Have a podcast in 30 days

Without headaches or hassles

Highlights from this episode include:

  • The 9-word email that turns a dead list back into a cash-generating machine (1:23)
  • The simple way you can pitch in every email, even if you hate selling (2:38)
  • Statistically, this is how frequently you should be sending emails (6:54)
  • Surprisingly profitable topics that anyone can send to their list (9:16)
  • Successful email marketers approach every day with this specific mindset (9:58)
  • A strategy that makes email lucrative no matter what type of business you have (14:30)
  • The counterintuitive method for building a higher quality email list (25:29)
Read Full Transcript

There's two types of people who hear consensual sales in the first go, Oh, Eww, Shawna, that is not what you want to say. There are better words to use and the second type here, consensual sales and say, you know what? You're right. I don't want to talk my way into the sale. I don't want to memorize a script. You just want to work with clients who are excited to work with you. Now that's consensual sales.

I don't have like a crazy over the top introduction. I really just want to jump in because let me just say this. First thing that I want to say is I'm thankful that you're here because we all hear about growing an email list and we all kind of know and have an idea that emailing that list is important. But one thing that really stops a lot of people is they don't know what to say and if they do know what to say, they have also this secondary fear of how do I say what I want to say without just feeling like I got all these people on my email list to just trick them and sell to them.

(01:04): So I'd love to just kind of hear your thoughts about how do I realistically make money from sending emails.

(01:11): Well the first thing that you should try, if you haven't, if you don't email regularly or you haven't emailed in a while, is a nine word email and the nine word email is basically an email with a no greeting and no sign off. And what you're doing is you're just going to say whatever it is that you do. Let's say we were talking about Shauna and what Shawna does is she helps her clients close more clients in a, in a simpler, easier way without having to do a ton of sales calls that they might be uncomfortable with. So what you would just email them is, are you still interested in closing more clients in a simple and easy way? And that's it. That's the email. And what's going to happen is you're going to get a whole lot of replies and in those replies you just have a conversation back and forth to try to qualify them.

(02:12): And then if they're a good fit, then you enroll them in your program. So that's part one. The second thing that you can do is if you are not experienced or you don't like selling hard in emails, you can do something that's called a super signature, which is basically at the bottom of every email that you send, you add a P S and in the P S you say when you're ready or whenever you're ready, here's how I can help you. And then you list the different things that you have to offer. Let's say you, Shauna has a Facebook group, you can say, whenever you're ready, here's how I can help you listen to my podcast or join my Facebook group or enroll in my program. And you can add several offers the bottom of your email and you can sell passively that way.

(03:02): So there's a couple of things that I wanted to ask. Okay, so the first one is why does the nine word email work so well? Why does sort of like if I just send out, Hey, do you need help with, you know, insert the thing that I do and I hit send, why does that work?

(03:16): It's a pattern interrupt. People are used to getting email newsletters that are one, they're longer too. They have some sort of structure to them. Three, they're not really conversational. The idea here is that you're trying to start a conversation with your email subscriber and when they see that email in jolts them out of their normal email reading routine and it doesn't look like it's a newsletter broadcast to a bunch of subscribers, it looks like a personal email. And even the subject line will be something very simple like two or three words max.

(03:55): Yeah. That's something that I'm like super sensitive to is like if so much of what marketing feels like is this over the top hype show and how can you really just be as normal as possible. Like literally whenever I send an email I have to like take a deep breath and I'd be like, okay, I'm going to write an email just as if it were like if I'm sending an email to a friend, I have to consciously try to be normal because we're just constantly inundated with so much of putting on a show and hyping up your offer that it takes like this concerted effort to be like, okay, how does a normal person sound? How would I do this if it was a normal person reading it?

(04:33): I think that happens when you've got it in your mind that you're emailing a lot of people. Some people try to do it in this way where they try to think of one person like Shauna, who's your all time best favorite client?

(04:48): Yeah. You want me to say names? The same names

(04:54): So

(04:55): Oh sure. One girl in my program is really awesome. Her name's Alfia and she's actually a florist out of Arkansas.

(05:01): Perfect. And she's going to love it when she hears this.

(05:03): I'd be like, yeah,

(05:05): I'm sure there's not just one favorite perfect best client just so the other ladies don't get jealous so you can think of one of them when you're writing an email to your list and maybe you switch them out. Maybe today your emailing Alfia and it's basically like your talking to them as if they're sitting across from you and that makes it easier for you to sound more normal when you are writing or just talking to one person as opposed to many

(05:35): Absolutely. I also like how you are emphasizing that the whole email doesn't have to be this like convoluted sales pitch. You could just say what you need to say and then include a PS sort of style sales pitch.

(05:49): Yes. The reason why we do it this way is if you're emailing a lot, if you're emailing a lot less, then you have to be a bit more strategic in the way you structure your emails because they're seeing far fewer emails from you. If you email once a week, maybe you need to plan out exactly what you're going to say, what the offer is at the end, but if you're emailing every single day and you have a super signature at the bottom, then you really don't need to sell anything. You can just go off the dome.

(06:21): Absolutely. So I'm glad that you mentioned the daily email. Can we talk about that? Because I think people are gonna like crap their pants when they find out that sending a daily email can actually be a thing.

(06:33): Yeah, it's really a numbers game, right? So when you email, let's say the emailing the standard frequency, which is about once a week, which is how most people do it, right? If you have an offer that's say X number of dollars and you're emailing four times a month and you have a certain open rate and a click through rate, right, that's going to net you a certain amount of revenue of the firm, the people who buy, who bought the offer, and from that you're going to get a certain percentage or a calculation that's going to give you your earnings per subscriber or your earnings per email. If you increase that frequency to daily or twice a week or twice a week, what's going to happen is your open rates and click through rates are going to naturally go down, but they don't go down enough to offset the additional money that you're making off of the offer that you're selling.

(07:29): So what happens is you might make less money per email, but you're making more money total and more money per subscriber total. So it's really, it's just a numbers game and ultimately it comes down to preference. Maybe writing is not your thing. Maybe you don't have time to sit down and write an email every single day, but if you write the way I recommend you write, which is just talking about stuff that's going on in your life and then flipping that into some sort of teaching moment or business lesson or whatever it is that you do in your business, then writing emails is almost effortless because you're just talking about what's going on around you.

(08:07): How do you do that without feeling like it's just boring?

(08:10): Well, people love to live vicariously, which is why when you post stuff that's going on in your life on social media, it gets a lot more engagement.

(08:19): It's true. There was one time that I posted this picture of Mary who had ruled on my face and there was like this big slobber hundreds, hundreds of likes versus like if I like am very, very intentional and like craft this like perfect value poster. I'm pouring my heart into something specific, but it's, yeah, it's the real life sort of stuff gets way more.

(08:40): Exactly. And on social media you if you're a business owner and you sell on social media, then you need a mix. You need a mix of entertainment, you need a mix of education and you need the mix of pure selling.

(08:51): Okay. Okay. So, Hey and so when we were talking about how to write this, so I'm going to share just sort of like everyday life stuff in an email and I'm trying to make it not boring. What sort of the structure that you use to like write something like that? What's like the beginning, middle and end practically.

(09:08): Yeah. First it helps to live in .

(09:13): This is true.

(09:14): It depends on your audience, right? So Shawna, you attract a certain kind of audience online because of how you show up. You're a mom with many children and you run your own business and that's going to attract a certain kind of audience to you. So they're attracted to you because they find you interesting. So you can talk about whatever that's going on in your life and whatever that's going on around you, that's going to be interesting to them. And you also have to start being a little bit more detached and self-aware about the things that are going on around you with what I like to call content mindset because everything is content and you have to be looking for moments that happened during your day where you're like, Oh, that would be a great email. So that's, that's where it starts. It starts with that, that thing that happens during your day that gives you that spark.

(10:04): Okay, I can make a nice email out of this and even if you don't have that idea, you can still sit down at your computer and just start writing. After a few minutes of writing, you'll start to see a thread emerge and you can pull on that thread and if you keep pulling on that thread and keep writing, suddenly you have a story and once you have the story, all you have to do is segue into something that you can teach or some sort of benefit that you can pull from the story and you get better with experience. In the beginning, the segues are going to be a little bit hamfisted and abrupt, but as you write more emails that you send more of these emails, and this is one of the reasons why sending emails daily is good because you get a lot of practice. As you get better at writing these emails, you will get better at that segue and once you have the segue and once you've transitioned into the teaching moment, then finally you have the close, which is another segue where you will find a way to relate that story and that teaching moment to the product or the service that you have to offer.

(11:15): Yeah, I'm glad that you said that because it's interesting. I didn't know that that was like a thing, but I do something very similar where it's like, okay, I'm curious about this circumstance or I'm going through this experience and I like, I try to write the story and then only after that point do I try to figure out, okay, what's the nuance here of what I can share and pack the most punch? There's something to be said about writing those daily emails or writing on a regular basis that makes you a better communicator. It's like the more that you communicate and are trying to get your message across, it actually brings more of the clarity that you need to have a compelling message or to write with more ease.

(11:53): Yes, that's correct,

(11:54): And often we have these ideas floating around in our head and there are a lot of ideas. We get ideas for content. We get ideas for how to get better results for our clients. We get ideas for how we can teach something to people, but we never get those ideas out of our head and because we don't have practice getting those ideas out of our head, that's why writing is difficult and the more you do it, the better you get at the skill of putting your ideas out into the world or onto a piece of paper or onto an email. What is an idea that you have had or you've wanted to communicate more effectively and writing had helped you clarify those things?

(12:37): When I started writing my book.

(12:39): Is this the dragon energy?

(12:41): Yeah, it's dragon energy. It's still not finish it. I said, I haven't gotten around to thinking the last few chapters. When I started writing my book, I have these theories in my head about how to market yourself or build a brand online and how to sell and how to create content and the exercise of trying to put those ideas down into a first draft to help crystallize those ideas and now it's much easier for me to explain those ideas to people when I'm talking to them, whether I'm on a sales call or whether I'm, for example, doing a podcast or doing a live training with somebody in their coaching group. It's become easier to express those ideas and you start to get bit better at talking as well. So people who don't have experience public speaking, they have a lot of verbal ticks and one way to get better at that or reduce the amount of verbal ticks is to get more experience, public speaking or more practice public speaking. You can also do this by writing a lot because what will start to happen is your words will start to come out as paragraphs and pre-written sentences as opposed to stream of thought with a lot of verbal ticks.

(14:00): What do you think about going with Alfia for example, so she's a florist, right? What kind of daily email, like work for somebody like her who just has sort of these people who come to her for like weddings or it's a very seasonal thing. Maybe if you're a photographer as well.

(14:15): Absolutely. She doesn't have to sell anything. She doesn't have to sell hard. Like she doesn't need to write like a VSL or a long form sales page to sell flowers. She can talk about anything that's going on in her life. She can talk about how something that happened when she went to get her morning coffee or what happened when she went for her run that morning or something she heard on the radio while she was in traffic driving to her store or whatever it is and what something like a super signature. The passive offer is always there. Oh. And by the way, the nine email and the super signature, I didn't invent any of these things. This is, these ideas were from a guy, very famous marketer and copywriter called Dean Jackson. And if people want to look him up, they should definitely look him up.

(15:02): I'm so glad that you said Dean Jackson. I actually just wrote a post about that because when I was a cleaning lady, I would listen to iHeart marketing back in like 2011 and just listen to him and Joe Polish and I've loved them. I'm glad that you know them too, because they have some really great principles that I still use in my business. Okay, so what I'm sort of drawing from what you're saying is that you want people to get used to hearing from you, right?

(15:31): They've given you their email address either because they're our customer already or they've opted in somewhere, which means they've raised their hand and said, yes, I would like to hear from you. And if they don't want to hear from you, they can unsubscribe. So this idea that, Oh, I don't want to bother people by emailing them too much is a misnomer. In fact, if people stop reading your emails, you can always prune them from your list by cleaning the list of the people who haven't opened emails in awhile, which is what you on that screenshot you shared with me of your email marketing stats, which is what basically you did and the graph, I'm sure we can put it in the show notes for people to look at. You can see the trend of people seeing that you're sending for way too many emails and the people who didn't want to be on your list and receive that many emails. They unsubscribed and your list size tanked and then it slowly started to grow until now, which is now your email list is much bigger than it was before you started the daily emails.

(16:30): Yeah. There's so many times where I feel like there's somebody that I spoke to or there's something that I opted in and then I can't remember their name or I don't remember like the nuances of the offer and I'm trying to find that person and they just like disappeared and it's like I your clients, your customers may be actually waiting for you to follow up and send them an email. Like so the other side is absolutely true.

(16:50): Yes, that's absolutely correct.

(16:52): This is also one thing that I've really learned from you. So anybody listening, I have learned a lot from the Beal about email marketing and I've used some of his strategies too in the way that I deliver my own emails and one of them when I saw you do this, it totally blew my mind. But you share about the other things that you're learning. So like if you read an interesting blog post or if you want to elaborate on somebody else's point of view, you just like wrap that up into an email and hit send. And I was like, I can do that too. And so I love how it's not, this isn't always have to be about sitting down into computer and what do I write them today? It could just be the things that you're learning as well.

(17:28): Yeah. And sometimes I'll straight up copy paste an entire blog post that I read and enjoyed reading and then send that out as the email. And as long as you give the person credit and maybe give them a link back to the original article, go on their website is totally fine. And I've done stuff like, there's this Mr. Rogers song called can't remember the name, it's about taking action about doing things. And one time I just transcribed the lyrics to the song and I sent that as an email because it's a teaching moment is about taking action.

(18:01): Yeah. What I'm want people to know is that it doesn't have to be profound. It doesn't have to be this like big thing. It could literally just be whatever you find interesting, how you're going about your day, throwing that PS in there and really making it simple. And you've also, not only did I learn that from you, but I send that email, I attach it to a sequence so that way whoever joins my email list gets the same emails that are already there on repeat. Does that make sense? I know you know what I'm talking about, but maybe you could explain that.

(18:33): Yeah, that's an evergreen newsletters. So Shauna, what she's been doing is she's been emailing regularly for a while daily for awhile, maybe four months, five months, six months, however long that is. And then what she's going to do is she's going to take the best performing emails, the ones that get the most opens or the most sales or whatever that is, and then put that into an automated sequence, which becomes an evergreen newsletter. So whenever somebody new comes into your email list, they can receive those top performing emails, your best emails on an automated drip sequence.

(19:11): Yup. And I've also been able to attach like the podcast interviews I've been on or the blog posts that I've written. So rather than just sort of doing this like flash pan content where it's like one and done, I take it and I plug it into an email and then it's all just automated. So anytime somebody comes into my email list, they've got this rotating emails of my pieces of content. Right?

(19:32): And because you were proactive in doing that, now you can write fewer emails, you don't have to write every single day now and you can focus on waiting for that really profound moment to strike and where you get a really great idea for an email or a piece of content and then you can write that up and send that. And then once you've sent that and now you can add it to the evergreen newsletter as well.

(19:57): It also makes me like a better seller too. So I can go through all the emails and see what the best performing headlines are. So then that helps me sell more of my offers, what people are interested in, what's the highest click rate through. It just gives me more tools to be able to sell my stuff effectively. And side note, I actually, one of my best performing like social media posts was where I took my emails. I look through all the automations and I said, okay, out of all these emails, these are the top five best subject line open rates and I put that out there and that was something that people really enjoy too. So it just overall becomes a bigger part of the way that I sell. Right, exactly.

(20:37): And then if you're in the business of helping people with marketing or sales, now your email marketing itself becomes a teaching tool and another value add that you can offer your audience.

(20:51): I know I mentioned this before too, and this is something that I wanted to kind of drive the point home too, is that not everybody is ready to buy your offer. The moment that you put it on the table, right. There's some people who maybe the timing isn't right. And so what you're doing by incorporating like an email strategy where you're emailing them consistently is trying to hit them at the right timing when it's important to them, when they're ready to buy.

(21:15): Yeah. And this is another benefit of emailing more frequently, whether that's three times a week or every single day is that you're always top of mind and also because of what you mentioned that people aren't ready to, but some people aren't ready to buy immediately. I've had people who's been on my list like a whole year before they actually booked a sales call with me to try to find out about whether I can help them with their copy. Now having said that, I've seen some data from people who are far more advanced than me. Ramit Sethi specifically where he says that if a lead or an email subscriber doesn't buy within the first 30 days of them being getting on his list, that the conversion rate for that subscriber tanks, it drops off a cliff. So this strategy of regular emails of email marketing in general, the fuel for the strategy is adding new subscribers.

(22:14): Because what's going to happen is once a person has seen a lot of emails or eventually they're going to go stale and when they go stale, what I recommend is that you get them off of your list. But some people will still keep them on in the hopes that they eventually might buy and the sign is that you need to get them off the list is when they turn cold and they stop opening and reading your emails. If they are opening and reading your emails, then there's a sign that they're still interested in. They might convert down the line, but for the most part, yes, people will convert in at varying times. Some people need maybe years to be in your orbit before they take action and buy. However, the better customers or clients are the ones that convert soon after coming into your ecosystem.

(23:01): Do you have sort of overall recommendation of what those first 30 day emails should look like or maybe even like the first week or two?

(23:09): Yeah, so once you've got your evergreen newsletter set up, you've got your best performing emails in there. That's basically it. Once you get a string of 30 emails for that automated newsletter, you're pretty much good to go. And then the benefit of that is that you know that once a person has been on your list for longer than 30 days and we haven't bought, the likelihood that they're going to buy is much less so you can put less effort into nurturing that prospect.

(23:38): I see what you're saying. How are you getting people on your email list?

(23:42): I've stopped promoting my email list for a while now. What happened was I populated it with unqualified prospects and it's very easy to grow an email list. You can do it straight from your social media straight to a newsletter often without offering any kind of lead magnet. I used to do it on Twitter where I would announce the daily email that's going out a half hour or 20 minutes before it was scheduled to go out or sometimes an hour and that you can create some sort of curiosity around the topic of the email and get people to sign up that way and that grows your email list very fast. The problem with that is that you are going to get unqualified people on your list. So what you want to do is you want to create a barrier to entry. You want to create some friction and the ideal form of friction for people on your email list so that it is populated by only buyers is to get them to buy something before they can get on your list.

(24:40): If you have some sort of front end offer that you can sell them or your core offer that you can sell them before they'll get on your email list, then you know that's something that you should do. And that's the ideal scenario. But not everybody can do that. Instead, what most people will do is they'll create a piece of content that somebody can get if they give up their email address or in exchange for their email address. And most people think that the offer is being protected by the opt in form, but it's actually the other way around. The opt in form is being protected by the offer. And what that means is you want the offer to be gold to your perfect audience and shit to people who aren't your audience.

(25:26): Sure. So you're saying that you want to kind of create a little hoop for people to jump through, right? Yes. Okay. How do you reconcile that with making it super, super easy for people to buy your stuff? Because I was under the impression that you want to make it really seamless,

(25:43): That you want to make it seamless after you've qualified that they're a good fit for you. If you make it seamless before qualifying them, what you're going to end up with is a lot of unqualified prospects. It doesn't always have to be a content offer or lead magnet. There's an email copywriter or a marketer named Andre chaperon. His newsletter optin is very deep within a site and you have to basically read several pages of his content before you even find the email opt in. It's, it's almost hidden like seven pages deep on his website and that's the way he creates the friction in to people getting on his email list. So there's a bunch of different ways you can do it. My favorite way, which I haven't fully executed on yet is making people buy or pay to get on your email list and people do that with paid newsletters. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think a better way would be to offer them some sort of product. That way you know that these people are buyers were willing to give you their money.

(26:46): That's interesting. I wonder if there's a way that I could do that for myself. How do you see it playing out for yourself?

(26:54): Well, once I finished the book I could probably use that as the, the main way for people to get onto my list. I was also toying with the idea, I have a few long form content pieces, so like webinars or whatever that I've done with other people that I could use. I could probably package those up and sell for a maybe like a $7 offer or a $37 offer or a $49 offer and that would be like the only way for people to get on my list.

(27:21): Interesting. I'll have to play with that. Thank you for sharing that. All right. Let's go ahead and try to wrap this up here, but I'm curious to know like who is your ideal client toward the people that you love to work with and what do you love doing

(27:34): That's difficult to do

(27:38): Or projects? Maybe we're similar in the sense of like the ideal person may not totally exist but maybe you love certain projects.

(27:44): Well, I mean as far as clients go, my favorite clients are the people who understand what is required of them when working with a copywriter and those people are few and far between. It helps if they've worked with copywriters before and I've dealt with clients where I wrote copy for them who are extremely pedantic and they don't understand that their role is not to go through and critique every single word. And I've also dealt with clients. In fact, I worked with a client. Now if there's a scale of podiatry from one to 10 and the previous, the former client I mentioned was like a nine or a 10 the one that I currently work with now is a two. In fact, after the first month or so of working with them, he doesn't even review my copy before we post it anymore cause he's confident that you know, I'm representing him in the correct way and we've already gone through the process of him reviewing some of my pieces to make sure that he's comfortable with what I'm creating for him.

(28:42): That would be my favorite kind of client to work with somebody that understands that it's not their job, especially if they're not a copywriter to critique a copywriter's coffee because I mean what the hell do they know about writing coffee? Rather what they should be doing is the initial stages of helping the copywriter understand their voice, understand their personality, understand their market, understand their audience, understand what they're selling, understand why people are buying from them. And that responsibility falls a lot on the copywriter as well. When they onboard the client. So that's where the client's responsibility comes into sort of manage the copywriter. But after that, after you've hired a copywriter and you say, okay, I trust you to write my copy for me, it's much better for the client if they actually let the copywriter do their job.

(29:32): How did you get here? Like how did you get into the world of copywriting?

(29:36): It was an accident actually. I used to do some volunteering, this community center and because I was out of our group, I was probably the best at writing or with the English language. It sort of fell to me to write their email announcements for their events and write collateral for their marketing posters and brochures and things like that. And at some point I got introduced to Rameet safety and Rameet is an accomplished copywriter himself.

(30:08): I don't know that he did copywriting.

(30:10): He talks about it actually. He mentions it several times on, on videos and things like that where he talks about, at one point he said, I'm going to get really good at this thing called copywriting. And I sat down and hand wrote all these sales letters. So he, he talks about that in a way. And after getting introduced to him, I got introduced to the entire world of online business and digital marketing in general. He was my first introduction to the, you know, the online entrepreneurship space after that. Well the community center was doing this two day conference and a friend of mine who also volunteered with me, he was commissioned to do all the branding and marketing for the event and they needed a website, they needed posters, they needed VIP invitations and brochures. They needed video scripts for marketing videos and he asked me to help with that. So that was my first paid gig and that was when I realized that I could get paid to do this stuff. And that was really five or six years ago. So I was doing it part time for a while and then a couple of years ago I went into offering my services full time.

(31:20): Good for you. What's the end goal? Do you have a certain goal in mind of like what you want to try to build here with your skillset?

(31:27): Right now I'm working or I'm focused on growing my copywriting agency. Right now it's just me and my business partner who is also my brother and that's Dropkick copy. We do B2B direct response copywriting. I'm focused on growing that slowly by adding clients methodically and eventually I will probably build it out to a more full fledged agency where I'm not the only one on me and my brother aren't the only ones writing copy and shooting content and at some point I would probably love to have a control, which is what we call promotion that is running on a long term basis for a client.

(32:06): What would you say is common myth in your industry?

(32:10): Well, I mean a common myth. Well, there's two myths. Okay. The first myth is one that business owners have where they think that they can't write, they can't write copy or they can't teach themselves to write copy, but the thing is they've written hundreds of pages, perhaps thousands of pages of social media posts and text messages. So everybody can write. Okay. And there's another myth, which is sort of the corollary to that, where entrepreneurs think that it's easy to become a good copywriter. Me personally, I've spent, I don't know, thousands of hours and you know, tens of thousands of dollars trying to hone my craft and I'm not even that good. I would say that I am slightly above average and if it's taken me that long and cost me that much money to get to where I'm at, it really is almost delusional for an entrepreneur to think that they can watch a few videos or swipe a sales matter or a Facebook post or a Facebook ad and try to sort of re reverse engineer that. It really doesn't work that way.

(33:21): Yeah, I often, I mean I've hired out lots of times too, but I often write my own copy and I've, you know, I've invested in that skill set too. And even then when people are like, can you do this for me? It's like you guys like either you got to write your own or you're going to have to like learn the skill because I don't even think I'm that good. It is a tough thing and it does not come easy. It is definitely something that you have to work at, so I think that you have done that quite well.

(33:45): Thank you. And another mistake that they make is once they decide, okay, I would rather hire someone rather than write it myself, is they hire a copywriter without a proper budget to hire a copywriter. This is where the line gets kind of blurry, where actually if you're going to go with a cheap copywriter, I would recommend to the entrepreneur to pay themselves that money and set aside some time during the week to teach themselves or learn the skill of copywriting as opposed to hiring a copywriter off of Upwork or freelancer or fiber for a pittance and then getting low quality work in return.

(34:26): Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad that you said that because it's still like a lifelong skill. Like you said, you're always writing. You're going to keep writing that. You might as well, like if you can't, if you can't foot the heavy bill, then just work on creating, developing it yourself.

(34:39): Yeah, and it doesn't take that long to get halfway decent to writing for yourself, you know? But at some point when you need more expertise to actually sell using copy, that's when you need to bring a professional copywriter in. And it also, at some point it's going to become unprofitable for you to spend the time that it takes to write that copy in terms of your bandwidth as a business owner, as your business grows, you losing money because as your business grows,

(35:11): As your revenue grows, as your effective hourly rate you make as a business owner grows, now it's not worth your time to sit there writing copy when you can hire somebody else to do it. And that's really the time when you should bring in an outside copywriter. And that's what happened with one of the clients I am working with right now. He's a competent copywriter on his own. He's actually spent some time studying how to write copy. You've had copied sales letters and stuff like that. And as he was growing his business, he realized that, okay, I need this copywriter and I don't have the time to do it. It's time for me to hire someone.

(35:48): Where can we give us your details? Where can we find you? Talk to you, speak to you.

(35:53): Yeah, you can check me out on drop, get copied, or Tom, just browse through the website and our contact details are on here.

(35:59): Awesome. All right. Thank you so much for sharing all of this good stuff. Until next time, thank you for listening.

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