapture repeat buyers."
Welcome to Thrive-by-Design. The podcast for ambitious, independent jewelry brands looking to profit from their products. Get ready to make more and sell more doing what you love without spending every single waking minute doing it. Hey, and if you're a creative fashion or product-based business, I want to welcome you to the show. I'll be dropping big tips on launching, growing, and scaling your business so you can spend more of your precious time using your creativity to make money. You ready? Alright, let's do this.
Tracy: Welcome to the Thrive by Design podcast Best Of series. I was about to say the episode number, because this is actually re-purposed episode, Episode 84. I did a little digging... By the way, I'm Tracy Matthews, the chief visionary officer over at Flourish and Thrive Academy, Creatives Rule the World, and of course, the host of the Thrive by Design podcast.
So I was looking through our staff reports, and I was really fascinated by which episodes were getting the most downloads. And so, you know, I feel like the summer season is one of those seasons where people are going back and kind of figuring out how they're going to really promote their business for holiday, because before we know it, holiday season is coming around. September is going to be here, I know that so many of you are ready to ramp up your holiday sales, especially your online sales. Something that I hear from designers all the time is that they believe that the biggest reason that they're not getting sales on their website is because their website isn't getting enough traffic. Look, this is a totally serious problem and I totally get it, because everyone tells you that you need better SEO that you need to post on social media and do all these things to drive traffic to your site, so it's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that it's all about the traffic.
Let me ask you this, if that were true, if everyone who is doing all the things, like posting on social and maybe even having a YouTube strategy and posting on Facebook and blogging and SEO-ing their website. If everyone who did that was successful, that meant that that was the way that they were going to be successful online, wouldn't everyone be doing that? Because the truth is, is that a lot of people are doing that, and it's just not working. Here's the reason. Sure, traffic is one of the number one indicators of success when it comes to online sales, but it's not about random traffic. It's about the right kind of traffic, and that's what this episode is all about today.
Because look, if it was only about the traffic, because we know that building a website with consistent sales, especially in the e-commerce space, is not just about the traffic, it's about a conversion strategy and understanding how to curate content in the way that leads people to the next step of your sales conversation. I think a lot of times when people are doing all these things, they are thinking strategically about how they're curating content on social or how they're curating content on their website, how they're writing blog posts or what they're writing in those blog posts and what it means to the bigger conversation that they're having. But the one thing that we do know and that we can't get crystal clear on, because we know that it's strategic and that when you're building a website using a robust platform like Shopify, you will see that if your website's set up in the right way that if it's designed beautifully, but also designed for conversions, that once you start getting the traffic to the website, that's when you get sales. So today we're talking about the number one way to get traffic to your website, and it is, I'm not going to blow the surprise yet. Actually maybe I will. Really, the number one way to get tougher to your website is by emailing and I'm going to walk you through some email marketing strategies that I think are going to be really helpful that you can set up in your marketing plan.
I also think another issue that people have when they say that people aren't buying from their emails is the way their emails are structured. I'm going to dig into that a little bit more and we're going to talk about segmentation and different types of email marketing and all those things, but the key here is in particular for e-commerce brands, is that if you're trying to sell something in your newsletter, your newsletter needs focus. And here's what I mean by this. You need to be focused on what it is that you are trying to sell. So if you're posting in those, in your newsletters, your broadcast or your promotion plans that if you're having like a promotion and it's a series of emails that's set up in a funnel, or even an automated sequence and you're trying to get people to buy, but the focus is all over the place. Let's say you have like messages about events that you're doing that are in person or there's a lot of text above the fold and so people see a lot of text instead of a picture of your jewelry, or if your photography and graphics aren't designed with calls to actions actually on the graphic in a way that gets people to click on that graphic and take the next step, then you're doing yourself a huge disservice.
In fact, all of this stuff is exactly what we help designers in our SOS coaching program, and for those of you who don't know about SOS, it's a three year program with a one year commitment, and it's designed to help ambitious designers who are trying to scale their sales online, who are tired of building a business that is no longer leveraged. Typically when designers come to us they're feeling very overwhelmed, they feel like they can't step away from their business because they're so busy doing all the things, like filling wholesale orders or they're so busy maybe doing production because they haven't quite figured out how to replace themselves in the production process, and they're spending all their weekends at live events and shows or trade shows, and they're just not building something that's leveraged. Their business is fully reliant on them, it's fully reliant on them having to take specific actions in order to make money. I can tell you as someone who's been there, done that, that is the worst way to build a successful jewelry business. When you can start getting things working for you on autopilot, especially when it comes to selling direct to consumer using your website as a tool, and I call it using your website as a tool because for fine jewelry companies like mine or custom jewelry companies like mine, the website acts as like basically like a digital postcard in a platform for people to fill out forms and inquire about what you do. But for someone else who is selling like a more moderate price point product up to $1000, it might be a platform where people actually put something in their shopping cart and checkout.
There's different purposes and strategies that we teach specific to individual business models, and me and my team of coaches have traded an amazing, basically like an amazing system to help you from start to finish elevate everything that you're doing in your online business. So if you're interested in hearing more, I'd love to invite you to apply. This is really best for established brands who are doing at a minimum about $5000 a month in revenue, and the reason why I say that is that in order to invest in your business and get to a place of growth, you need to have some of like the groundwork done, but like we're working with some of our clients who are doing upwards of six and seven figures. So if you already have a really successful business but you don't have your online business portion, your website, e-commerce part dialed in, this is great for you too, this is not a beginner program, but it's also not for experts either. It's for anyone who is trying to get their website producing for them at a minimum $10,000 a month in revenue. For some of our designers it's much, much more than that, so it just really depends on your price point and business model and all those things. So if you'd like to hear more and you'd like to really uplevel what you're doing with your online marketing strategy and start really converting that traffic into customers head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/sosnow, that's FlourishThriveAcademy.com/sosnow.
You'll get on the phone with our business accelerator specialist Natasha, and she's going to talk a little bit about your business, she is going to ask you some questions about your goals, where you are right now, what's kind of holding you back from your success, and then we're going to give you a specific roadmap of how we think you should move forward, and if we think the program is right for you we will tell you, and if not, we will gently send you on your way. If there's another way that we can help you, we will definitely share that with you as well. No harm no foul, but if this is something that is interesting you can join the 100+ designers that we're already working with to scale their businesses and really produce brands and companies that they're proud of that provides them with a lot more leverage when they do this right.
Look, I have to be honest. No one ever said that building an online wing to your business was going to be easy, but what I will say is that when you get it right, it is far more leveraged. Just like Chelsea Farmer of Horsefeathers Gifts, you've probably heard me talk about her a lot on the podcast. The reason why I love what Chelsea's done is because every single year her business grows. She's doing over seven figures with a really low price point product and is crushing it. I love having her as a coach because she's amazing when it comes to website conversion strategy, and also creating community around your brand in a specific business model. If you're someone who is sort of in that moderate kind of demi-fine model where you're doing things in silver and semiprecious and precious stones and you're in that middle price point, you'd be inspired by one of our brands. Alex Camacho of Acid Queen Jewelry, she is crushing it and since she's joined our SOS coaching program, her business has nearly doubled, and I'm just so proud of what she's been able to accomplish. I was chatting with her today and she told me that her and her husband are buying a house, which is so exciting because they're really, like she's really been able to build a business that is supporting what they dream about and what they want, and so I'm excited for her.
We're also helping fine jewelers like Jennifer Dawes who is a good friend of mine, and she was asking for some help with digital marketing strategy and how to get her email sequences working for her, so she could stop having to like put a couple of things on sale in order to get sales online, she really wanted to get sales on the regular, and she was getting some good sales with her website, but she wanted to get more. So we're helping her walk through a re-brand, we're helping her set up her automations on her site and helping her just get tight right and really grow her online sales. I know that she is going to have so much leverage this next year, it's going to be exciting and awesome. If you're interested in learning more about that, we'll have definitely a link over at the show notes, but head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/sosnow and apply for your call with Natasha, it will be awesome. Let's dive in into today's episode.
This is Tracy Matthews here, the chief officer over Flourish and Thrive Academy and you know me, I'm always thrilled to be here on the podcast. So today I have an important topic, like I usually do. It's been fun going through all of these episodes that we've created over the past year and a half for the podcast, it's been really fun developing all this content, so as I was going to sort of through the library of things I was like, "What do people ask the most and like where do we have a gap?" One of the things that consistently comes up time and time and time and time again is how do I get more traffic to my website and how do I make more sales with that traffic. So actually as I'm recording this, I'm in Los Angeles. I'm actually recording in a hotel room, that's the cool thing about having a really great computer and a great microphone is you can record your podcast anywhere. I did a really quick turnaround, I was only home in New York City for a couple days and I was in Puerto Rico with my business mastermind, and one of my mastermind buddies is my friend Ben, and Ben is in e-commerce and Amazon selling expert. Ben and I are always chatting about ideas, he's so generous, he likes to share some of his best strategies, which is awesome for you guys because I get to bring all that to you. So in the upcoming weeks get excited, I'm going to be sharing some of Ben's resources that he shared with me with some tools and platforms and people and places that can really help you leverage your time a little bit better and grow your online presence and your e-commerce business as well. So if you're interested in that, stay tuned, keep listening to the podcast because you're going to really enjoy that.
Anyway, Ben and I got to talking and we were sort of diving deep and I'm like, "Yeah, one of the questions that people ask all the time is, you know I work with a really creative audience, and a lot of times they like to focus on the creation piece, but they're really stumped when it comes to doing some of the things like driving traffic to their website and they try all these things and it doesn't really work." So we were talking a little bit about that, so I'm going to share more about that with you coming up real soon. But getting traffic to your website is not necessarily rocket science. It's my firm belief that there is one of the best ways that we forget to think about. What I'm going to share with you today is the number one best way to get more traffic to your jewelry website, which I think a lot of you probably would be interested in hearing a little bit more about. So why don't we dive right in to the meat of the podcast and we can jump right in. But before we do, I would love to share a word from our sponsor. Today's sponsor is Shopify. So if you're in the Flourish and Thrive community, you know that I love Shopify. I am actually transitioning my website over to a Shopify website when I work on a little bit of a website refresh and re-brand in the upcoming months and I'm really excited about it because I've been wanting to relaunch sort of ready to wear bridal collection, so I'm very, very excited about that and excited to have an e-commerce store again because it's really fun. I teach you a lot about how to get traffic and convert traffic into sales on your website and I think I've done a really good job, even without an e-commerce store, but the thing that I think is really amazing is that when you use a tool like Shopify you have so much more leverage, and here is what I mean.
The reason why I love Shopify so much for building a website is that they're really at the forefront of e-commerce technology, and so they have a lot of applications that you can plug into the back end of your website. Things like up cells, cross cells, down cells. You can have Pinterest integrations where you can have shopable pins. You can also have integrations with Facebook ads retargeting and all that sort of stuff. So it's just the possibilities are really endless. There's a lot of different developers working on it, and Shopify really starts at simple templates that anyone can kind of DIY up to more developed websites where you can have a completely custom website built on the platform. So I just love them, and because of that I'm always trying to get a good deal for our audience I've negotiated a really amazing offer from Shopify. So they're offering an extended free trial, so if you're interested in checking more about the Flourish and Thrive deal that we have with Shopify head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/Shopify. That's FlourishThriveAcademy.com/Shopify.
Alright, let's dive into this podcast.
Okay, so we've been getting tons of questions about this topic, like "I need more traffic to my website", "how do I get more traffic to my website", traffic, traffic, traffic. Well traffic is only one part of the puzzle, one piece of the puzzle I should say. So we're going to talk probably a little bit about that in the conversation, because getting traffic to your website can come in multiple ways. We think about different ways that we're trying to get people on our website, maybe social media, maybe PR, partnerships, like all these different things but we forget our number one most amazing tool that we have, which is actually our email list. So the number one way to get more traffic to your jewelry website is to build your email list and actually email your customers and prospects. And I say that because people are always like, "I need to drive traffic, I need to drive traffic." but the truth of the matter is that when you're just driving random traffic from people who don't know you or spending money on ads trying to get people to your website who have never heard about your brand, your chances of getting those people to buy are really low. So instead I'd really like to encourage you to build your email list.
So I'm going to do another training coming up really soon about email list building, so stay tuned like on that, or another podcast I should say. I feel like all the podcasts are kind of like mini trainings, so that's why sometimes I use the words interchangeably, and hopefully you guys get a lot of value out of this podcast, so that's what I'm here for always. So there's a couple different ways that you can email your less to get more traffic to your website. So the first way to I think people typically think about are broadcast emails, which are typically considered like newsletters or things that you're sending out to your entire list on a continual basis or on a consistent basis. So what's really important, I think, with emailing and emailing your list as you start to build it is to create some sense of consistency. So choose maybe once a week, once a month or something like that, or you can do it three times a week, or you can commit to at least one day every week or month, and then add an extra email sporadically.
So you can send out newsletters as I mentioned, you can have special sales, offers, promotions around different holidays that are coming up like Mother's Day is coming up really soon, so this would be your great time to create like a broadcast email plan for Mother's Day. There's other holidays that are coming up soon, like Father's Day, graduations, Easter, other things that are coming up that you might want to be thinking about creating a promotion plan around. You can send emails to your entire list, and start to really grow that and get traffic to your website that way. As you continue to build your list, though, you might want to add in some segmentation. And what I mean by that is you segment off parts of your list based on special interests. So you can do this in a lot of different ways. When we talk a little bit more about email list building, I'm going to go into this probably a little bit more in depth, but you want to think about things like how they opted in.
Advanced marketers probably have multiple opt ins on their website, not just one, and there might be different reasons for people to opt in. Maybe it's to sign up for your newsletter, not my favorite idea, maybe sign up for a discount, also not my favorite idea, but you know, maybe they're opting into a style guide or you're giving away some free resource or something else that keeps them engaged that you can segment the list. Or you can segment the list based on buyers or when they have birthdays so that you can send out like, if people have birthdays a May you can send an email to May birthdays giving them a gift certificate for that month. There's a lot's of different things that you can do when you start getting more advanced in your marketing strategy, there are like hundreds, probably hundreds of thousands of ways you could segment your lust. But start thinking about email list segmentation, because that's a good way to potentially send out more emails without losing the number of subscribers you have. Because the more broadcast emails you send out, the more people you'll lose and the lower your open rates will be. Email segmentation over time is really important to learn, we're always trying to refine that as well over a Flourish and Thrive Academy, and I'm doing the same over at my jewelry business.
For instance, here's a good example of how I segment of the list. I ran a promotion or a fundraiser actually to build a school in Africa back in November, and I segmented all the people who donated on that list into a special interest list so that I could email them separately about the progress of the school in Africa. So that's a good example of how you can segment a list.
Emailing can come in a lot of different ways, it can come in your broadcast, it could come in creating segmented sections that you can send smaller portions of broadcast to, and then you can also... So another, I mentioned the segmentation, I just want to kind of go back to this, but if you do wholesale this is a great opportunity for you to segment your list into retail buyers and wholesale buyers. So people who are buying directly from you, and then maybe people who are your wholesale clients and you can also email them too. So I just thought of that so I thought I would throw that in as well. So back to what I was saying is that you can send out broadcast emails to either your whole list or a segment of your list, or you can set up email automation funnels, which are really, really important to nurturing your customers and prospects in a lot of different ways.
So the first way is, I talked a little bit about an opt in offer earlier, so I'm not going to go too in-depth about opt ins, but I will link some other resources in the show notes for that. In fact, I have a really great blog post all about email opt in, so I will definitely link that blog post in the show notes, so make sure that you check that out over at FlourishThriveAcademy.com/episode84, and we'll have links in the show notes at the bottom of the post so that you can check out all the things that I'm going to mention here.
So when people opt in to your email list you might have different ways that they're opting in, and there's different placements that you might want to put those opt ins all around your website. So for each of those different opt in lists if you have multiple types of opt ins, you can create a nurturer sequence so that you can nurture your prospects to the sale. So on Episode 68 there's a great podcast with Steve Chu, and it's all about boosting your e-commerce sales, and Steve talks a lot about strategies for segmenting and nurturing prospects, especially for e-commerce. He talks about how he does it, how he sort of tiers, like how long they've been on the list with the kind of offer that he gives them to keep moving them and how he eventually segments them off and splinters them off into different places. So super great episode, I'm going to link that in the show notes, or you can just head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/episode68, it's a really good one.
And then at the back end of every single opt in guide you can create and nurture a sequence that guides them to the sale based on what it is. So for instance you can have a quiz on the front end of your funnel that ask people like, "What is your jewelry style?" and then it spits out all these different jewelry styles, and then you create a beautiful lookbook PDF that you email to them, and in that lookbook it talks about their jewelry style and you can point them to where to buy on your website. The you can create a whole nurture sequence after that prompting them to the sale or talking a little bit about their boho style or their traditional style or whatever it might be. So there's lots of, there's so many possibilities. One of my first opt ins was a jewelry care cleaning guide, and this is a great opportunity because you could have that guide and then create a nurture sequence on the back and talking about jewelry cleaning tips or show videos and then start pointing people to your web store for sale, So there's lots of different ways that you can sort of do this sort of in a roundabout way that gets people back to your website. See? Traffic to your website, you're emailing them, you're driving them back to your website. And remember, in each of these emails that you sent out, the main purpose in almost, I would say 95% of the cases, is to get people on your website.
I see a lot of people sending out newsletters for events and stuff like that, and they're just sending all the event details in the newsletter, which is fine, but a better way might be to create some sort of tease email postcard with event information, but then also linking that back to a page on your website with more details about the event, so you're still getting people on your website with a strong call to action.
I think another way of that email marketing is a really, really powerful is to recapture repeat buyers. So you can do this in two ways. Let's talk a little bit about post sale email automation. So the first thing that you want to think about is when someone buys, like how are you going to nurture them on the back end. So you could do a lot of different things. You can tell them that their order's shipping, you can send an email out like 10 days after the order ships to make sure that they received it okay and if they're happy with their order. You can ask them to, then sent a follow up email asking them to write a review about the product or give a testimonial asking them for feedback on the work. You can ask them to post a picture of themselves wearing your jewelry on social media. One of my favorite things would be to like send an email saying like, "Show us your jewelry style." use your hash tag or something so that people can find you, make sure that they're tagging you on Instagram or identifying that you are the designer on Pinterest or whatever it might be.
I mentioned sending them an email asking for a review or a testimonial, and I just remembered that we had a really great episode, episode number 47 all about getting great testimonials from your clients. I'm also going to link that in the show notes, so make sure that you check it out, listen to that episode if you haven't done so already. Another thing you can add in your post sale nurture sequence is a refer a friends sort of offer. This can create loyalty, create a sense of referrals for you so you can use a plugin like on a platform like Shopify where you can create or refer a friend, almost like affiliate program where you can give someone like $5 towards their next purchase for every friend that they refer. So you see this a lot in apps where they have like "get $10 off your next massage" or "get 15% off your next meal for every friend that you refer". So you guys can do sort of the same thing, and I remember when Dogeared, most of you know that Robin used to work for Dogeared, Robin Kramer, my co-founder here at Flourish and Thrive, and she was a sales director over there and I remember when Dogeared first launched their website they had this really amazing referral program. For every referral that ended up buying you got $5 in credit, and for Dogeared, they don't even have that expensive of a brand, so you could refer five friends and get a piece of jewelry for free basically, so it's pretty cool.
And then after that, after you sort of do this nurture sequence or whatever you can start to create additional sequences where you offer them like special bundles or packages just for them, you can give them a discount off their next order, you can put them in your VIP program, there's a lot of different ways, so think outside the box on how you can get your previous customers coming back to your website, because it's a really great idea. So that's post sale email automation that you could kind of do right away.
Then you can start to recapture the repeat buyers, as I mentioned, creating a special offer or a follow up sequence. My favorite thing is to really build a loyalty program as well. So we talked about a refer a friend situation, but with loyalty programs it's like the more they buy, the more they're rewarded. So think of different ways that you can reward your customer and you can encourage them to continue to buy through your email nurture sequence. So your loyalty program can be anything from like "spend a certain dollar amount and then get this" or get access to certain pieces that they get first dibs at. There's a lot of different ways that you can do this. So think outside the box, once again.
And in your nurture sequence to recapture people you can create discounts or later offers and then start to segment people for how often they open your emails or how often they're buying or clicking through. Then you can also in the recapture of repeat buyers sequence is give them access to special content or material. These could be blog posts, this could be like special interest stories, you can start featuring them on your blog so that they're excited to share it. So think about different ways that you can get people actually sharing what you're doing and engaged in the content on your site.
Other things that you can email for, so we talked a little bit about email broadcast and we talked a little bit about email automation but I want to talk a little bit more about how this relates to the content on your site. Content marketing is huge for growing a business, for growing a jewelry business in particular for a lot of reasons. We want to market the content that we write on our site like on our blog or other places on our site, like maybe in our "about" page or in our "work with the" page, or whatever you have on your site depending on the type of business model you have. We want to actually be marketing that content, and you can also market that content through your email list. It's really important, I'm going to go into a little sidebar here, is to create continual content for a lot of reasons. Number one, it can pick up on SEO, and I mentioned the Steve Chu podcast episode number 68 earlier in this show, he talks a little bit about his reasoning for blogging actually, which is a little bit different than I actually suggest, but it's also something well worth listening to, is that you're really blogging for peers that they pick up the work and repost your blog post on things like Reddit, so that you can get picked up in search engines more frequently. It can create SEO, you can use keywords to think about what people are searching for in relation to your brand. I know for me, I get a lot of traffic from people searching for rose cut diamond engagement rings, because I design a lot of rose cut diamond rings. Think about it that way, like how can you use your email list lists on your site and the more traffic you're driving to specific posts, the more relevance that Google will put it into the search engine ranking.
Think about it, if you do, design a rose cut diamond engagement rings like I do, or let's say you do something really specific, like you design southwestern jewelry and your blog post, your content is starting to pick up traffic or traction on that and you end up driving email traffic to your email list, that just gets more eyeballs on there and gets people actually to be reading your content and then also gets, you know, Google sort of ranking your analytics up so that it deems your content as more important. So just one step, this is like still a little bit on the sidebar, but I think it's really important for the conversion piece.
We talked about the number one way to get traffic on your website, which is actually emailing people. In those emails, one of the most important things that you need to do is to make sure that there is a strong call to action and not too many calls to action. In particular, you want to have one thing that you want them to do, best case scenario. Sometimes we have to email about a few things, we might do a P.S. at the bottom like about an event, but we want them to buy online. Think about that, like the more options you give, the less opportunity they are going to do anything with it, so think about that when you're doing this.
Same thing goes with your blog post and any content pages on your site. So anywhere where you have information that talks about what you do, you want to tell people what to do next. If you just have it there and you're not telling them where to buy what's in that blog post or you just have them there and you're not showing them like what to do next or where they can actually buy the piece or where they can fill out your custom jury form, etc. then it's just a wasted opportunity. I feel like this podcast episode is turning into a podcast round up, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I've already done so many of podcasts about different variations on this topic. This is really great because I did a podcast episode number 26 about how I booked over $30,000 in profit converting leads from my website, so talks a lot about creating these strong calls to action and some of the things that you need to do in order to get people just from being on your site getting into the next phase of buying. So check out that episode, it's FlourishThriveAcademy.com/episode 26, and of course I will also have that in the show notes, so don't worry about that.
Anyway, so I hope that's helpful. I know that a lot of you are always thinking about how am I going to get more traffic to your website but I don't want you to oversee the most important way, because people who have actually opted into your email list are the most engaged buyers, because they are already warm leads, they're not cold, they had to actually physically opt in to your email list to get there. People build lists in different ways, maybe some of these people met you at a trunk show or a trade show or something like that, but they still, they already know who you are so it makes it a lot easier to sell to them.
Don’t forget about your previous buyers. Those are the ones that you want to nurture the most, because if they've already purchased from you, it is a lot easier to resell them on something than to try to start fresh with the cold lead.
Thank you so much for listening to the show today, it's Tracy Matthews, I'm going to be signing off. If you're interested in learning more about how you can sign up for a free trial on Shopify you can head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/Shopify, and if you're interested in our help helping you scale your online sales, for those of you who already have sales coming in and successful businesses and other revenue streams, we would love to help you get the online part working for you. Head on over to FlourishThriveAcademy.com/sosnow.
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. It's my mission to help thousands of creative businesses, inside and outside the jewelry space, use their creativity to make money. Make sure that you're subscribed to Thrive-by-Design on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher and wherever podcasts are played. We would love to hear what you think, please rate and review the show. If you're inspired, please share this with your friends. Here's to seeing you flourish and thrive.