You are listening to the Taps and Tees Show, weekly conversations for people passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino, an award-winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]
Marty: Hey everybody, welcome into another episode of Taps and Tees. My name is Marty McDonald and I’m the host of this show, where we talk about craft beer, golf and marketing and continuing on with our 2020 year just bringing on experts that I've gotten to know over the years through mastermind events, through doing another podcast and people in the industry that are just doing good things and got one more to close out the year here. So the last interview of 2020 of marketing related and a good friend of mine that I've gotten to know through a mastermind group, really, really smart. What I like about Jack is he's very direct without like sounding like he's yelling at you. He's got a mild manner. He's just relaxed and he tells you really good information. And Jack Jostes is a CEO of a name I love Ramblin Jackson is a digital marketing agency based out in Boulder, Colorado. And he works with landscaping companies throughout the country, mainly to increase their lead generation through local, local SEO and digital branding. [01:18.2]
He has a book out there. I'll let him talk about that. And he also has a podcast, which I'll also let him talk about as we go through the show. But like I said, the one thing I like about Jack is he's very direct and he knows his stuff. He did a couple presentations for the mastermind group that I'm in with him as well as did one in person when we were out in Colorado about a month or so ago and it was excellent. And the stuff that he puts through is stuff that any business as you're listening to it, you can put in place. So don't worry about him just focusing on landscapers, that's just what he does. But if you listen to him, the information that he puts out there about really getting connection with the audience and connection with your potential clients and customers can help any business out. So without further ado, Jack, are you there? [02:02.0]
Jack: Hey Marty, thanks for having me today.
Marty: All right, well. Since I gave you that intro, did I miss anything or you want to add anything to it?
Jack: That was, that was a glowing intro. And thank you.
Marty: Oh, you're welcome, man. It's good to have you on and looking forward to it. So tell everybody just a little bit about, you know, landscaper comes to you, you know, what are they looking for? What are their challenges and how do you help them? [02:25.9]
Jack: Yeah. You know, so typically landscaping companies come to me and the owner of the company is often frustrated because they're working too many hours. They are meeting with too many prospects and not enough of them are really qualified to buy from them. And they often spend many hours to figure that out. And what I help them do is dial in their sales process and their marketing. So they actually meet with fewer leads overall, but higher quality leads who understand before they even meet through their marketing and through their website. What is the price range for landscaping? How long does it take? Those are things that people often don't understand. And the result is that landscapers spend more time with their family, they make more profit and they enjoy their business more and they, they often end up hiring people to help them with this. So that's, that's rewarding to me is, you know, helping these landscapers create something that produces that result for them and allows them to enjoy their business again. [03:33.7]
Matt: That's awesome. Giving a little bit of a little piece of their life back, right?
Jack: Yeah, because you know how it is running, running your business, whether it's your agency or your brewery or whatever business your audience is listening to, it can take over your life, but it doesn't have to. And I think when, when you have your sales and marketing dialed in running a business can be really enjoyable. And unfortunately for a lot of people, it isn't, and they often don't realize that the marketing they're doing is creating a real offline, like real world impact for their business. So, you know, quick story, I had a, a client who actually loves golfing and he he does your irrigation for some golf clubs down in California. He was spending three, four hours a day driving around cause in California, the traffic's crazy meeting meeting with everyone who called in. And when I did an audit for him, we realized that he had an old advertisement from like 10 years ago with an offer that he was still promoting for services he doesn't even offer anymore. And he was wondering why he, why his calendar was so full of unqualified leads and it's like, well, you know, as you grow in your business, what you do, you get better at it, who your ideal customer is changes. And if you don't keep your marketing up to date, it can bring in, you know, bad results, old results. [05:03.3]
Matt: No, that makes total sense. And sometimes in those businesses that we found over 10 years of Bad Rhino’s working with those types of clients is that that's exactly what's happening is they have an offer that's out there that is floating around somewhere. And sometimes those things are weird is like they have an old web page up that they put up when they hired some company four or five years ago. And it's still valid like it's still out there. They never really shut it off, but their business changed and they just didn't have a time to go back to it. Plumbers seem to be one of the ones that have been the big ones for us that we've seen like, what do you mean you're getting all these calls and you don't have it on your website or anything. And you find some random webpage that's out there that somebody created for them.
Matt: That's still, still has everything. So no that's true. That's an interesting one though, having old offers out there, I think that's a good point to bring up for anybody listening this. You know, check all your stuff, you know, check your website, check what things have been out there over the years and make sure that if they are still out there that they're still viable for you. So how did you get started in this whole marketing game? [06:10.0]
Jack: Well actually, you know, I got started in marketing, through playing music. I play mandolin and I started a jam band when I was a senior in high school, which was, I don't know, 2003.
Jack: And that year my space came out and we literally went from recording our demos on boom boxes to squirreling away some money, to get into a studio, to get a CD. And then like you could upload MP3s to the internet, you know, like in a very short amount of time, the music industry changed. And I learned about marketing mainly just by figuring out how, how do I get my music on my space? And then when I was a freshman in college, Facebook came out and I still played in my band and I started managing our email list and it was all purely, just out of how do I get people to show up, to see my band. And at that time it was Facebook, my space email, you know, literally passing around a piece of paper for people to sign up, to get, to get updates. [07:16.3]
And when I I studied theater and journalism in college, and when I graduated, I realized, well, in a way, the economy tanked, no one was hiring journalists because the whole industry was shifting to digital and there was a recession. And I realized that at that time, that small businesses really needed help with writing and social media. And I couldn't find a job honestly, so I just started doing freelance work. I worked briefly as an employee, as a milkman at a dairy farm.
Jack: Doing door to door sales. And I got really bored of that. I wanted to write and kind of by accident started a marketing agency, Ramblin Jackson. I, you know, originally it was just me doing social media and writing. And eventually I started learning search engine optimization and later acquired another agency. And a few years in, I realized that I could build a real company doing this and I couldn't do it on my own. And that's when I met, I started checking out Jason Swank's content, who has the mastermind where you and I met. [08:21.9]
Jack: That was, that was it for me, was mainly by accident. What about for you, Marty? Was it, was it a mistake that you started an agency? Like most people, how did you get into this?
Matty: Yeah, I mean the same way, I was just about to say, I think everybody is almost like an accidental agency owner, you know, as far as, you know, pulling things together and doing everything, how it started for me was same thing tt helped me out in my current job. And I just became enamored by the marketing side of it, the affiliate stuff that I was doing on side I would wind up putting more hours into that than my actual job some days. And that was just learning because I knew what I was doing as a head hunter. And I'm like, all right, let's get up, do this, do this nd then, you know, kind of call it a day. But at the same time, like how can I make things work better? Like, you're trying to get more people to see your band, as well as hear your music and then you start managing little things. I was doing the same thing. I had a whole bunch of emails and they were my prospect for head hunting. But then I was like, how do I get more emails? How do I get more people without, you know, trying to just cold call or do other things that you know, were commonplace. And then this whole social media thing started coming over and all those things just kind of came together. [09:40.1]
And it was just like, wow, I have a side business that was affiliate marketing and consulting for small companies doing websites and email lists and all that sort of stuff. And the next thing you know, is like, you have like a mini side business that then eventually turned into my agency and which was great. You know, like a lot of those things just kind of come in and more and more, I talked to other agency owners and, you know, people that we both know, it's not like a common way. It's, you know, you're almost doing it, like you said, in a freelance way of, Hey, I like this stuff, but how do I get a job? How do I start a business in it? And the next thing, you know, if you're good at it, you know, people will hire you. And it's almost like everybody's an accidental agency owner. [10:21.4]
Jack: Yeah, definitely. That's awesome.
Matt: What, so in running your agency and just having a one focus, you know, what do you like about working with landscapers and how did you get into the landscaping just arena?
Jack: Well, the way that I got into it, it was, I do a lot of public speaking. And at one point I did a lot of public speaking for Constant Contact, email marketing company. And I was hired to speak at a green industry conference in Colorado, the Pro-Green expo. And I ended up getting a lot of contacts and clients and really enjoyed working with them, partly because I used to work at a plant nursery and garden center in high school and college Pesci’s plant nursery or Pesci’s flowers in Desplaines Illinois. And so I just, I hadn't ever really thought about focusing on a specific industry, but I just naturally got good results for them. And they referred people and when I reached a certain point in my business where I knew that in order to really grow; I needed to focus on something. And originally it was local SEO and websites, and we still worked with every kind of local business in the area. And then I felt like I kind of reached the, the cap on that and what I wanted to focus on an, on an, on a vertical, on an industry. [11:41.8]
I looked at my revenue and I realized that a lot of my highest paying clients were green industry businesses and they were getting amazing results and I enjoyed working with them. So it’s those three things, there was profit, there was demand. We were getting results for them because people look on the internet for landscapers, for garden centers, for lawn care companies. And I just, I just enjoy working with them, it's fun. And I understand what they're doing and I enjoy learning about landscaping. And sometimes people say to me, Oh, that must be boring working with only landscapers. And it's like, well, the geography of the United States is pretty different. Everywhere you go there's something different, whether it's access to water or wildlife, certain paths, you know, to me it's fascinating and wallets it, what what's great is that it's similar enough that I, I have a very repeatable process and it still allows for us to produce work that's very customized for each person based on their location and who they like to work with. [12:50.1]
Matt: Yeah. You know, I think when you get into one or two industries, you can really start to see it and you kind of feel for their business and then it helps you, you know, I think, you know, we have a couple of different areas that we're very proficient in and then the other areas have been areas that we've been referred into. And not that we're not proficient in them. It's just that, you know, one minute you're working on you know, an e-commerce play for athletic wear. And then the next thing, you know, you're working on a box store, which is just trying to push out different products, via box service, monthly subscription, but it's a little bit different, cause it's really super niche down into one area versus working with a fortune 100 company, which we do. [13:38.7]
But the areas that we're, you know, in with craft beer and golf, you know, you start to see different pieces come up, even though they might be in different parts of the country, different types of facilities, different types of products, different types of training for the golf side, they're starting to come common themes and certain struggles and some of that's with the customer client, but then on other side of it becomes, Oh, well you do this at your facility. So how does your PGA instructor handle their classes? And then, Oh, well they handle their classes this way, but we also have a bigger issue because our facility holds weddings and then you're talking to them about that. But then the next time, and the next time, the next time you get more proficient in their business and it becomes fun because you can talk to them on a level where they're like, wow, you have an expertise in this and you're going to help us with our marketing. It's like, yup. And it puts you on a same level. So I'm sure you have some of those same feelings when you work with landscapers, no matter where they are in the country. [14:34.1]
Jack: Yeah, definitely. It just keeps getting better the more clients that we have and we're, we're able to learn more and more about them that we can share with other people. We also do have an exclusivity program though, where we're able to only work with person per city, if they're in our higher level, you know, level of work together.
Jack: That way we, one of the things we do is a mastermind where they can then meet with each other and not have any real concern of sharing something that their local competitor is going to go and go and implement.
Matt: Yeah, no, that's huge when you can do that. And I remember you mentioned that, I think that's really interesting. Plus you have the exclusivity, which makes it nice. Plus when you put them all together, they start sharing everything and stuff they might've learned from you, or actually just saying, you know, Jack and his team do a great job. So it gives you, you know, some other fun stuff to talk about where they're just recommending you more and more.
Jack: Right. That does happen.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, they did this for us. Oh, why didn't you tell us about that? We've had that happen just on calls and other stuff. It's not really a formal mastermind, but I get that, I get the whole idea. [15:52.6]
Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsAndTees.info and get our free report with game-changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan. [16:06.3]
Matt: So as far as that, like what works best days minus local search, because I know that crushes it for you know, providers like landscapers, but what, what types of things that have shocked you that are working for them now in 2020?
Jack: Well, so what, one of the things that, you know, local search for sure does work. And I think that our requirement for local search shore that people often don't realize is having strong reviews on Google.
Jack: Because I was just thinking, I don't have any clients who aren't getting amazing, like financial results when they've implemented, they have a great website, great local SEO, and at least 10 Google reviews. The only people I know who are not getting the results have, I don’t know, like three Google reviews or a negative review average. So I'm just seeing that, that reviews continue to be a, you know, a factor in even, even really big landscaping sales. So assuming you have those things and you're getting traffic to your website, something that's working really well is a pricing page. [17:15.0]
Jack: So we've started, we've started producing pricing pages for our clients. And we've even gotten picked up in rich snippets on Google for queries, like how, how much did landscaping cost in you know, whatever city and we're, we're like the featured snippet.
Jack: So people are definitely Googling that. But more importantly, I believe that the pricing page helps people actually understand how to become a customer. You know, every contractor I work with says, well, I want more qualified leads. And all, all the leads from the internet are not qualified. And it's like, well, in order for somebody to be qualified, you need to qualify them.
Jack: And if they don't, you know, if they don't know the information, then you're just going to get a lot of leads and people are often confused. Then they go to sites like HomeAdvisor or house, or I don't know, Lowe's or Home Depot, even, you know, some of those sites have information about how much should projects cost. And they're often like, you know, a 10th of what people really need to spend. [18:22.2]
So by having that pricing information directly on your website and creating brackets, we found that that helps people on that first phone call when they're like, Hey, Marty, you know, before we schedule a visit at your home, you know, would it be okay if we talked about the budget for your landscaping.
Jack: By the way, have you, have you reviewed our pricing page? Oh, no, I haven't. Okay. Well, great. Go to Jackslandscaping.com/pricing and you can see, you know, in this bracket, you can, your, your front yard redone; it's going to be between, you know, 10 and 15,000 or whatever their price range is. And they get getting to that kind of bracketing and price agreements sooner in the sales process.
Jack: I believe helps the customer and the contractor prevent either one of them getting frustrated that it's not a fit because of money. [19:17.5]
Jack: And put, putting, putting a range out there. You don't need to put a like itemized list. I'm not, I don't think we're quite at the point of buying it online. Although I have some I've have since seen some people do just the landscape design part being sold and certainly lawn care and things like that are being sold. But you know, that's working really well. The pricing page. The other thing that I believe a pricing page does is it helps a business train someone else to do sales, or you can train someone else to do that first phone call where they have, they literally, you know, like the front desk person pulls up pricing page. And says, great you know, our price ranges are on our website. What, do these make sense for you? [20:03.0]
Matt: Yeah, no, that, that's perfect.
Jack: You know it’s not really a lead generation thing, but it's more of a lead qualification. So once they get to the website, I always ask people, what do you wish your clients knew before the first meeting with them?
Jack: And they always, Oh, I wish they understood how much it actually costs to do landscaping, you know? And, and you know, a lot people will, when you ask them, how much does it cost? They'll say, well, it depends, but they have the, it depends conversation, you know, thousands of times a year. And, and you can, you can put it in a, you can help people understand what does it depend on? How many square feet is your yard? What, you know, are you, do you live on a hill? Do you have a, you know, a lot of tree, like, there's all these variables that you can just write down and help people understand. [20:57.3]
Matt: Yeah makes total sense and that's, that's an interesting thing. I mean, everyone gets squirrely sometimes when you talk about pricing, but you're right. If you want more qualified leads, sometimes you definitely need the information out there to at least guide the conversation. And I think that's a big part of it. So Jack, tell me a little bit about how one man made a million bucks by quitting beer? [21:17.4]
Jack: Yeah, great. Yeah, so so I am the man who made.
Jack: A million dollars by quitting beer. And so here's, here's the story. So it's a million dollars of revenue.
Jack: First of all, so we all know that their expenses after, after revenue and running an agency. But for the longest time, for several years, my goal was to break $1 million in annual revenue. And it was also my goal to publish a book and I kept missing it. And I missed it. In fact, two years in a row, I set a deadline that I think was actually realistic and I missed it. Now. It wasn't because of beer, but at the time I really enjoyed drinking beer. So I set a, it was more of like a reward for myself, like, all right, Jack, when you have your published book in hand, you can have a beer and until then no alcohol. So I thought that it would be a month or two or three. And at this time I had five employees and in one month, two of them quit, right. [22:25.3]
Jack: So suddenly my workload massively increased. I also have two kids who were both under two years old, they're 14 months apart. So it was a really challenging time for me personally. And by quitting drinking, I was able, I found that I was able to sleep better and wake up and get work done. And the book ended up taking me a whole year to complete from that point. And I, at once I reached that point, I felt so much better having not had any alcohol that I'd decided to keep going. And that was coming up on, I guess, four years ago that I, I quit drinking and we're coming up on three years of having the book published.
Jack: And so within that year we broke a million dollars in revenue. I finished the book and it, it was, it was really, it really propelled my career. [23:20.1]
Matt: That’s cool. I like that story. And it's you know, in this podcast, obviously we talking craft beer golf, and then I, I always like to interview people that, you know, have stopped drinking. And I think it's important because, not because I'm saying like everybody that listens to this podcast has a drinking issue and that's not what I'm going at, but I think people need to hear other sides of things a lot of times. You know, it's like if you feel that way and you're missing goals or you're missing other life events or things like that, and you might not feel like you have a problem, but it's just like one or two little things that can really propel you sometimes to like, make those changes. You know? And I think a lot of times when I talk to people that I classify as like big drinkers, what you find is they compartmentalize that time. [24:09.2]
So like, they might appear to be big drinkers, but they're actually like, Oh yeah, this is my one day a month where I have, you know, a few more beers and they're not like a consistent drinker. And it's really pulled back the curtain for me, the more and more I've worked in different industries to see how successful people that you're like, man, this guy seems like these party and all the time. And then you realize like, Oh, just so happens to be in these little pockets and I just happened to be there at the same time so it was like purposeful. And once you change that and you can definitely hit those goals. So I'm glad you're the guy that had the million. I was worried about that when you put it in the notes, I was like, Oh, is he going to talk about somebody else? Or is he the guy? [24:45.9]
Jack: Yeah, no, I'm the guy. And you know, for me, it, it was actually on Instagram that I found a company called No Beers Who Cares. So if you search, if you search the hashtag, no beers who cares around this time, somehow I found them and they had a three month challenge. And that was where I started. And it was like, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to try this, you know, for three months and see what happens. And cause I, I also thought that I would finish my book in that time. And then I had a business coach and he said, well, Jack, go for six months and see what happens then, because that's where you'll find out if you have a chemical dependence on it. And I, I swear, man, the six month was the hardest for some reason with me. And that's when I knew that it, you know, for me, unfortunately it was, it was a bad habit. [25:40.5]
Jack: I don't know that it was, ever nothing crazy ever happened. It was never anything like that. But I, it was definitely a daily habit. And for me, honestly, the sleep deprivation at the time of having no kids or having two kids was.
Jack: You know, not sleeping. Cause when you, when you drink alcohol, it takes an hour for your body to process each drink. So if I had two or three craft beers.
Jack: And then I was lucky to get, you know, three to five cumulative hours of sleep, it was like going to work on two hours of sleep was just brutal. So anyways, I love craft beer. And you know, if, if, if if you have ever thought about not drinking, try it for three months, see what happens.
Jack: And if you don't have a problem, cool. Not, not everyone does. [26:29.4]
Matt: Yeah. I used to take off three months every, every year. I still kind of do when you map, map it out. But three, four in a row used to do January, February and March. And then I would come back for St. Patrick’s Day and then they would stop in April for that month.
Matt: And then you know, I used to do that all the time and now it's just a little bit more spread out, but you always want to do that. And it's always interesting to talk to everybody because everybody has different things, good, bad or indifferent. So it's always, always fun. But just since we're in 2020, and as we wrap this thing up in terms of COVID and all that, how has that impact the landscapers and impact your business if at all? [27:10.6]
Jack: Well, last September, September, 2019, we, as a company went fully remote at Ramblin Jackson.
Jack: We had a really big, expensive office that no one was using and I started hiring employees, we have 10 employees around the country. And so we went fully remote a good six months before all of the shutdowns and things happened. So I kind of felt prepared to run a remote company.
Jack: And I feel fortunate that our client's businesses have stayed open. Like we still have some clients out there who are not in the landscape industry. And it was very chaotic, honestly, you know, between updating their hours, like simply updating store hours for people for, for like, you know, several months, it was kind of crazy. And it was different in every city, county, state of what was happening. So it was very chaotic. We worked very, you know, normally we have longer project timelines where there's, we're working hard every day, but there isn't quite as much urgency of like sudden fires to put out. [28:20.6]
Jack: So for us, it was, it was suddenly a lot of little digital fires to put out. And one of the things that we did was we help people put pop-ups on their website and create messaging around COVID and are they open or not? How are they handling it, making Google posts on their Google my business, making, you know, Facebook updates. So the whole team really rallied together to help our clients with this kind of all hands on deck, urgent work. And that lasted for like a solid six weeks. And, you know, sales definitely slowed down for us and they, they were impacted for a lot of our clients. And then what started to happen was travel, you know, basically ceased and people, homeowners started spending more money on landscaping than ever. [29:06.4]
Jack: There is, there's like a record. If you look at the Google trends for landscaping or garden centers or gardening, this spring was, I mean, normally spring is busy, but this spring was like almost 50% higher than a record in the last 10 years. So, so for, for many of our clients, their, their season has been delayed because people started buying again in the summer. So right now another thing that's happening is the weather is warm. A lot of our landscapers are still working. So it definitely impacted us, it slowed us down a little bit. But we were able to retain like 97% of our clients, which I feel really fortunate about because part of it was because we just worked like crazy to do whatever we could to help them. [29:53.3]
Jack: So it was, it was stressful. It was hard. I couldn't imagine having my business shut down. You know what I mean?
Jack: I, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine that.
Matt: I mean, I had to deal with a lot of it. You know, a lot of people that do listen to this that are in craft beer, know that full well. And a lot of people in golf too, are shutdowns, or in states you know so there's a lot of change and it's always interesting. There's always a little bit of ebb and flow, but we have some clients too that are in home improvement and they saw like just astronomical numbers where people who aren't taking vacations, that was like the main one that you heard, like, well, we're not doing a vacation this year, so we're gonna take the whatever multi thousand dollars they were going to spend and they put that all into some small home improvements and then some, you know, went full boat and got into some bigger things. [30:42.8]
So it's been interesting that side. As we wrap this up, thanks for the insight on the COVID. It's no fun, but that's purpose of talking to a lot of marketers that I brought onto the show. Just to give everybody a little bit of perspective and if you got to this far in the show, I mean, Jack's giving you some, some good information like local search, you know, it's key for craft breweries, tt's key for golf courses and golf instruction. Getting things out there in terms of pricing, you don't necessarily need to give everything away, but you want some guidelines so you have people that walk in your tack room or require about, you know, certain things that you might provide at your golf facility, that you have an idea that they know where they're coming from. You know, and last but not least is adjusting, you know, talking about pandemic and things that you have to do, putting popups on your website, making sure that things are still moving in the right direction even if you're, you know, things were slow, but at least they're moving in the right direction and people don't have a problem contacting you or finding information about your hours and things like that. So that's why I've been bringing everybody on during this time. And you know, we're finally at the end, Jack is the last one. We'll be doing marketing next year in 2021, but it'd be more as a series, not just kind of the main show. And we've got the beer and golf finally here at the very beginning of 2021. So with that, Jack tell everybody where they can find you and you know, online and what else you have going on, feel free to plug away. [32:04.3]
Jack: Yeah. So I'm on Instagram. You can follow me @Jackjostes. That's Jack J O S T E S. Find me there, send me a message. Say hi. And the book that I ended up writing is called Get FOUND Online: The Local Business Owner's Guide to Digital Marketing. And it is written in a way that if you run a golf course, I actually have a golf course example in there. I have some brewery examples, and you can actually get a copy of the book for free on my website. You just have to pay for shipping it's RamblinJackson.com/book. So that's RamblinJackson.com/book. and connect with me there. I wrote that book. I have all kinds of interviews and case studies with carpet cleaning companies, restaurants, you know, for, for years, I worked with a variety of different businesses. And I think one of the things that you can all do, that's free is ask all of your customers to leave online reviews, even if you're closed right now, if you can message people and you know, whether through your social media, for your email. Think what can you do to be best prepared for when things open back up again and being the best reviewed in your town, really for, I believe this for any industry is one of the best things you can do. So there's a whole chapter on reviews to check it out. RamblinJackson.com/book.. [33:31.7]
Matt: That's awesome, Jack. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Like I said, you’re the last marketing interview for 2020, so we always finish it out really well and go check out Jack's book. You know, there's a lot of good information that he just gave you today. So I really appreciate it Jack. Our next episode, rounding out the year we have 2020 craft brewery review and 2020 golf marketing review, as well as small business reviews, they're all be in December. And then you know, kind of wrap up this funky year for sure and hopefully for bigger, better brighter things in 2021. But if you got this far, thanks for listening. Jack, thanks for being on. And I'll see you on the next episode of Taps and Tees. Thanks everybody. [34:08.8]
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