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Highlights from this episode include:

  • The “Copywriting Principle” that prevents you from scaring away great potential prospects (7:54)
  • How to recognize the “Trigger Moments” that let you blast through sales resistance (18:02)
  • The “Productization Method” that transforms your offer from irritating to irresistible (20:47)
  • How to generate effortless sales from your community without feeling pushy or sleazy (25:50)
  • A foolproof method for identifying pre-qualified buyers so you avoid dealing with professional time-wasters (30:07)
  • How to turn Facebook Groups into sales (and cash) generating machines for your business (46:26)
Read Full Transcript

There's two types of people who hear consensual sales in the first go, Oh, Eww, Shawna, that is not what you want to say. There are better words to use and the second type hear consensual sales and say, you know what? You're right. I don't want to talk my way into the sale. I don't want to memorize a script. You just want to work with clients who are excited to work with you. Now that's consensual sales.

Does it ever pain you when a client doesn't buy? Like you're physically just sad at like, you wear your heart on your sleeve, that you just want them to buy so bad because you know how much your work can help them. If that's you. I think you're going to resonate with Anna. Anna is a client of mine. She is a member in our premium membership community called speakeasy, which side note totally checked out.

(00:50): If you haven't, you can learn more@clientsandmoney.com, but Anna is, she allowed me to record her and share this episode with you. She is a holistic health coach and a yoga instructor teaching. She does so, so much stuff she had for women. It's a lot of health related topics around women, specifically relating to like hormonal imbalances. Maybe you've got a chaotic life that's affecting your body. And she works with women who have lost babies and are trying to get pregnant again. People who struggle with fertility issues. So all sort of like a women's health, really. And so it can be hard to navigate conversations about buying your program when the topics are sensitive. Right? And we talk in this episode, we talk in this recording too, about not only is it a sensitive topic, but the environment right now, right? With like, COVID like can feel like nobody's got any money to make investments in their health. So tune in for this episode, I hope you love Anna. You can go say hi to Anna anywhere online. I wanted to pull up her website here. So you have it if you want to connect with her outside of this episode. Yeah. So you can find her on Facebook or Instagram and Anna shell. Ray it's S H a L R a Y. Anna shell Ray, S H a L R a Y. Otherwise just reach out to me and I'd be happy to introduce the two of you.

(02:09): I'm calling that particular conversation up. So she said things are going okay. I think my body is still adjusting and doing some pretty strange things. I think now more or less, we're just letting things happen as they may. So it went from, yeah. From sign me up. I'm ready to, we're just going to let things like, we'll just see what happens. I'm like, okay. I said, it definitely does take a while for our bodies to adjust. I love that you're taking a relaxed approach to growing your family. Here's that guide I mentioned earlier about happy, healthy hormones. I spend a lot of time pulling this together and I want to make sure it's actually helpful for women. Like you, your feedback would really help me refine and refine it and support other women on this path. Would you be open to sharing your takeaways after you take a peak? Because I had already like mentioned it to her and said, would you be willing to like, look at it over for me kind of thing. And she'd said yes, but then that was like the last response. I never got like another response from her. So I'm like, so, but I mean, we've kind of kept in touch, like, like, you know, just commenting on Facebook and stuff like that. Yeah.

(03:11): Yeah. So in, in the sales part, in the sales process, it's like, when you're, you're getting them to identify how much this problem is impacting their life and how clearly they need a need a solution. It's not something that you can talk them into. It it's something that they have to discover on their own. And then those answers become your leverage later, if they get cold feet, which is perfectly normal, right? Like most people don't make these like, hell yeah. Decisions. They're going to say, okay, like I'm a little scared. I don't know. But like, I'm going to just take this one little small step forward. Right. So it sounds like it could be something like that. So anyways, so depending on the nature of the conversation that you're having upfront, I would ask her like, making sure that you're asking her, like, why does she want this thing?

(03:56): What has she tried to solve that problem? You know, why does she think that's not working? Because if she admits she's already been struggling for two years, and then later down the road comes back to you and says, we're going to try a little bit, like, we're going to just keep trying for another, you know, six months or so. You'll have relevant information where you say, Hey, like, can I just make an observation based on our conversation, it might be kind of personal, but I just want you to know that I would really appreciate just like a really honest answer. You mentioned you've already been trying for two years doing what you've been doing as somebody as your health coach. I don't feel good. Like I can't in good conscious, like, let you keep doing the same stuff over and over again when we both agreed that this is something that could help you. Right. So can you help me understand, because I must have misunderstood what you've done or what you've tried and what you really want. So you can clarify, repeat back what she told you, but then take sort of the responsibility of not understanding. And she'll clarify whether this is like it a logistic objection, or if this is like a resistance. Objection. Does that make sense? Yeah.

(05:14): And then do you like the idea of taking those who have the logistical rejections and pulling them together into a better fit program instead of like $500 a month or a minute 97

(05:26): And then you're just, co-creating a solution. Cool. So she doesn't, then she doesn't see how that offer is relevant logistic. Objection. That's like, I'm not quite sure this is relevant to what I need. So then you're clarifying that the resistance is like, I'm, I'm afraid.

(05:44): Are you the right person for me? Kind of thing. Yeah.

(05:48): Cool. So you let her off the hook way too easy.

(05:52): I'm like, I don't want to be pushing,

(05:54): Saying that you say that say, Hey, I don't want to be, I don't want, I don't want you to join this program if you don't. But as a health coach, and as like, as somebody who is on a mission to X, Y, and Z, could I just make an observation? You told me that you've already been doing the same thing for two years. I'm worried that if we don't change the way that we're approaching this six months, they're going to go by and you're still not going to be where you are. Can you tell what's going to change? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, it's like really, really like sticking up for them, sticking up for what they told you. And you can take the pressure off by just saying, Hey, I must have misunderstood. So all I really want to do is just honor, like, I don't say honor your truth, but like honor as important you understand? Yeah. Honor.

(06:42): The words that you shared with me earlier,

(06:45): And if you make it about the mission, like what your OD, it becomes less about the thing that you're selling. Like it's really important to me that the people that I'm speaking to are actually booking happy to pay clients. Right? Like that's the mission that I'm on. So this goes beyond just whether or not you're buying from me. Yeah. Could you hit record by the way I did. I was just making sure. So I think like I need to

(07:10): Burden and not just like letting people off the hook and then, you know, make sure that I'm. I think the other thing I struggle with when it comes to getting deeper into this conversation is I send novels instead of like one question at a time. It's like, I want to share all these things with you and make sure that we have this full conversation. You don't just goes to me. Mid-Conversation so I'm just going to put it all out on the table.

(07:32): And I think people need breathing room

(07:35): To like process one question at a time and like one thought at a time. So that's something I'm working on. And in these responses

(07:44): The copywriting principle that you give them one complete thought to think at a time. Yeah. So we've got position, for example.

(07:52): So with that last thing that we were just talking about, would you say, could I give you an observation question, Mark, and then wait for a response, like get consent and then go through. Okay, cool. Cause I would've sent that as one message.

(08:05): Oh, no little teeny. Bite-Size like, can I make an observation if she doesn't respond within like a day or two, I usually give them some space. I'll simply respond back with them. Because if you can give a, because it helps justify your request and it's easier for people to comply, then they know like, okay, she's not trying to bait switch me like she is, she's asking because she cares. Yeah.

(08:27): And the, because I'm on a mission to make sure that you get the support that you need

(08:32): Because I care about you. Yeah. Because you're a piggy matters to me. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be profound. It could just be as simple because I'm curious, right. When you add, because it, it helps in their mind justify and it helps you kind of re migrate the conversation without being like, Hey, if you see me, I'm here. Yeah. I remember that thing. But all of this, all of this is really hard if we're not sort of getting the right information up front. Right. So like, if you never really asked her why her method isn't working, why, what she's tried, why she's still struggling two years in, what does she think? And you don't get those answers upfront and you're like, it's there. You just kind of have to cut your loss. Right? You like, you have no leverage leverage. Yeah.

(09:16): We had a lot of the conversation like over a chat. So I didn't have like the paper trail of it. And I think the reason I booked my last big client was because I literally wrote word for word, everything. She was saying to me and our initial video chat, we were talking and I was going back and forth and writing everything. And then when she started feeling nervous and being anxious, then I was able to literally copy and paste. I said, because you said, you know, and that's how we kept the ball rolling. So I learned from that. And I definitely think that next time when I get into the whole video chat situation, that I'll take better notes.

(09:54): Do you think that in these conversations that it's like too buddy, buddy, maybe, maybe, yeah. That can undermine the pitch part if they feel like you're just like a buddy and not somebody who's like an, a, like an authority in this area and who's going to walk them through this. So

(10:12): Some like words or phrases that you can use to set the tone of authority. Like I provide like this warm and open space. And I think then it feels buddy buddy is because I want them to feel comfortable with sharing something that's really hard and really deep and really personal. And so I try to meet them with like, I'm talking to you about this first and foremost, because I've been there. And because I've been to the other side of this, and I know what it takes to get there and like what it takes to move through this process, because it's like, you're holding your breath for a year, you know? So making sure that you have someone to lean on along the way. And so I want to create that rapport, but I also, like you said, want to have the authoritative like this, isn't just the Google search. That's going to leave you confused and wondering if you have, you know, 15 different things. This is like a very personalized look at exactly what you're going through.

(11:07): You're really there to help them like leaning on you. It's really just like a perk. Like what they get from you is like profound experience and education

(11:17): Connection to resources further. And that was another thing that got me excited about potentially doing a membership is I can bring on, I have a network of experts that provide support in other fields that know those fields more deeply than I do. And so as I find that my members are struggling with their pelvic floor, I have a mobile pelvic floor, physical therapist that offers online support as well. You know? So just being able to bring them in as experts to do sessions with. But yeah, I can't do any of that unless they bring people in the door.

(11:48): Okay. So what if the law of long-term community support like a second tier benefit, but like what would be the first one, the bigger package? You know, like if, if they've got, they probably have like 10 problems, right? So out of the 10 problems, if like the second most pressing problem is like community leaning on having sort of this support system, what could be the first emphasis?

(12:13): I would say, like getting to know and nourished or hormonal health, but like to break that down more, they see that they have a bunch of different problems that can be emotional, physical, and they all link back to their cycle that they have no idea, like anything about, we weren't taught that in school, you weren't taught the phases of your cycle or how to nourish yourself through each of them. And so body literacy is a big part of it, but then also like getting down to, okay, this is what your body's telling you. Here's how to interpret that message. And here's how to readjust and re recoup. And a lot of the women, like pretty much every single one that I work with, it starts with their routine and figuring out like, she's like, I don't have room. I don't have room in my life to like make a meal for every single meal. I don't have room in my life to eat well. I don't have room in my life to move well, to take care of myself. So it's first and foremost, like optimizing a routine that allows them to have room in their life for them again. And then we get into the actual, like body literacy, hormonal health, and then the support along the way movement, you know, so cool.

(13:22): Okay. So when you say nourish your hormonal health, what's the point in their life, or they'll know that they feel nourished or that their hormonal health is nourished? No more acne, no more bloating, no more pain.

(13:37): Well, crappy irregular cycles when I was actually, maybe you are a really good list of like I made a list. I feel like you were in my head, why you need this

(13:50): Rattle, rattle it off

(13:51): Physical reasons. Maybe you're dealing with all those hormonal things that I was just saying. Irregular heavy absence cycles, cramps, migraines, brain fog, skin issues, acne, bloating, constipation, slow digestion, exhaustion, fatigue, body aches, muscle fatigue. My boobs are nausea, frequent yeast infections. This weight fluctuations in stable hunger issues like Oh, insatiable hunger issues, right before cycle fertility, challenges like trying and like having a bunch of early miscarriages. That's a big deal. Like the fact that nutrition and, you know, these lifestyle shifts can actually help women who have had like three early miscarriages is, is huge. And then mental and emotional moodiness, anger, rage, depression, irritability, PMDD, agitation, feeling heavy side brain fog, anxiety, low energy, trying to keep up with busy life forgetfulness, lack of motivation, swings. Yeah. Some of that was repetitive. And then long-term impact productivity, energy flow, understanding your body on a deeper level, just better overall health.

(15:02): Because once you start nourishing yourself through each phase of your cycle and like really knowing how your body works and what it needs, you're going to see this radiate into every other area of your overall health, as well as your connection and your relationships, because you're no longer raging at your husband all the time. My partner, a routine that those you up and leaves room for you, stable mood and blood sugar, mental clarity, better relationships, a happier calm. Are you simple, common sense approach to taking care of yourself well, knowing how to eat and move for your unique body and your goals, connection to help you find resources. I can't read my own handwriting. Apparently find the support that you need from testing and supplementation and complimentary therapies. So basically no

(15:49): More guesswork. This is, this is a really great list.

(15:53): I broke that down and I also was like, well, who am I helping the woman with just hormonal health issues. That one day wants to look to grow to her family, like my ideal client right now, the one that I'm working with, but I'm really, really, really enjoying working with like, we had a session yesterday and I went 20 minutes over because I was just having such a good time with her, but I was like, dude, you're perfect. How do I need three more of you?

(16:16): What triggered her her life to like seek and pay for Harel to,

(16:21): It was a referral. And that's how most of my clients have been for my higher ticket program. It's a referral. And I'm like, which is great, but it's like, I don't know how to make that happen again. If I don't still have a bunch of incoming clients, what happened in her life that made her seek help. She and her partner decided that they were ready to start growing their family again. But she knows that she has some hormonal health issues. So she's got bloating and skin issues and pain and unstable luteal phase, which basically means like one month from our population administration, it'll be like nine days. And the next month it'll be 16. The next month that'll be 10. So she's like, I know something's up. And she also has a toddler at home and her life is really busy and she's considering starting her own business.

(17:05): And she's like, I need to figure out how to support myself well and how to manage my life that I already have. And then also support my body so that we can like move forward down this path of growing our family and the next year. And so that's why we have a year term support so that we can like focus on her, her life, her stability, and getting herself into a good groove, support her hormones far before preconception phase, because that leads her to better outcomes in pregnancy. And then also support her through pregnancy and get her set up for the postpartum season. So that's kind of like the longterm

(17:40): Goal of our work together. So this is one thing that you'll want to keep in mind. Is that not only do you want to speak to the problems, right? Like women have all these problems, right. Insatiable, hunger, if you know, the physical, the cyst, the weight gain the cycle. Sure. But that doesn't mean that they want to solve it. Right. So we have to find sort of that like trigger moment where they're like actively looking for a solution and you said something like, they want to start a family, they want to manage their life or they want to get control of like, what's happening in there. They're like kind of stuck in this body cycle of like, not feeling good when they want to get off that, that roller coaster. Yeah. That's what I use a lot is the roller coaster ride. Okay. So when you're having these conversations with people, just ask them to start asking them these questions.

(18:24): Right. So if you're using your content is kind of like identify the problem. Then on the back end, you're qualifying like, Hey, like you mentioned that you were struggling, you know, with your insatiable hunger. Is this something that you've been, can I ask you a couple of questions about maybe about your body, how you've been managing your life and your body. Right. So it's like if we can frame it and kind of qualify them with the things that is going to motivate them to sell or just pay you, that's going to help you facilitate the next natural step. So the solution, right? Like you want to make sure that the people that you're speaking to are motivated to solve that problem. And so the question is just something around these, right? Like I either happen to help, you know, people who are starting a family or, you know, to grow their family or like trying to get a handle on the way that their body is responding to a crazy chaotic life.

(19:12): Yeah. Right. So then essentially what you'll do is when the conversation then gets to the point where they're like, you know, I've been to the doctor, I'm not, haven't really asked them for those medical tests. Kind of like what you had said previously, that lady, we were like, Hey, you should probably go get some tests by your doctor, suggest that, but then happened to say like, if you want to go through a bigger, you know, if you want to get some sort of ongoing support and go through my program, which will emphasize body literacy, establishing a routine and then optimizing your health, like if you can sort of distinctly kind of productize your method, I've got a really great program. That's got three steps it's going to help while your hormones come back and talk to me, or we can talk about that and schedule an appointment.

(19:56): Cause I think you're going to be a really great fit for that. Your people have to be sold on you. They have to be sold on themselves that they can do it, but they also have to be sold on your offer. And if the offer just feels like, I don't know everything in the kitchen, then they're probably better off just be by themselves. Right. But if you can say like, Hey, when you come in here, my primary goal is to make sure that you've got optimal health and I'm going to do it through this three-step process called like B R O right. The body literacy there. That's helping them with their routine and then optimizing their health. Like whatever sort of you can succinctly say that makes the most sense to your method. Like it doesn't have to be profound. It could just be like these three things that you're going to focus on body literacy, which is really cool. Right. And then the routine, which is also a really great angle that will help them, their objections of like, but will this work for me? I've got this crazy life or this crazy schedule. And then the third one is like, whatever else you said, I put optimized, but it sounded like

(20:58): That's the right word. Do you think I should add like a fourth step of like community connection, support, accountability, kind of a,

(21:05): Yeah. I think that's really important. And that's what they're missing. Yeah. I help you go through this. But I think the other thing that's really going to miss from anything that you can get at a doctor is having a community of people who are going through what you've been in or on the other side, how great would it feel to be able to lean on with like on a community like that? Yeah.

(21:24): Okay. So I feel really good about this part of it, like really good, like excited to like break that down and to have better conversations, ask better questions and really reflect towards like, I think, like I said, that conversation with the last client that signed on with me, like was so eye-opening about how powerful that is. I think I was doing it in bits and pieces, but really like buckling down and like holding her accountable to what she had said made a huge difference. That all being said, where are my people? How do I get them to talk to me? And how do I, like, that's where I'm really feeling the struggle bus. And I also just feel exhausted. Cause I feel like I just keep like hopping in these groups, making all these comments and not really getting anything from those comments into the DMS or just, I don't know if that's the best use of my time. Should I like start trying to be featured on podcasts instead? Or do I need to keep doing both? Or like, is there another angle that I'm missing? I don't know. I think you get me. I just feel like I'm not using my time wisely because I'm not seeing return on that investment of time and just hopping into these conversations. But I do know that my people are there. Like there's thousands of my people just sitting there that need my help suddenly. How do I get them to me?

(22:39): So one thing that I have done for myself that might help you is that when I, I have taken somebody who is this, like has a Facebook group, put them on my podcast, had an interview or a conversation or a training. And then what I'll do is I'll go back to the Facebook group and then I'll promote a podcast episode. I'll promote the interview. So, and I'll like, I'll kind of shine the spotlight on the group owner while still like, they know I'm exist and we're talking about X, Y, and Z, right. It is sort of like a little workaround, like, and that allows me that exposure without like being hype-y about myself.

(23:20): I love that I can do that. I have a few groups in mind to do that with so second group type second group type that won't work for. This are the forums. So I don't know if when you were pregnant, you ever joined like a due date group, but they're not like you didn't, Oh my God, they're the best. So you get into a group of women who are all do the same month as you, so you talk through like pregnancy and like all the aches and pains. And then whenever have their babies, everybody posts their pictures of their baby. She was really fun. But there's like groups like that that are more forums where we all talk about the same topic. We're all, we all have the same problem, you know? So I'm in a bunch of groups like that around either hormonal health or pregnancy after loss or around just like trying to conceive. So it's like, what's the approach there because it's not like there's a group owner that needs help or, you know, I can't openly market. I could probably do like a, did you know, like quick fact kind of thing, but

(24:18): That's not those don't

(24:19): Really get as many views as like here's an observation predictor kit tasks. Like, does it look positive? Those are the kinds of conversations that, and you know, I'm having these hormonal issues. What did you do in the situation? And those are the ones that I've been commenting on. They're not really going anywhere.

(24:36): Could you move the conversation? Like, could you say, Hey, like I happened to run in the same group as you, or I've noticed, like you've said X, Y, and Z, like, would you be open to sharing your opinion or your experience with X, Y, and Z, and then like, you're taking, I know you don't have a podcast and I don't want you to like, put more work on your plate, but like you could. I mean,

(24:54): I have pictures, I took pictures at my last photo shoot of me, like ready for a podcast. So eventually I will have a podcast, but not anytime soon I need to get this stuff done. First

(25:07): One really great thing that I have found is the best, like the best content to create is the one about them. So like, if you could take the community that you're in and facilitate something that puts them that recognized as them, that honors them, where they start to know and associate you with this, if they know that you do this, they're going to ask you about your work and that will naturally facilitate a sale either with them or with somebody that they know, because maybe they actually have the problems that you solve. So

(25:44): I think I could do like a target research thing is though, if the admins will let me and maybe just say, you know, Hey, I'm working on something to support other last moms. Like, can you tell me more about your experience? And then I could also, probably in the craving clean community, do like a week of just some kind of like five or seven days thing where we talk about like very common hormonal health issues. And I could probably try and get it to group members about like, Hey, if you're dealing with ABC, we're going to do this free thing. And I'd love to hear your voice in the conversation. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out like what posts would get approved,

(26:25): But I mean, you can go out of your way to say, like, this is no picture, no pressure, but like, as some, but as a former mom, who's gone through loss and wants to turn my pain into purpose. I'm able to help other moms with X, Y, and Z. So getting their feedback and their experience is really helpful for this project I'm working on. Right? I'm still, you can even say I'm still developing it, but just getting some conversations going and a really open and honest way.

(26:52): The other thought I had was taking my target research or my market research question by question and just posting individual questions in my group to get the conversation going well. Cool. I think that'll work. Do you have any advice on other avenues of like how to find my people? Cause the other thing is like even women in business groups are my people, you know, I don't necessarily have to just look in these loss groups or hormonal health groups. And the other thing I've seen a trend in is in the loss groups and the hormonal health groups, they want free content. They want to be a fly on the wall. They just want to talk to somebody who's currently in the thick of it. They don't necessarily, I'm sure there are plenty who do want me, but they don't necessarily want a paid support option there. So it's like my people are there. There might be some of them who want a paid support option to help walk them through the process or they aren't aware that that even exists. So that's one Avenue I still want to work on, but I think that it might be good for me to kind of look at another way to bring people in. Is there

(27:57): Anything that your clients are spending money on to solve the problem?

(28:01): I have a list. Like sometimes they'll buy juice plus or most of my vitamins of some kind or essential oils because they're like they learn that some essential oils can help with hormone balance. And so that's why that content that we talked, that we wrote together about like putting a bandaid on a splinter or abandoned on a gaping wound, you know, like, yeah, that's all great. It might help with some of the symptoms, but we're not getting down to the root causes. Like you need some freaking stitches. So I think that they're spending money there and maybe some of them are like doing chiropractic or acupuncture or like some other kind of like complimentary therapy. I've been really amazed by the women that I've talked to that literally have no idea what's happening in their body. So that's why the whole body literacy component is huge.

(28:48): Let's see, where else are they spending money? They might be spending money on a therapist if they're wise and I've considered like trying to add, I actually do have a deal with a therapist in perinatal loss so that if I have a client that's like, I don't care how much you pay me. Like you have to be working with her to work with me because of where you're at in your grief. I had to deal, worked out with her. That's like a really, really cheap rate for some really high quality support. So yeah, maybe a fair question.

(29:15): I didn't say you could ask, these are all really great questions that you can use to create content and get those hand raisers. Because again, you're always going to have people who want free and don't want to spend. So the more that you're speaking to those who are spending, who are looking for a solution who are aware of their pain and what's available in the market to solve this problem the quality of conversations you're going to have.

(29:37): So the question and like the trying to conceive or lost support or hormone health group would be like, what have you purchased so far on your journey? Like to like, what, what supports are you paying for? I don't know. Like how do you ask that?

(29:54): So I just say like, is there anything that you've bought that has helped alleviate your stress or improve your health?

(30:00): I do. I take those people who answer, like, what do I do next with them? Do I just take that as research and use it for content creation? Or do I actually like continue a conversation with those people that are actually buying things too? Yeah.

(30:14): You could always say something like, what are you hoping that these things are going to do? Okay. That's good. Were you happy with them? Like, was there something that you were hoping that the essential oils were going to do? Was there something that you were hoping that the, the acupuncture would solve or alleviate some pain, but it didn't go away totally. Right. Or like, they'll start to tell you what the problem is without you having to like scratch it. Right. Or be like, Hey, what's your challenge with X, Y, and Z. It's like, Hey, I love that you're supporting your health. I love that you're looking for solutions. Did you have it defined, like, was, did that, was that beneficial? Like if you can get curious

(30:50): And when they start saying, yeah, it helps them, but not a lot. Like what's the next pivot.

(30:56): I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you're going through. I might have some ideas that can help you, right. Without it, you don't even have to buy any personal picture pressure. Just a really honest conversation about things that have helped. Then you say like, Hey, okay, check this out. And if you happen to want ongoing support or like to talk about maybe like three steps in a framework that I've created, we could schedule that later. Or we can talk about it a different day. So you're sort of feeding it, letting them know that it exists, but giving them the opportunity to walk through that door if they want.

(31:25): Cool. Yeah. That's exciting. So back to my previous question, do you have any suggestions on where else I can go? Like where I can find my people and how I can bring it up? Because obviously like the business moms I'm in a ton of the business moms type group, like boss moms and stuff like that. And I've actually found threads in boss moms that I've used for market research, because they're like literally golden statements from people who would be perfect for this work about like what their struggles are and what they're using, what they're doing. So outside of target market research questions, which I guess I could ask in the boss, boss, mom type groups, like I know Alison Hardy has a good one and Anna Fran done has a good one. They're like entrepreneur, women's groups,

(32:13): The questions in there about growing your family or starting your family or managing their life day to day and how it's affecting their body. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So the question is how do you find them outside of the face? Like other, other ways that you can find them, right?

(32:29): Yeah. So it could be, I mean, maybe going into different Facebook groups could be an Avenue, but outside of just being on Facebook all day, what else I do? I mean, we live in COVID land, so we can't really go out and do in-person events. But I have considered trying to do some virtual events with my referral partners. That might be helpful.

(32:53): I mean, yeah. You just have to go where the people are. Right. So like the easiest one for me is just pitching for podcasts and establishing relationships with complimentary industries. That's going to be a really great way to get exposure. So virtual summits is another great way to get, how do you find those? There's a lady that like teaches you how to run them. I wonder if she's got like some sort of like free materials.

(33:14): I think being on a summit would be helpful for me. I've attended a couple and I actually, the studio that was what I was doing this morning is they had like a vendor fair for Nashville for growing families, basically all sweet. So I had a booth

(33:30): I'm in like a PR community. I could put out some feelers and say like, Hey, does anybody have any upcoming like summits related to, you know, health and

(33:39): Hormones? Women's health. Yeah.

(33:42): Okay. So I can ask them in there, but I don't know how you find them per se. You could ask, like you could ask people, I'm speaking to you to just keep an eye open for any opportunities that might come up for them that are related to health women's health.

(33:56): There's any wind speakeasy that we could do, like some collaboration as well, because that might be good. I liked Melanie lien's stuff a lot, so I could reach out to her and just like develop a relationship and see. Cause I know a lot of what she does after people are done, working with me would be great for like my postpartum moms. Yeah.

(34:16): Cool. But just joined. And she's like a nutritionist nutritionist for a dietician. She's like a dietician for moms or family at the table. So she gives us like allergy season, like whatever, like allergies and whatever kids have to get him to sit at the table and eat. So, I mean, related complimentary topic and angle with within there, or I could just, I can introduce you to the group and just be like, Hey, if you know, and I do the group and put up some feelers and get some people talking

(34:45): I'm down. So can I tell you, I had an awkward moment. You referred me to someone on Facebook, which was amazing. And then I was like, I don't know what to do now. And my palms started sweating. I was like, Hey

(35:02): Well next time. Or if you haven't already, you say, Hey, I'd love to know more about what you're up to. I happen to be really good at this or this right? Helping busy families manage their health when it affects their body or grow their fan or start enroll their family. But if you don't need any of those, I've got a really great French toast recipe. What I'm letting them know that I want to talk about them too. I'm letting them know like what I'm seeing sort of the connection I'm always sort of, I want them to think Sean, in sales, I want them to think Anna and women's health. Right? So like getting, giving them that association, but then also giving them a way out. Like if none of this is relevant to you, I'd still love to be friends with you at hand you X, Y.

(35:45): Cool. All right. Thank you. As always, I feel like you and I hop on and talk about similar stuff every time, which is okay,

(35:53): It's just mastering the basics. It's just everything that you want is attached to a conversation. It's going to come from another person. And so the better that we can get at this, the easier it's just going to be from here on out. Yeah.

(36:04): And I think once I start like really figuring out like how to get these conversations, rolling the sales stuff. Like you've given me so much on like how to take them through the process. I'm not scared about that anymore. It's really just like working out. How do I bring more people in my little corner and develop really, really cool, fun relationships with them

(36:26): And the conversations don't always have to be with your ideal client. They can be with just people that you connect with about running your business or about, you know, raising your son. Like it simply is I'll, I'll just go out of my way to say, Hey, like if you happen to know somebody who needs X, Y, and Z, like a kind word goes a really long way, or I would love an introduction. Yeah.

(36:49): You get a list of like conversation starters and I got stuck, but I think re-purposing some of these like target market questions will help. I made a list of the questions that she's asking me, but it's like, then kind of reflecting on that, trying to figure out like what my conversation openers are. If I make some another like, kind of list of these questions, maybe I can send them to you and you can tell me like this works or this doesn't work. I don't know. But that's where I got stuck. I was like, I'm going to sit down and have this writing for him. He was shot at like a list of like conversation openers. And then I just like staring at the blank screen.

(37:25): Is this a conversation with somebody who you saw online and you happen to know

(37:30): Just like, just like in Facebook groups to like get conversations going around, associating me with women's health. So I think the question that you asked about like, what are some things that you've got that to help solve XYZ is good. So that's one,

(37:45): I don't how people who have busy lives, how it's affecting their bodies. I'd like to know what people crave or how their hunger changes depending on their cycle. They're waking, as they've gotten older after they've had kids, what foods make them bloated? What foods seem to help? Are they still breaking out? So it's like you listed all of these problems that they have. And so the conversation becomes kind of around keeping up with their family. Like when you think about starting a family, is there anything related to your health that's holding you back? Right? I mean, we have that conversation. I feel like every couple of months where it's like, huh, we should have another kid. Ha wait till I lose a bunch of weight. Right. But like that, I feel like a lot of what you do, I'm very much your ideal client or like was at a time.

(38:30): Yeah. Really speak to me. And so like, these are things that would sort of catch my right or breaking out right before your period. I mean, I just, I literally, I just asked my friend that I said, Hey, like I get a zit here on my lip and on my nose, like w what do I do? And she's like, Oh, buy this acne kit. And then by these acne stickers. Right. So like, I did that. Right? So like these, you, I'm looking, I'm looking for a band-aid or I'm looking for a solution. If you facilitate the conversation with your say, Shawna, like, I'd love to be able to help you get your hormones under control. One, that feel amazing. If you got off the cycle, that'd be, I'm already spending money on it. Right. Well, let's put you through this three-part process where you're going to accomplish a, B and C, right. And then have a community of women where you don't have to go to the, like, you don't always have to go to the doctors to get issues solved that you don't want to talk about with them anyway. Right.

(39:25): I'm glad you're recording this and writing that into a post shot. That's awesome. Okay.

(39:32): Just rest and repeat. It's like problem. Are you solving it? Why is it not working here? Here's a stock pitch. Just so you happen to know there's an invitation for you to actually get your hormones under control. And it's called X, Y, and Z premium program, premium members.

(39:48): Cool. So agitation and rage, like approaching that. Have you ever noticed that at a certain time of month, you feel extra agitated? We're full of rage. Yeah.

(40:00): How's that going from? Like, I don't know. I don't know how to,

(40:02): Like, how to do what you do with creating these questions.

(40:06): So you can, do you have a story? Like, do you have a client story that you could use who has felt that agitation or rage, or even yourself? I do have one, but I can't share hers yet.

(40:18): I have a client that had a stillbirth a year ago. And so I think that she was dealing with some postpartum depression. She is seeing a therapist and her therapist didn't diagnose her. So maybe not maybe, but she was like, I just feel full of rage. Like, I'm just freaking angry. I'm like, well, anger is like totally normal, especially for grief. And for everything that you're going through, go, let's see if we can like, kind of soften your reaction to your emotions here, you know? And we just talked through coping mechanisms and ways that she could use, like all of her senses, because you know, the first thing with emotional support is like, yeah, we're all going to feel big feelings. But if we can like, take a step back and like, notice what you smell, notice what you hear, like, take your shoes off the layers beneath you. Like, what's something you can do with your hands. And she made bread was like beating the out of some bread. Like, you know, just like, what are some things that you can do to help release some of that? And then you can like journal about it or do whatever, but like, let's get it out. So, yeah, raging, cyclically. And then we talked about like healing, you know, and nutrition and things that she could do to support. But yeah,

(41:25): So essentially, I mean, you could just, I was just pulled up my computer and looked at Reddit real quick, but you could just do a quick Google search and look for stories of like what women are like, admitting about their rage, right. When their hormones are going crazy. And maybe it's just like, this is a really embarrassing topic that a lot of women don't want to talk about because they have to admit, like, my behavior changes when my period is coming. And I'm like, you're speaking to what they're thinking. So like, this is why you need that market research. Cause I don't like, you don't have to make up the answers, but like, I'm just thinking for myself. Like, I feel like every month, like I'm like, there's like a couple of days where I feel like I'm on the verge of divorce. I'm like, I can't stay here. I'm calling my mom. I'm like, I'm coming home. I can't live with him. I don't sleep with him. I sleep like somewhere else in the house. Like, but it's still, and it's so embarrassing because it's like, I really feel that way.

(42:19): And then like later you're like, Oh, you're like the best person for myself. And like that I would put him through that. Like it's so it's so dumb. And so I'm sharing this with you because if you can speak to that, if you can say like, Hey, so like about, about every month, like, are you this person who struggles with this thing and realized in this is like, what's happening. Here's what I want you to know. I want you to know that you're not alone. And as somebody who helps women through their hormonal health here is some things that I want you to think about.

(42:55): So in a Facebook group, though, if I'm trying to create a conversation around that or get some hand-raisers of like, I really want to know how your busy life is affecting your body, like what impact it's having. So I really want to

(43:06): Know how I, maybe I just assume

(43:09): That they have this problem. Cause then they'll, self-identify like, I really want to know how your monthly rage before your cycle is affecting your communication or the like harmony in your home. Like though the way it feels to be at home or the way that, how your relationship feels, how it affects, you know, I know like, so I can get some more information on how deep this problem goes, you know, and actually start conversations in the comments.

(43:39): Right. So it's like, but again, you want your, you're only speaking to the people who want to solve the problem. I mean, you could get on phone with people who have this problem in our meeting it, but it's like maybe now, like, right. So like I've had to spend money. I've spent money on a therapist and a relationship coach, right. Would be a perfect person to like, you know, that I'm trying to solve these relationships with my husband so I can like better communicate, but maybe I'm having a communication problem. Maybe I just have hormonal imbalance. Right. Maybe I need like literacy to be in tune to like my cycle. Right. So I don't know where this is going, but I'm just saying that basically, like how do I,

(44:18): We were talking about lists of questions to start asking around the world of Facebook and all these different Facebook groups. So if I'm trying to bring up and frame this idea of anger and rage that is attached to your hormonal balance, the approach around like asking the question.

(44:35): Yeah. So you could brainstorm a couple of here. A big part of what I do is like the coping, right.

(44:40): So I helped them cope and then I helped them dig deeper while we start to like heal the root problem. And that's with every one of these symptoms, it's like, you can cope and that you can handle it while your body heals from it.

(44:53): Like, are they happy with the way that they respond a week? Like, are they happy with the way that they communicate?

(45:01): You were saying like, they're embarrassed the week later when everything comes down, they're like, Oh crap. Like I was a hormone monster. Or like, I was just, I lost my cool there. I couldn't keep my together, you know? But then it happens again, like they're stuck in that way.

(45:14): Yeah. There's a second one loop. That's a great point. So what would be, you might have to let the question percolate for a little bit, but you can always fill in the blanks or multiple choice or drop a gift.

(45:29): Okay. I'm going to get the recording from you. I'm going to go through my list of crazy that I wrote down about the why you need this. And I'm going to create a Google doc and write a ton of questions because if I have that pre done, then every day, I'll just be like 9:00 AM, post a question. And there'll be a process for me. And not something that feels like depleting. And that's what I want. Like I want to batch during that time, because otherwise it's just not going to get done, but let me do that. And then I'll, I'll email you back and be like, okay, this is what I've come up with. Is there anything that you would shift? And like you said, different types of contents, so like questions and gifts and multiple choice fill in the blank. And what I typically do when I post a question is like, I spend five minutes in the group right before posting and comments on a bunch of and then post the questions. So I'm still like, can you in conversations and trying to deepen relationships first before it's just like showing up like somebody that they don't know.

(46:25): Alrighty, two quick things before we go, which is stuck in a conversation, just take a screenshot and send it to me and I can help you sort of on the fly as they're happening. So the other thing I wanted to mention is I don't know if you're doing this, but in the conversations when somebody is experiencing their pain or they've been through like a really difficult time, sometimes if you change and try to fix that too fast, there's not enough gap for you to be able to sell. So instead of trying to like save them, you really have to lead them. So they don't need a savior. So they're telling you their problem. They're telling you their pain, like resist sort of like trying to solve the problem and save them right away. And let them just kind of sit in that pain where they realize like, wow, this is really crappy. And I really need help with, to get, I really need to get help. So,

(47:20): Or into the pain by saying like, so what impact is that having on you right now? Or that the suck to feel that way should bring in personal experience. So this is something I just did a sensitivity training around working with lost moms and felt super convicted because I do share my story because I want people to know what my story is. And one of the big no-nos in the sensitivity training was, especially if you're in session is to like take the focus off of their pain and onto your story, because it sounds like you're comparing grief, even if that's not like your intention. So they're like, you just need to be the person that holds space for them. And you can say, I empathize because I've been through something similar, but then stop hard stop. And if they want to ask, they ask, but even then you keep it to like two sentences and don't go into that, which I typically do. But I've had a couple moments with clients where we've gotten real buddy, buddy, and we've gotten deeper. So that being said in the comments and the situation where I'm like trying to lead and not save, do you think it's good for me still to share like, yeah. I went through something similar. Maybe that's all I need to say is I went through something similar. This really sucks. How are you feeling about this right now? Sorry, I just talked myself through that.

(48:36): Oh, that's great. I just shared it. I'll tell you in this post inside of speakeasy where that just happened, this lady who's been on the fence trying to join my program for like a year was finally like, Oh my gosh, I need you. Like, I feel like I'm ready now. And I, and B I didn't even sell her. I just said, wow. It sounds like this is really frustrating for you to still be in the same spot. Oh, that's a pain in the . Like here's all the things that have been happening. So like, if we solve the problem too quickly, if I would've just said, Hey, love to have you in the group. Let me go ahead and send you the link. Like there needs to be tension for people to change. And most people aren't honest enough with themselves to say like, I'm really in a lot of pain right now.

(49:16): I'm this really sucks. It's impacting my life, my family, my sleep, my skin, my weight. Like if they don't feel that and you try to fix it too fast for them, they'll get to the point where they say, well, you really encouraged me. Really kind of empowered me to go do this on my own. I think I'm going to, I think I could just try this for like a couple months. That happens a lot with me. It's not that you can't encourage them or empower them, but it has to facilitate kind of like a flow where they feel that tension or they then say, is this something that you help people with? Is this something that you do? Could we talk about like, do you think I'm a good fit for like, what do you do, right. Like then you say, okay, is this something that you want to solve? Right. Pretty big issue that it's affecting, like all this area of your life. Like, it sounds like it's pretty important for us to start solving.

(50:04): Yeah. Okay. So go ahead. I did create a testimonial form. It's called my bank's form because I hopped on to teach a class and I only have one person show up and she was in prenatal yoga teacher training. So she was just coming to observe. But then she shared with me that she's pregnant. She's got hyper thyroid issues. She didn't know if she was going to be able to keep the baby. Like, she was just telling me everything. And I was like, yeah, how that feel? And like talk to her through it and did like a mini health coaching session with her. And then she was like, this was incredible. Like, I can't even believe that you gave me this time and the space. And she's like, thank you so much. And I don't know how to repay you. And I was like, Hey, I accept testimonials.

(50:40): And they laughed. And like, they bite of it. It's just like, send me a form. So I made one for, and so doing little things like that, where I can like give and kind of give them like a mini experience of working with me, like I want to create more of those moments. So I hope that asking these questions gets Congress can like create opportunities to have more of those. I feel I still feel a little overwhelmed, not, I don't know with content. I think what I want to start doing is like the way that you're doing content right now of just like sharing stories about like what people has gone through instead of sharing information. I'm like, here's three ways to fix your hormonal imbalance because everyone is like, so you're constantly being told what to do. Yeah. So I think maybe approaching it and like she was feeling the same way you're feeling right now. And then, I don't know. I don't know. Do you think just like sharing testimonials all the time, like I need to go back to the content section on Coda and just have to see

(51:42): Communicate is different based on where they, where their awareness of the problem is. Right. So like use the testimonial to speak to where somebody is. So it's like, Hey, you know, this woman before she joined me was experiencing X, Y, and Z.

(51:59): Like

(51:59): When she went through these three core companies.

(52:02): And finally, like

(52:04): I had this aha moment in is now able to here's the testimonial.

(52:09): Huh. And then just open the door for like, Hey, if you want to hop on a, if you're feeling like she did and you want to hop on a call, DMS are open. Let's go, you know, or grab the link here to set up your spot and just keep that going. And then what about informational content? Are you for

(52:24): Clues that this is the offer for us, right. Do you help moms with five? How would you help moms with five who had them in seven years? Right. I'm more likely to go to the person that I think is going to help me. And so you use the stories as a tool to solve that internal dialogue

(52:42): For me. Right? That's

(52:44): The whole point of the stories we wanted. All that the water saves for us.

(52:49): Yeah. And I think I'm going to be able to start taking like personal stories, like experiences with him because he's teaching me a lot right now from about patients. And I think I'll be able to relate that back to, as I start writing more, he actually independently plays. So I feel like I have a little more room in my life to create some content

(53:09): I'm in a moms group that emphasizes it's like a big family group. Like you have to have like three or more kids and they always talk about wanting more kids, but feeling stressed out. Like they, like they're really stressed out. And so this might be another angle of potential clients where it's like, do you want to have a family? But the sheer thought of adding another kid, like sends you through like your, your stress through the roof. Right. So problem aware solution aware. That's kind of always how you're talking about your content. But yes. I don't know if we answered quite the question about how to use your testimonials, but if you're using the testimonials to share a relatable experience, that's them. So they see themselves in the story.

(53:51): What about informational content? Like, cause I mean, I want to be seen as an expert in the women's health side of things. So I think it's important that I do offer some valuable informational content, which I spent a lot of time a couple months ago just doing a ton on like different issues. But would you still frame informational content as story versus as like here are the three ways to support your gut health? You know, like I feel like that's so overdone right now. Yeah. I mean, would you still frame it as a story?

(54:22): Oh, frame it as a story. It's like a thousand children disappear every year versus Jacob Wetterling got off the bus was kidnapped on his way home from school and nobody found them a thousand kids are kidnapped every year from whatever, like which story sticks, which ones are you going to remember? Right. You're going to read the story. And so in the same way that you're presenting information, if you're like the three things for gut health, it's like, Hey, every time when you sit down to eat and like you're experiencing X, Y, and Z afterwards, like that happened to, you know, so-and-so who I will spend like an hour in the bathroom every time. Like, you know, like if it's, if you can lead with like this context and then the you're like you're giving the information someplace to land and like stick to, okay.

(55:07): Yeah, I can do that. I think that'll be more fun too. I think this is my last question for you. So beyond hopefully pitching the podcast soon or summits and trying to kind of look into that and dig deeper into that. Most of trying to set up a workshop series at the studio that I manage, because they're full of my ideal clients, not necessarily hormonal health, but women who are either early pregnancy or early postpartum. So I know I can still support them through that journey as well, but how do I grow my following without it taking a million years? And like, does that matter? I guess this stuff is more important. Like, what we've been talking about is more important, but like, is it worth my time to spend 15 minutes a day? Like on Instagram, on like on the hashtags or whatever, and trying to like make random comments on similar hashtags or

(55:55): I seen that goal, like is the goal to have a youth, to be honest with you, like in another world where Anna pursuit

(56:03): Business a little bit differently, I actually got offered a book deal and then film

(56:08): Pilot for a TV show for this work. And

(56:11): We wanted to push towards having like basically, you know, the doctors that TV show where they have like a round table of experts.

(56:19): Oh yeah. Kind

(56:21): Of like that means 30 minutes with Ray was my pilot pitch. And then we would also like go off and like meet with a master gardener and talk about ways to like grow food for your family at home, or to save money on your grocery bill, like little things like that. And it was really fun, but I didn't have the following to even bring it to network. And I had like the resources, like I have people that I could do something like that or have a book or, you know, so having a following could benefit me and other pursuits down the line. So I think it would be good for me, like over the next couple of years to start thinking about ways to grow my following, because like this isn't anything I'll pursue while I have young kids at home, but this would be something like he's at school every day. Like I have time to go, go film, go do whatever. So, I mean, obviously I have enough work on my plate right now, but I'm just kinda thinking like longterm as I'm building my routine and my workflow like to bring more people my way and start growing a following. Is there anything else that I need to be doing? So good question.

(57:26): Everything that you want in terms of the growth and like in the next level sort of dream is still going to come from mastering the basics. Yeah. If you can, I would focus on what is going to get people talking. So they start to do some of the heavy lifting for you and you.

(57:45): Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I know in my heart that I just need to focus on this stuff, but like it's hard not to look over it and be like, why am I not? Like, why don't I have like 40,000 followers if my kids had just network, you know what I mean? But that's not where I am. Right. The second life. And I really do need to, I told my husband this morning, I was like, how did this meeting with Shauna? And I really just want to get to a point where I have it in my head. Like, this is what I got to do first, second, third, every day. And this is what's going to help me see like a continual flow of clients. So it's not feast or famine, you know? Yeah. I mean,

(58:17): The growth that counts is going to be when you can treat each person that comes into your world as if they were the only one. Yeah. I definitely feel that way about my clients.

(58:28): It's hard when I'm like doing this math. Like I'm going to comment on 50 people's posts to feel that way about all 50 people. Okay. It almost just feels like a rush, like a mad dash to like, say something, get your face out there somewhere. But I think digging deeper into these conversations and actually starting conversations will give me a different energy about it.

(58:50): Cool. You're awesome. Thank you. You're amazing. Okay. Keep me close as you need me, send me those screenshots and I will, and you're in my ear all the time. Like I'm either listening to the podcast or you're like posting that you just did this interview with. So and so I'm like, Oh, I'll put that online, but this is a way, even if you haven't heard from me in a couple of weeks, I'm still hearing from you. Okay. Good deal. All right. I'll email. You certainly sounds good.

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