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The world of marketing is full of smoke and mirrors. From phony industry awards to hyped-up marketing, it’s hard to tell the professionals from the scammers.

In this episode, marketing agency owner Jason Swenk discusses how to separate fact from fiction in agency marketing and why understanding marketing can save you time and money, especially when hiring someone else to do it for you.

Show highlights include:

  • Why flashy, materialistic marketing should make you immediately skeptical of a coach or agency (10:31)
  • A marketing mistake that repels the clients you most want to work with (11:19)
  • The insidious secret behind marketing awards and why they shouldn’t matter to you (11:45)
  • A simple trick to becoming the person that your ideal client can’t resist working with (15:19)
  • Why understanding the marketing process saves you from blowing all your cash when you hire an agency (20:27)

If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure you head on over to www.tapsandtees.info and download your free report of ‘No BS,’ game-changing marketing tips and strategies that show you how to blow up your brand online.

Read Full Transcript

You are listening to the Taps and Tees Show, weekly conversations for people passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino, an award-winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]

Marty: All right, everybody welcome back to another episode of Taps and Tees, and today you know, I keep saying I'm teasing all of these like interviews with fun craft beer people and golf people and trust me, they're common, but we get to talk to another marketer. And in full disclosure, I have to say this, I do hire this guy and he's made a very big impact on my business and I'll let him introduce himself, but the interesting part about this gentleman is that this on top of a mountain that he made for himself, which I think is cool. You know, he's just kind of cleaned his land now, he is like, I got my flag up here, I'm going to do whatever. Building bike tracks, chasing bears, fishing with his kids and having a good time. And the best part about it is like he doesn't put any fluff. And anybody that's listening to this, you know, you know, I don't, I do the same thing. I don't waste time with going after all these little tricks or things like that. He tells it like it is, and that's why I hired him and that's why I'm part of his mastermind groups. And that's why I like to interact with him. And he only lets cool people in, I mean he has got a couple other words for it, of how he keeps them out. And I'll let him describe that. But without further ado, I'm just going to let him introduce himself. Jason, are you there? And you ready to go? [01:29.8]

Jason: Hey, well thanks Marty. And I do drink beer and I do play golf.

Marty: That’s a bonus!

Jason: So we can talk about that too, but yeah. Thanks for having me on your, you've been always a awesome friend over the years. Yeah, I mean, so what I do is I, I work with agency owners all over the world and just provide a resource I wish I had and show them a couple systems to make their life a little easier, right. To create that freedom, to pick and choose the clients that they want or pick and choose what they actually want to do.

Marty: And that's kind of the key. So speaking of what you're doing, let's just talk about, you know, it's summer. So we're in August 19, 2020, quarantine and all this other stuff. So what are you been doing up on your, up on your mountain there? [02:10.8]

Jason: Well, summers I take off other than working in mastermind.

Marty: I know.

Jason: Hmm….So you know it's, it's been so nice building bike trails, naming wildlife you know, just hanging out with the family. You know, a lot of times people, you know, been treating kind of the quarantine as like, Oh, this is really, really bad, but like, we've been able to really get closer as a family and do all kinds of stuff together.

Marty: That’s awesome.

Jason: That we normally wouldn’t. You know, obviously we can't travel, but we can travel all outside and you know, we've been hiking mountains and you know, all kinds of fun stuff. And my wife, we call her kind of like the mama bear and we hiked one mountain and scare the death out of her. So I don't think mama bear will be coming with us anymore.

Marty: Yeah. I was just been training for Swank mountain climb for when we come out to Durango there.

Jason: Well, I’ve cleared it out more for you guys. [03:05.6]

Marty: Oh yeah, that's even better. I saw had it's kind of a side story, but I did like on my finger, I grabbed one of the bushes on the way down and got it splintered. And it was so deep, it took like a week or so to actually push out and I can still feel a little like slash scar on it. So I just always reminds me, it's kind of funny. I was just thinking about that and I'm like, yeah, I'm glad you actually cleared that out because that's safer. So tell me Jason a little bit and tell everybody else a little bit about how you got started in marketing and that quick story and then what led you to doing what you do today?

Jason: Yeah, well originally I went to school for marketing and I took a marketing internship and all they had me doing. I don't think I've ever told anybody this. So this is an exclusive, I guess, for the one person that knows me. So they had me licking stamps or licking envelopes and putting stamps. [03:58.3]

Marty: Really!

Jason: And just sending it out. It was like a direct mail agency. And I thought this was the dumbest thing. Like I was like, cause I was emailing my friends. Now this was like in 97 or 96 and I'm like, dude, why don't we just like build this email marketing system and we just mail it out. And so I went to the president cause I was tired of licking freaking stamps and I was like, look, you can save $200,000 a year by doing this. And she was like, yeah, well let's, let's do it. And then she told me, she was like, you should go into computers, not marketing.

Marty: Right.

Jason: And so I got a computer degree and I was a horrible programmer. I outsourced everything in college. So I got a job with Arthur Anderson as a computer programmer and I worked for them for about six months. But at the time one of my friends looked like Justin Timberlake from NSYNC.

Marty: All right. [04:53.4]

Jason: So I created my first website called N SHIT, making fun of NSYNC and it featured me and him and two of our other best friends and it got popular. And then people start asking me to design websites. And so that's how I got into marketing was by accident. And you got to think, like this is 99.

Marty: Right.

Jason: So no one had websites. And so like I did one for, I think the first one was for Charlie Commander, a realtor. He asked me, and then I did one for Syfrett & Dykes for the lawyers and some golf courses sometimes. It was crazy and that's how I got my start and grew an agency.

Marty: Nice.

Jason: Up big and sold it. [05:30.8]

Marty: Nice. And I think I'm interesting part about it and you know, everybody that's listening to this, especially if you're in beer and golf, which the bulk of you are that goes out, this goes out to, the funniest thing is, is you hear about, Oh, you must be good with computers and you know, dating ourselves when I, in the nineties, like I realized I was in the earliest forms of digital marketing and people thought I was really interested in programming, right. So it's interesting that you bring that up. I couldn't program a thing and I struggled to build any website. I mean, I got better at it as tools got better, but also early on in my career and like, I muddled my way through my first couple of clients doing it on the side. And what's interesting is though during that timeframe, people did think just like that, like, Oh, you're into that and I'm like, no, I'm not really into that. You know, Yahoo and AOL, how they're set up. And like you see the ads and like my brain was working that way early on. And there was no category right. [06:28.4]

There, there was very little in terms of digital, IE the web and most of those people are looked at as like, like definitely pioneers, but like, I don't even know how you would describe those is not normal, you know, which is fine. Cause I'm not normal, right. But it's funny that you mentioned that like, Oh, you must be getting into programming. No, no, not really.

Jason: Yeah. It's not, like I always would have, since we designed websites for many, many years, I'd always have my family and friends be like, can you fix my computer?

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: I'm like, No, I don't even know. I don't know how.

Marty: Yeah. I used to get that all the time. So in terms of that, like just in your business life, you know, what are you, what are you working on or what are you thinking about because you take the summer off. What are you thinking about right now? Like what are you working on? What's getting you going Business-wise? [07:12.9]

Jason: Yeah. When we take off in the summer, it allows me to recharge. I mean, my brain never stops right. For, you know, like our whole goal and the reason why we do everything is just to create a resource I wish I had. Because I remember how alone and isolating and like.

Marty: Right.

Jason: I've talked to people in my local market and they'd be like, I'm doing fantastic. And I'd be like, why do I suck so much?

Marty: Yeah, right.

Jason: Like they always tell me the good stuff. And I just wanted to create something that, you know, and just empathize with people going through. Cause it's not all sunshine and rainbows, no matter how people portray on the internet, like with their fancy cars and.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Jason: All that stuff and. And marketing is hard, running a business is hard. You know, so what I do in this summer is I'm always thinking like, what other things can I do? And like, and I, I'm not in the business in the summer. So I can think on the business.

Marty: Right.

Jason: I can think about what we have planned and what other things that we can actually do. Like one of the things that we've been doing is, you know, and I think, you know, a little bit about this is like we started a, another agency that just buys agencies. [08:19.6]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Jason: And really focusing on that. But the main focus is always around the mastermind, cause that's, that's always the fun part.

Marty: No, that's cool. It was like, and then, you know, I mean, we are in 2020, which is the year of weird for a variety of reasons and people's brains are going into different directions, you know, and it's kind of how I started just interviewing more and more people that were in marketing and not just focusing on beer and golf because everybody needs a little bit more perspective and different perspective, you know? And I think when you challenge yourself to go out and listen to people that aren't in areas that you are, you know, whether it's listening to somebody in the financial world or somebody outside of whatever you do, it helps because people don't know. I mean, I have a lot of friends in the craft brewery industry, as well as, you know, restaurants and things like that, as well as clients and some of them that they're in bad shape, like, and it's not only financial, it's mental and everything else. [09:18.8]

And keeping things just talking I think is important right now. And that's kind of how this little thing got started as an aside to this podcast, but let's go back to the marketing. I think I know one of the main things that drew me to you, I was looking for a contract and told you the story and I really need it really fast. And I just literally searched like agency contract. And then I was like, Oh, this dude and I'm like, Oh, I can download it, forget what it was 200 bucks or whatever. I'm like, perfect. I don't really care click. And I was like, I got done going through it and then got the contracts sent over here, whoever I need to legal wise and accounting lines and say, Hey, will this work, we can edit it. And then I went back and I was like, wait a second that was a very non hypee sales funnel. And I'm like, so I'm like, huh, let me go back. And then I saw, I forget I guess it was the, you know, the Academy or whatever it was called. So then, I bought that and then I think you launched the mastermind, like not too long after that, or sometime around that timeframe. [10:16.3]

And you mentioned like the flashy cars and the one reason I started doing this short podcast is that, you know, people need to understand when they hire an agency that you don't want to look for that flashiness cause people do in this business always say, Hey, it's great. Everything's good. Everything's great. Everything's good. And what I found is it's just like every other business, whether there's a smaller percentage that are doing really well, and then there's a bigger swath that, or they're doing good and then they're good professionals, but they're muddling the way through just like you are, you know, not you Jason, but you, the listener muddling through their own marketing and muddling through all that, you know, and I've been doing this for a long time. So what do you dislike about the marketing that's out there right now? And one of the big things that you're putting out there to change it. I mean, I know you do a lot of content and then you work with agency owners, but what were the things that you see that people just need to stop. [11:16.4]

Jason: Focusing on themselves.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: That's the number one. That's the biggest shift you need to think about, right. And think about like what agencies do, right? Like that's my world, right? They always, especially if you're selecting agency, they're always talking about how good they are, how many awards they've won, which is all BS. Right. It doesn't matter. It just matters like, Oh, you know, people on the board that selected you or are you paid enough as a sponsorship?

Marty: Yeah

Jason: That's the game of that.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Jason: And all they talk about is like, Oh, check out all this work and check out my foosball tables and all that. And like we had foosballs tables and like, but we never told anybody about it because it didn't matter, right. But what people need to do is focus on the end consumer, like who you're going after? Who's your audience, right? If you're in the golf industry or the brewing industry, think about like, how can I connect people in a time that everybody's disconnected, right? Like how can I focus on them? [12:17.6]

Right. Like even if you go to my About page, like, and obviously your audience is not my audience, so I'm not just trying to sell anybody anything. So go to jasonswenkt.com/about, and what you'll see is I don't tell you anything about my story or how cool I am, which, or how dorky I am or whatever, like, right. That's all at the very bottom. I start off with a question. I said, Hey, do you struggle with generating leads? Do you struggle with doing the stuff you don't want to do anymore? Well, you might be in the right place, right. And I never say with certainty that I'm trying to relate to them and put the attention on them. And the easiest way to put the attention on them is by starting off, by asking you a question, I always use this analogy picture we're at a conference and COVID is over. [13:03.7]

Marty: Oh thank god.

Jason: I mean, we can go up to people and I'm going to portray the bad guy in the first. Imagine I come up to you, Marty and I go, Hey, Marty. My name is Jason. I am the best in the world at this, and let me tell you why I'm the best of the world, because I've won all these awards and you know, you're literally going to be like, you're going to be shot, getting some beers, like really quick, right to get away from me. Versus if I came up to him like, Hey Marty, what's going on, man? Where are you from? You know, why did you come to the conference? Tell me a little bit more about yourself. I'm making all the attention on you, which you're going to like, and that's what I want people to do in their marketing focus on the end user of this long story, but focus on the end user and your marketing will work so much better. [13:48.8]

Marty: Yeah, no, that's so true. And it's, I know that person coming up to you and me at events and I, I liked it back to like 10 years ago when we started back riding home and social media was just kind of taking off, right. And in a bigger way, like just the paid part was coming into play and everybody would walk around with their selfie sticks, trying to interview people all the time. But they would always talk about themselves right. Before they would say, Oh, and this is Jason and the content that would cut across that would be somebody coming up in like, Hey, it's Marty here. And I just met this guy, Jason here, and he just got off stage and you know what he's doing great. I'm just going to let him talk. And I just want to share his message with you to my audience because I thought it was awesome. And that cut across everything because it then said, well, this isn't about me standing here in San Diego or wherever we are, this is about this guy and what he was doing. And that works for a time, but it's that same premise. And people forget about that. I think in a lot of ways, I think businesses forget about it. [14:53.0]

And I think when you're looking for an agency, the one of the bigger things I've learned, not only from Jason, but from doing this for so long is if I can sit down with you for an hour and just talk to you about your business, I will be a better vendor partner, you know, whatever relationship you want to name it to you and your business. If I can understand where you're trying to go. And so many people get caught up with; I just need to make sales. I need more traffic. I need this. I need leads. I need that. That they forget about everything else that goes into it. And that's why your consumer or your customer or your clients coming to you for help. And it's really interesting is that when you break that down and that's what we do is if you're not willing to do that with me or anybody of our team here at Bad Rhino, you're not going to be a fit because we already know where this is going to go. And that's again, putting your, you know, those things in front of your customers in front before, and then your marketing will follow. And guess what works a hell of a lot better than just talking about you. You, you are your product, product, product, that's for sure. [15:56.3]

Jason: Yeah I mean that separates you guys and that's why you've been guys been doing so well because you asked the questions, right? You don't just, if someone says, Hey, I need a website.

Marty: Right.

Jason: Or I need to rank better. I need more social media to make me look bigger. Right? The people that just go, okay, we can do X, Y, and Z. And you just go into it versus asking questions. And then once you understand, and that agency asks you all the questions, what you need to do is you need to understand that process.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: Like what, what is that process? What's the plan in order for you to get from point A to point B.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: And if you understand that process, right, then it's probably going to go well, because you know, like you were saying, I built our house maybe two years ago, this is the first time I've ever built the house and I knew nothing about it, right. And so when we're picking builders, right, I would tell the builder, I'm like, here's our budget and every single builder was like, yeah, we can do it. Except one builder was like, you're freaking crazy you've got to double your budget and we can do it. And I'm like, went back to the boss. It's like, can we double our budget? And so we went with them. And then

Marty: Yeah. [17:10.9]

Jason: They walked us and I understood the process of everything that we're going to do. Everyone else was like, yeah, we'll go do it. And I guarantee you, everyone else would have come way over. Like our house budget was only 1% over, which is unheard of.

Marty: Hmm...hmm.

Jason: And that's because of us picking different things because of my wife picking out different things.

Marty: Right. [17:31.3]

Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsAndTees.info and get our free report with game-changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan. [17:44.9]

Marty: See in that, I use that analogy, not yours because I remember following that, because I remember following that you know on social media, when you were doing that. And you're like, Oh, okay, so apparently you can't do this before we do this. All right. Well, the next update will be in a week or so. And then next update was like, well, so remember how I said, you had to do this before you do that. Well then apparently you have to do this, this, this, this, it was funny because it was like an educational thing Hmmm on building a house like that, but then the beauty of it is you can, then you applied it to like the marketing side and helping agency owners. And I actually used that; I used to use it before that all the time. It was like you got to start with the foundation and when somebody comes to us and they say, well, how much is this going to cost? And I go, I have no idea. [18:33.3]

And they're like, well, what do you mean by you have no idea. I'm like; I haven't even learned one thing about what you want to do. I'm like, there's certain things I have to go into this. And they're like, Oh, okay. And I'm like, I already know it won't be a fit, but then others as you talk and you just, you keep going, you pull that out, like you, with the builder, you learn things along the way. And then you can go, you know what? You probably don't want to do what you're thinking you want to do. Let's back up one step. Let's spend a little bit more money and time here. It's going to take a touch longer. But once it clicks, no pun intended, you're going to have a better trajectory. And then we can track it more, which then means we can scale it faster, once it does start to take off. And the best clients we've had that we've had for years would go, Oh yeah, you know what? That makes sense! And it's really interesting and it's great when you're building that house. Cause you can just create content all day about, you know, Oh, I messed this up because I didn't think of this. And I didn't go with the cheapest one because of this. And guess what? We actually came in on budget because I guarantee the folks that went with the cheaper one wound up coming in 150% over budget and they wound up paying the same price or more than what you did, kind of like do all the upfront work. And it's a really good one for marketing. [19:45.7]

Jason: Yeah. I would have spent probably a lot more or right around, but I would have probably spent a lot more time. And that's what people don't calculate, right?

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: Like when people go to an agency a lot of times and they check, they choose the cheaper one or like when they would look at when, when I was an agency, they'd be like, well, someone's like gonna charge like 50% or a 100% less than you, like perfect. Go with them. But here.

Marty: Exactly.

Jason: You don't value your time, because you're going to spend more as the general contractor managing them.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Jason: And learning it. And that's why it's so important to understand the process of what people are doing, because they've done it for 20 years or.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: You know, 15, 10 years, five years, whatever it is, they have all that experience. And a lot of people don't market that. And that's what makes the biggest difference. Like time and money. Like if I had to say one, like it always be time. [20:41.7]

Marty: Yeah, for sure. For sure. You can always make more money, that's kind of what I say. Time's a little hard to make. So moving like in, into a couple of different areas here, just during this whole coronavirus thing, since we're in August, August 4th or something like that today, you know, how does that impact, you know, you went through a whole move and everything too. Like how has it impacted business for you and then just personal life a little bit. I know you mentioned the positives and then with that, like how do you see it impacting just businesses in general right now? And I don't need like a long answer. Just

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: Give us a few thoughts around that. [21:19.7]

Jason: Well, I think like with everybody, you know, it's emotional roller coaster, right? Like.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: I like uncertainty because I'm an entrepreneur, right. And like, I like taking risk, but certain things I don't like uncertainty, right. Like, and like being isolated, like I'm an introvert, but I have a lot of close friends and a lot of people I really love, that I can't see, right. Like I had to postpone our event.

Marty: Right.

Jason: Like that crushed me, right.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: Like, so like I need that connection. And I think a lot of people are that way. You know, right now, you know, with business, maybe I think it was in more, when did all this happen? Like in March?

Marty: March, yeah mid-March, that was like really..

Jason: So April was like a second, worst month ever. Just cause everybody was so uncertain, no one knew what was going on, but then May and June and July way back up there, right?

Marty: Yup. [22:12.3]

Jason: And it's like, people were freaking out, but it's some businesses have to adapt. Like you were mentioning like craft brewers, right. And like golf courses. And like you just have to adapt and be like, what can I do? Right.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: Like there's a lot of craft brewers in Durango where I'm at in Colorado. And what they'll do is they'll set up tents outside, right.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: So they're not inside and that kind of stuff and same thing with some bars and that kind of stuff. And just to get by, and you've just gotta be restful. It's like, there's always an answer out there for us to do. And you have to look at it as, you know yeah, this all sucks. But everybody's going through it.

Marty: Sure.

Jason: Which is the silver lining, right? Like there's, there's no one immune to it. And you know, it's the ones that get resourceful and look at it as, I don't want to say like an opportunity, but really is an opportunity to, you know, kind of get to the next stage of wherever, wherever you're going. But you know, I I'll go in, I'll go in different funks though like, and I try to stay away from the news as much as possible, but sometimes it, it hooks me in, right. Like I want to watch the train wreck [23:26.3]

Marty: That’s good marketing.

Jason: It's just like.

Marty: It is.

Jason: I can't look away. I'm like, and then, then you're depressed for a day or two. And then you're like, okay, let me get over it.

Marty: Yeah. You know, I went out to San Diego on March 8th and 9th and it was like a quick trip. Like these gentlemen called me about a month before and then two weeks before they said, Hey, can you come out here? We're throwing this event together. And we did all the recording, all this stuff. And I was there. I flew all the way across the country for essentially 36 hours. And I worked probably about 20 of us now, probably more than that close to like 24 to 36 over two days. I did it, I did all those things to go out to all these brewers. And I was so excited because all the work I've done in craft beer, and I was like, it's finally gonna pay off. And it's still going to, it's just going to be a delay right now. And not that it wasn't before, but this was like a big project, big, big project. [24:26.8]

I was so excited for it. And I called my dad the week before and I told him, and he's in Florida and then a week and a half later I'm calling him going, what the hell? Like what's going on? And he said the same thing he's been saying to me since he was, since I can remember, he was like, well, you just got to figure it out. And that's it like no crying, no nothing like figure it out. He's like, that's all you gotta do is like, just got to figure it out. Like, what are you going to do? And I've been like, keeping that, like, I always have that mantra, but I've always kind of kept it out. Like if there's something wrong, just gotta figure it out. Just figure it out, you know? And you know, works out. You just stay positive. So I appreciate the insight there. Cause I think a lot of people need to hear that they're all in the same boat a little bit without hearing a cliché, we're all in this together. I think they just need to hear it in real words. So before we get to the fun, last few questions here, what's the best place you've ever traveled to? [25:15.9]

Jason: Durango, Colorado.

Marty: That was too easy, now you live there.

Jason: Yeah I know.

Marty: But that makes sense.

Jason: Yeah. We came here once and fell in love with it and never wanted to leave.

Marty: Cool. What was one aspect of living all by yourself with bears on the top of the mountain that you're like, other than that one, which is a big one. What did you love about it?

Jason: So I love an adventure. There's always something to explore, right?

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Jason: Like it's just, you never know what you're going to see. You never know what you're going to find. I found a seashell on top of the mountain.

Marty: I saw that the other day on Instagram.

Jason: Yeah. I'm like, Wow, this seashells very old. Yep.

Marty: No, that's cool. So beer wise and I ask everybody that comes on here. Umm…one I know you do drink beer. Do you have a favorite beer?

Jason: I like SweetWater.

Marty: Nice. Yeah.

Jason: It’s an Atlanta brewery.

Marty: One of my favorites too,

Jason: And I like their 420. [26:16.2]

Marty: Yup.

Jason: And I like their. It's like a blueberry. Don’t make fun of me guys.

Marty: No its fine. I can, I think a lot of people in the way fruit beers have come out, I think it's fascinating that people do say those things, right. But they've evolved because at the beginning it was, and this is going back years to any fruit beer that was out there was like sweet, super, super sweet. And I had too much sugar or whatever makes it super sweet, which I I'm assuming sugar and give you a headache if you drank it. Now a lot of those beers have become more and more refined and craft, which I same way. Like I used to be like I don’t really like a blueberry, but I'll try them now. And what you notice is like the freshness of it and the actual using fruit, not just over sugaring, something with some fake, a lemon or whatever fruit flavor you have in there makes a huge difference. So no, one's going to make fun of you Jason, that's all good. You can like what you like. [27:12.7]

Jason: What! So does anybody ever be like naturalite? Like anybody ever say that?

Marty: Uhh…People say it as jokes, you know, and it's funny cause I'm like fine with that. Like I like having a conversation, a little conversation and kind of close these things out and I'm waiting for somebody to throw out a beer or at least a brewery that I haven't had. And I don't know whether this is a good thing or bad because I'm like, Oh yeah, I had those. And then like, I've had those and we're going, I've got a lot of these ready to go in the can so to speak. And I'm like, I still haven't had similar beer that I haven't had, which I know is a good thing or a bad thing. But SweetWater's awesome. I remember the first time I actually had that beer was down in Carolina and it wasn't in PA and I was like, what is this? And I got it. And like, this is a perfect parallel, like just to drink, you know? And then all of a sudden it was all over the place. I can't remember what year, I think it was back in like 2012 or somewhere around there. And it was all over the place up here. So as far as that, like I'm golfing wise, I know you're setting up a mini course on the mountain, which I'm interested to see when I come out there in the fall. [28:18.9]

Jason: You might be disappointed. I mean, literally you can hit off and then.

Marty: That’s fine.

Jason: And then you can hit to one flag. So

Marty: I'm going to try and find, I think I have a picture of it. My grandfather had, my grandparents had a house up in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania and off this driveway, it was covered in AstroTurf or whatever my grandfather put on it. And it was a tee box and used to hit the wiffle balls off of it, right. That's where I learned to play golf. So when you said that you were doing that, I was like, Oh man, this is awesome. So like as far as impressed, I already know the view. So as long as I can just hit a ball, I'm like, I don't care. So that's how he had set it up. So when I saw that, I was like, that's pretty cool. You know, that's where me and my brother used to just sit there and we'd hit golf balls. And one time we hit a real golf ball and thankfully actually went straight not through the windows of the house. [29:06.7]

Jason: Well…I, I, you know, I was when we finished the tee box yesterday, cause it was just wood and then it had a floor mat on it. Cause believe it or not, like, I guess during the pandemic, everyone wants AstroTurf.

Marty: No.

Jason: Like I go to home Depot, I couldn't find it. Like it's taken me two months to find AstroTurf to put on this damn tee box.

Marty: Huh.

Jason: But hitting a golf ball off a mountain, it looks like a happy Gilmore shot.

Marty: Yeah I know.

Jason: Like it goes on forever.

Marty: That's why you need to do it.

Jason: It is the coolest things.

Marty: It can’t get better than Joe. That's my goal.

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: It is awesome with that view. I can imagine like how far those things go, number one, but then also what it looks like too.

Jason: Yeah. So it's a, it's fun. I can't wait to have you try it out. But yeah,

Marty: That's cool. Do you, do you play a lot of golf or have you in the past? [29:59.3]

Jason: When, when I was growing up, so I grew up in Panama city, Florida, and so we had two golf courses and so we'd always play all the time. And even when I lived in, in Delaware, we're kind of right, right by you guys.

Marty: Yeah, not fat at all.

Jason: Really all the time. I used to win a lot of the little, little kids championships.

Marty: Okay.

Jason: And then I got kind of burned out. Like, I'm the type of golfer that I'll play nine holes, and then I'm completely bored.

Marty: Gotcha.

Jason: And then I'll start doing happy Gilmore shots. Like I'll just, and I can crank it. Like I can run up to the ball and smack the crap out of it. But yeah, like the best I've ever shot, like, cause I'll play like once a year is like a 79.

Marty: Nice.

Jason: And that was on two hole, No I'm just kidding there was only two. But I'm usually shooting around the eighties and but yeah I haven't played in a long time, but I can tell you, like, I, I video my swing to some of my friends out here and they're like, who are you? Like, it's such a smooth swing now. [31:00.6]

Marty: Hmm.

Jason: Because I don't care.

Marty: Yeah. You know what I found when I, I never really had a big break from golf since I've been playing since I was 12, but in college I didn't play as much. So I had to work and college and I didn't get out very often at all. And I remember I had probably about almost 18 months off and I remember going out right when I got my first job, like how, like one of those things, like, I can't wait to start playing golf on a Saturday or Sunday or whatever. And I went out and I had like the smoothest swing cause I forgot all the other mistakes and everything else that were in there. And I should have just went that day right after it and just went to an instructor and just been like, okay, what am I doing right here? Let's keep it going. And I just remember it was so easy and effortless and it wasn't that I didn't care. It's like, what you find is when you have like that break from all the stuff and all the practice, like you said, you were getting burnout as a kid. I find that pretty, pretty common when I talk to people and they're like, yeah, I just went out and I was like, crushing the ball. And I was hitting really easy and everything came good except for my putting. But other than that, like I could swing and I'm like, I think it's just because you forget all. [32:12.5]

Jason: Yeah. It’s, well everything is mental right?

Marty: And it's all the stuff that goes in.

Jason: Like it's just a.

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: We're over thinking it, you know, I, I grew up also playing tennis; I guess I was a country club brat. Right. Tennis and golf, but I was really good at tennis. I went to college for it. And I remember one time I was losing and I do this with everything. I was just trying to overthink it. I was like, this one guy I was playing was inferior to the level I was at, but he was beating me. I remember the coach was like, go back to the basics, just take the ball.

Marty: Right.

Jason: Take the racket back, look at the ball and hit it. And that's what I do now in golf or really anything it's just like set up to it, address it, go hi, Mr. Bob and knock the shit out of you and hit it off the mountain and it works. [32:59.4]

Marty: Yeah. You can always say it to the Lake, right?

Jason: Yeah, that's a long way. I need, happy Gilmore to come out for that one, so.

Marty: Yeah, you'd have to crush it, but it looks like it's right there, which is awesome.

Jason: Sure.

Marty: Jason, thank you so much for coming on, where can people find out more about you?

Jason: Yeah, just go to jasonswenk.com. S W E N K is how you spell the last name. I'm not related to Hillary. Maybe, maybe in a long, long, long generation life ago, but maybe, but yeah, just go to jasonswenk.com and say, hello.

Marty: Cool. Well, I appreciate you coming on. And yeah, everybody, like I said, like I'm bringing people on that I know. And we're going to get back to some fun and everybody that I interviewed, probably listening to this going, Oh, why is, you know why we got all these other episodes coming out? It's just the time and the place I thought this was a little bit more important. We're going to push out all the fun golf and beer stuff at the same time. I appreciate you listening and we'll see you on the next one. I got one other person I’m going to interview from a marketing standpoint. They already come from right into the golf. Somebody that's been doing digital marketing in the golf world for over 30 years, if you can believe it. So, I'll see you on the next episode. Thanks Jason.

Jason: All right. Thanks for having me. [34:06.8]

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