Have a podcast in 30 days

Without headaches or hassles

When you’re on top of the search results, SEO is fun. Google sends you free traffic without lifting a finger. But if you’re on page 7 of Google, most people never hear about you. And when you’re not seeing results, it’s hard to justify spending money, time and effort on improving your SEO.

But SEO doesn’t have to be a bad experience. In this episode, Chris Dreyer from Rankings.io stops by to show you exactly how you can make SEO work without spending a fortune.

Ready to get more traffic without all the effort? Listen now!

Show highlights include: 

  • How Google can cut your income by 87% overnight—and what you can learn from it. (4:11)
  • The problem with quick fixes (even if they work). (5:20)
  • How to get free “virtual real estate” that gets people to line up for your tap room. (8:08)
  • 3 things that can put you on top of Google Maps’ searches. (9:09)
  • Do you need a blog to rank high in SEO? (11:20)
  • The overlooked weakness of social media marketing—and how to shield yourself from it. (13:28)
  • Why recessions are the perfect time to market more. (18:34)
  • How Google reviews can ravage or skyrocket your business (and how to optimize them by writing a few words). (23:40)
  • How golf courses can convert casual golfers into die-hard fans without doing more marketing. (29:39)

If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure you head on over to www.tapsandtees.info and download your free report of ‘No BS,’ game-changing marketing tips and strategies that show you how to blow up your brand online.

Read Full Transcript

You are listening to the Taps and Tee show weekly conversations for people, passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino an award winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]

Marty: Hey, everybody welcome to another episode of Taps and Tees, this is Marty McDonald and continuing on with our theme here for marketing interviews I'm bringing on another, you know, we'll call them wise guys. I don't know. I've been like fussing around with these intros like what do I call everybody and do all that, but this guy that I'm bringing on here, I've gotten to know over the past couple of years, we're in some masterminds together and if you haven't noticed, that's been a common theme of what I've been talking about is a lot of these people I've known for years or I brought in through mastermind groups that I'm in and it's key. You need to network, you need to be out there no matter what business you're in. And Chris is one of those guys that when you start talking to him, he has all these great ideas. [01:01.9]

Every time I talked to him, whether in person or on the phone or via zoom or in a mastermind group, it's like he gets rolling and it's just like, all right dude, sometimes I want to say I got enough from you and I need you to stop. But it's all good stuff. And Chris is the founder of and president of rankings.io and he specializes in personal injury lawyer SEO. Now I know what does that have to do with craft beer and golf? Well, there's quite a few things and Chris has made the Inc. 5000 to the fastest growing private companies and he's pretty sure he's going to be included again in 2020 and the best thing about Chris is he just kind of gives it to you straight. You know, the good, the bad and the ugly. And a lot of the times in SEO you get the run around right? And you don't want to do that. And if you're sitting there as a craft brewery owner and you're looking to get more traffic and you're looking to do certain things or your golf course that you're looking to get more traffic via SEO, this is important. And without further ado, I'll let Chris expand some more. So, Chris, are you there? [02:01.1]

Chris: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me on Marty. So yeah, just CEO and founder of rankings.io, a personal injury law firm, SEO agency, I think I'll say is I've been doing SEO for 14 years in every industry. I did affiliate marketing, I've done affiliate marketing for the golf niche. And so I'm very familiar with just the different aspects of, of the landscape and marketing in general. [02:25.3]

Marty: Yeah. And that's why I wanted to have you on, tell me how you started, you know, in SEO and then how you started your own agency.

Chris: Yeah, it's kind of a funny story. So I got a history education degree, I got hired as a detention room teacher, which was the person that had to manage the alternative classroom and the kids that had to stay after school. And it's just awful. Right? So I had the worst, the worst students and there was only so much surfing the net and looking at ESPN that I could do.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: So I read the worst thing ever. I typed in how to make money online.

Marty: Uhh….ohhh.

Chris: And once I got past all the surveys and things that people wanted to pay me to fill out, I found a course called Ed Dale's 30 day challenge to Digital Marketing. I took that course and I think I made like 20 bucks at the end of it. But by the end of my second year at this high school I was making more than the teachers were as this little side gig doing affiliate marketing. So I decided …. [03:30.1]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: To pursue it full time. That's where I got into affiliate marketing and then consulting and then founding my own business.

Marty: Sounds familiar. Very similar story. I think that's why a lot of things when we chat, I kind of goes off tangent cause I just remember doing a lot of the same things on the side. So how did it become like your agency and you kind of your full time type of deal? I mean obviously the money, but there's a lot of things that go in and you've had some great growth over the years.

Chris: At center I thought that I was going to be an affiliate guy forever. I had this cake job where I had couple of subcontractors and I didn't have to do a lot, probably the worst time ever being younger, partying a lot and doing that kind of thing. But around 2011 that first ping one algorithm fit and that really checked all of us SEO specialists. [04:18.1]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: Who aren't doing everything by the book. You know, utilizing those evergreen strategies. So my income went from let's say $15,000 a month to two thousand dollars a month, almost overnight. So kind of freaked me out a little bit. And I went and got a job because I was carrying a lot of expenses, debt and vehicles. And so I went and got a job for a digital agency unite. I rose to the top, either lead SEO. What I found them was how they were running their business was definitely not how I run it. And I saw a lot of things that they I just didn't agree upon and ultimately decided to start my own agency. I kind of learned from 2011 what not to do for those short term strategies and to look more an evergreen long-term the strategy. [05:09.1]

Marty: Right. So I think one of the things that Chris just mentioned there, if you're, you know a lot of times SEO when you go out and you look for somebody to do it for you or analyze everything, they look for quick fixes and there's nothing wrong with that. Like in theory, and they're important to get those quick fixes up and running and you can rank faster, but you really need to have a long-term strategy built in there. And SEO is a long game and that's one of the big things that you see in this industry. When people talk about SEO and they're like, well, I want to do SEO, not pay per click, that's fine. Then pay-per-click can start it right out of the gate where you start to see more traffic quickly. SEO is a longer play, but if you only go for the quick fix, odds are things are going probably fall apart. So Chris, when you started your own thing, how did you get into just focusing in on lawyers? [06:03.3]

Chris: So the other digital agency that I worked at, they, they worked with attorneys but they were full service and they were most mostly a web design agency. They had a small book of business for SEO. They were, they were working in all different industries and I just, I really understood that market. And at first I was intimidated to talk to lawyers, but the more that I spoke with them and they're just like you and I, you know. Some of them are, are great, some of them are assholes and just you get the mix. But what I saw was there was a ton of opportunity because when it comes to SEO, the more competition there is, the more demand there is for marketing services to stand out. And you really need those experts. So I knew that lawyers have been around forever and people are always going to be hurt and injured. So I knew that that it was a, a longer term play that it would probably be around in the future. [06:59.0]

Marty: Gotcha. No, that makes sense. And in working with lawyers, like when an attorney calls and they say this is what I want, like what is it that they want? I mean obviously it'd be ranked number one, but is there any other details within there that they're looking for to drive sales?

Chris: So most attorneys, it depends. So if it's a solo practitioner, maybe they're trying to really get their foot in the door with some direct response marketing and do that pay per click and really get some traffic immediately cause they really need the lead gen. Or if it's mid, mid to upper market, those individuals have been doing TV and billboards and have a lot of brands. So there's looking to diversify there and channel to, to a different source. So it really depends. But I would say most of the people that we work with have decent brands from TV and billboards and they're looking to rank on Google and the top three spots in the maps or or in the organic results because the pay per click, it's so expensive and you're essentially leasing visibility. [08:04.5]

Marty: Right.

Chris: They're looking for that evergreen type of placement.

Marty: Yup, and then you mentioned the one thing on the maps, which is relevant for, you know, golf and beer. You know, when you start to like show that out there, you know, and explain it to them, like what's the fastest way you can on maps.

Chris: It's the best virtual real estate there is— low paid ads, it's the absolute best placement. It also, you can show up with the stars for social proof and it's just the best positioning for SEO in general.

Marty: Yup. So a lot of craft brewers create a ton of content and they put it out on Instagram and Facebook for social content, which is all well and good.

Chris: Hmm…hmm.

Marty: But many times that content gets lost in the shuffle because it only goes to Instagram, et cetera. What advice would you give to a craft brewer to take that content and repurpose it for SEO? Same thing for golf. I mean it's one in the same I think. [09:04.9]

Chris: Yeah, so for a, for a strategy to rank in the maps, you could start there. It comes down to relevance, distance and prominence. So for relevance, all the content that you're producing on your site that builds relevance, that helps Google understand what your site is about for the consumer. The other thing that people don't talk about a lot as your are your reviews mean the individuals are commenting on your listing, I'm talking about the types of beer they drink or well, the whole on a certain golf course. You're just building all of this types of relevancy around your topic and it's essentially content that your customers are writing for you. The number one thing I would say is really be intentional about acquiring reviews to your Google my business pages. [09:56.9]

The second thing, proximity is just a no brainer. Yeah, if I was going to give an example for, let's say you went on vacation and you typed in best restaurants in St. Louis, you're not going to see restaurants in Chicago. See, you have to have, the brewery or the golf course in the location you're trying to rank for, that's a requirement of maps. The third component is prominence and that's where those social posts and everything that you're doing really contribute to your SEO and your Google maps, so you just prominence it. The word itself just means being everywhere. Do you want to take that content and curated to all different types of locations? Facebook, Instagram, on your website, on its blog and just put it everywhere to really recognize so that Google can recognize you are everywhere you are trustworthy and that's the main strategy I would say is utilize that content that you're creating on Instagram and Facebook in multiple locations. Even on your, your Yelp page and your Google my business page, those images, all of it can be utilized to help your SEO strategy too. [11:01.0]

Marty: Yeah, I know that's important and I think the follow up question to that that I get most often going to a craft brewery, potential client or current client or even, you know, same thing on the golf side is do I need a blog? And my default answer is as long as you have content that you want to put out there or we can devise that. Just real quick, you know, as far as you know, that thought, is it important to have all that content on your website?

Chris: That's a tough question.

Marty: So, yeah, I know, That's why I'm asking you.

Chris: I would say.

Marty: Because I get it all the time. So I'm hopefully going to use this podcast and this answer and you know, to kind of up my game. [11:48.02]

Chris: I would say it isn't necessarily a requirement. It is content, the sole purpose of content is to give information to your community and where are your individuals congregate and hang out. If you built a huge audience on Instagram and that's where your audience is and that's where the majority of your content could potentially be, it doesn't necessarily have to be on a blog. The benefit of the blog though is that your asset that you own, you can control the messaging, you can control how it's, how it's displayed and it's there permanently. It doesn't get lost in a feed or mixed in with other competitors. So the short answer is you don't have to necessarily have a blog, but I think it's very helpful. I think that you could leverage your time when you create specific piece of content and put it on multiple areas including your blog. [12:49.01]

Marty: Oh man. Chris, I was hoping you're coming up with a totally different answer cause that's my answer. But I think the whole point, what you just said is what I try and press upon, especially craft beer because it's easy to throw it up on Instagram, its easy to throw it up on Facebook, but have many of them never seen when Instagram just comes through or Facebook comes through and goes, yeah, we're not going to support that content and we just banned you. And they're like, well why? They'll give you no reason. And it doesn't happen too often. And if you're listening to this, don't freak out about it. It's nothing to worry about, but it's something that you consciously need to remember that you don't own those platforms when with a blog and your website, you do own that too. It should be a whole strategy around everything. [13:37.2]

So what Chris said is, you know, all the things were on Google maps and the SEO pieces. When you think about your actual overall strategy is where do people go to find you? And most of them will go and Google or using their phones and just looking, you know, restaurants near me, golf courses near me, craft breweries near me. Then it does work. But that content, you want to make sure that you keep, and even if you're saving it somewhere else and not pushing it out on the web, it's important. And I can't stress that enough. But if you can get a blog going, it's equally as important because it will help everything. So Chris, when you look at this whole industry and you've been in it for a while, what do you love about it? And if there's one thing, what would you change about it in the marketing industry? [14:22.8]

Chris: So the thing that I love about it is in terms of SEO, the thing that I love is controlling the outcome that I'm trying to achieve. So with SEO I can target multiple keywords, different types of intent, the consumer maybe searching for it. And what I mean by that is if you're, if you have a funnel, you've got your awareness, your engagement and your consideration. The other, the other manner that you hear, this is no like trust. A lot of individuals will just concentrate on the bottom of the funnel.

Marty: Hmm.

Chris: Or maybe just the middle of the funnel. Maybe you just engage a lot on social. Maybe you're just putting out the pieces on social, but you're not engaging. The thing that I liked about just digital marketing strategies and SEO in general is I can create content work for all components of the funnel. I don't have a lot of awareness and people don't know about me. That's where I can concentrate on my content development or shifted down to the bottom. And I can truly be unique and different from my competitors. I can show my expertise and my unique selling proposition. [15:34.5]

Marty: Hmm.

Chris: And my content. That's what I love about it compared to let's say pay-per-click, where it's direct response, it's your leasing. Not to say that it isn't a good lead gen channel. You want to get visibility, but it's not something you really own.

Marty: No, that's really good for sure. And anything that you just really, really despise?

Chris: Well, the thing that I despise, I will say is the paid ads. So Google in the past used to have three at the top and the sidebar, and I was cool with the sidebar, now it's four paid results. I keep driving those organic physicians down there making it more pay to play.

Marty: Right.

Chris: And even on the social standpoint.

Marty: Yeah.

Chris: Facebook, there you used to be able to post a lot of organic content and get a ton of visibility and now they've kind of decreased that percentage and now it's a little bit more pay to play. So that's kind of the downside of some of these social channels is they can throttle back their algorithm and make you pay for more of that visibility. [16:35.8]

Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsandTees.info and get our free report with game changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan. [16:49.1]

Marty: Yeah, well a hundred percent when we started back right out there wasn't a man, even an ad platform algorithm was easy to push out and you could figure out things really fast. And that has gotten more and more complicated as we go. And it's, you know, cause these companies are looking to make money and the ad platforms are their main key and it's a strategy that you have to make your paid campaigns go and be effective, but then your organic should help make everything dance. But a lot of times you don't even notice it like the algorithms and how they change and where you think you're putting a great post out there and you're like, why isn't it getting anything? It's just because of that day and time. And it really is a, I don't want to say a mess, but it's complicated and it's getting more and more complicated the longer and longer I'm in it for sure. And with that, you know we're sitting here and talking about that type of stuff and the algorithm changes and all the fun stuff that goes into both Google and social media, but we're in the middle of this Corona virus pandemic or whatever we're going to call it. What have you seen over the past couple of months, Chris in your business? [17:57.8]

Chris: So for my business, our, our lead gen just went to zilch the last month and a half.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: You know the differences. So we work with personal injury attorneys, they're just, there aren't individuals out driving as much. The auto accidents were down 85% so that's how it really affects me. What I've seen though from our customers are some of the firms are being really reactive and just pausing everything, kind of that fear setting in where the more growth minded abundance minded clients are investing more. And what I like to say is, can you imagine a time in the last 10 to 20 years where your competitors just stopped marketing? How much better would it be for you to market during this time to gain visibility and stand out and no one else just stops?You kind of are running in parallel with them. Well, it's just a great opportunity to stand out now your, your messaging has to be different and more empathetic and not as bottom of the funnel salesy, but it's the long play and that's kind of what I'm seeing right now. [19:04.5]

Marty: Absolutely. When the leads started to come back, I mean, what were they looking for during this time? Anything specific or just getting back in the game?

Chris: I, I, For us, most of them are looking for SEO as a, because they kind of understood that these other channels are weren't that evergreen type of strategy and they're looking for the long-term play and, and I think that's why social is very strong too. It has, it's, it's permanent content that lives on your channels.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: And so that's what they're looking for. I think many of them that were doing TV or or built like billboards and and paid ads, it's just a really rough strategy to have when people aren't driving. [19:46.0]

Marty: Very true. Very true. Do you think like its means hard to look into the crystal ball, but what do you see just in terms of digital and SEO obviously cause that's your expertise. What do you see like the changes, if anything for your clients being in you know, attorneys and personal injury?

Chris: The biggest thing that I, I've seen kind of trending is longer form content ranking better. You have to imagine like Google is getting hundreds of thousands if not millions of pages per day added to the web. So if you are writing the short form content, it typically is harder to stand out because it's just so saturated. The other thing is I'm trying not to become, get too nerdy here. If you have a long term, a long query, you know what is the best brewery near me? Well you can answer that in 500 or a thousand words. You know, the intent of a consumer types that in. [20:48.6]

But if someone just types in the word brewery, you have no clue. Like maybe they're looking for a brewery, maybe they're, who knows what they're looking.

Marty: Right.

Chris: One word. So when that situation occurs, when their query is shorter, the right longer form content to answer for multiple versions of intent.

Marty: Hmm.

Chris: Or multiple topics that they may be typing in. So that's, that's one of the biggest things I see is, is content links, it's just continuing to grow for those shorter phrases? [21:20.6]

Marty: Yeah, I know. And I think what you just said on, in terms of where people are searching in goes back to that blog concept and having a strong SEO setup in your website and then any content that you're putting out there and where you're driving that traffic. That's a big thing what you just said because that's going to change some things.And I think in my opinion, like one of these changes coming out of this little, you know, pause in the economy and everything else that's going on is that people are going to be looking at it from how their spend is. And I don't just mean dollars, but time and effort for not only short term but then long-term things. And what you just said is like the intent, right? So before many times you'd get a client customer saying this is what we want to rank for. And having all those things out there was, you know, all the keywords I should say and having them all out there was a strategy that you could use and for certain things it didn't cost all that much. [22:23.6]

But now like you said, the intent. So now if you have breweries that are switching to take out and they can't have people in their taproom, what keywords are going to be there Right? So it's like what is the intent of that person searching? And I think that's why I stopped you earlier on the Google maps thing because I think that's a huge thing. Making sure Google my business is set up correctly and all those things are set up so you can capture people in that moment that might be looking to call, place and pick up something. [22:51.0]

Chris: Yeah.

Marty: You know, same thing on the golf side is you know, a lot of people are looking for a place to play with. They're looking for the rules and like how are we going to pay and do all that while we're doing this whole social distancing thing? And I'm not saying that you go revamp your entire strategy, but if this goes further, say like two years, let's hope to God it doesn't. But even in the short term, six months, a lot of those paid campaigns that you might've been running in the past that are based on the keywords, always keep that in mind. Some of those things are going to change because the intent has now changed by that user and all that's going to create a whole new whole set of algorithm, fun stuff for us to deal with. [23:30.4]

Chris: A hundred percent agree, Marty. So I just think it's imperative, especially you know, if, if you can't open up your business work, that you have all of these reviews on your Google my business, go in and reply to all of them.

Marty: Hmm..hmm.

Chris: Reply to all of them. Naturally include keywords that relate to your business because that helps you be noticed by multiple versions of intent or work different queries they could type in. The other thing is when you reply, the person that left the review gets a notification so they get that top of mind, they're reminded of you that brand equity. And then last but not least, if, if you want to rank for best brewery near me or best golf course near me, if you have bad reviews, one star reviews and maybe you haven't been intentional about acquiring reviews, typically the only people that leave them if they're not asked are the people that are unhappy.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: You haven't been intentional, you're not going to be able to rank for those superlative queries— Best brewery, Best golf course.

Marty: Right. [24:33.5]

Chris: Top golf course. That's, that's just tremendous real estate and, and that you need to show up for from your consumers.

Marty: Yeah, I could probably talk to you about another hour about reputation management and reviews, but we don't have that kind of time cause it's an interesting part for golf courses and breweries for sure. And it's something, I think most of them do a decent job, but there's little nuances to it that can really help your rankings and people finding you really quickly. So you know, as far as that, you know, I did a bunch of interviews before I started doing these marketing interviews cause I thought they were important and a lot of them are pretty fun and those are going to be released soon. Normally like to talk about things with this whole whole podcast is about beer and golf. So the first question I have for you, Chris as we wrap this up is have you ever had like a favorite beer or favorite craft beer? [25:25.2]

Chris: Can I say all of them? Let's say I'm, I'm really partial to Hoegaarden really.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: That's when I pop up and tendto get in the grocery store but I like all the, and everything. IPAs, Lagers is loggers, you name it.

Marty: Yup. No and I think it's the thing that's important too sometimes when you talk about craft beer and you just like say, yeah, all of them. Right? And when you say IPAs and lagers, you know that's awesome because what is the style of beer And putting it out there and talking about it in the style I think is important as craft beer has grown. Some people they're like, Oh, I like this? And they're like, Oh well we have you ever had this or this? And they're like, no. So it's like, what are you comparing it to? And you know, it's not a knock on anybody, it's just the education of beer drinker. It's become more and more like wine almost every day where it's pairing it with food and doing a lot of fun stuff like that. Favorite brewery, have you ever been to one or taking a tour that's like number one for you? [26:30.0]

Chris: Well, I lived in St Louis for a long time.

Marty: I know, that's why I was asking.

Chris: Yeah. You know I was referring to

Marty: I know your answer.

Chris: That's a really fun tour. I got to say a few here. I will that I really like the, see here, what's the brewery in North Tampa? Yuengling, I like Yuengling’s brewery and their, their tour. And there's another local one in St Louis called 4 hands some, I'm a big fan of.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: And Schalfly Bottleworks, Schalfly 's has got a great tour. It's really neat facility. So yeah, those are some of my favorites. [27:10.9]

Marty: No, that's cool. And it's funny you mentioned Yuengling down in, in, in Florida cause the original one is in my backyard. I've been there multiple times times and its the oldest craft brewery or brewery in America. So people will debate, abut it's craft craft beer. Technically it gives Pennsylvania the lead because it's independently owned. People will debate whether it's technically craft beer, but then you know, they had a I know they had breweries down in Florida and probably a few other places, but I didn't know they did tours of that one.

Chris: So that one was, that's around Bruce B. Downs that area, North Tampa.

Marty: Yeah.

Chris: And the thing I loved about that tour was they gave you a beer at the beginning of the tour. You don’t have to wait for the tasting room at the end. [27:52.1]

Marty: Yup. No, no. Yeah, I know. Well the one in the one in Pottsville, the original Yuengling, what's really interesting about it is where it's at. So they had to like have different trucks kind of go in there cause he couldn't take a big truck. I mean it's been around for forever, but when I went there, so this was right after I turned 21 so it was like 96 and it was, Yuengling was like the only thing we drank in college and I went there and it was just like unlimited beer. Right? Like at the end of the brewery tour it was just, you can drink however much you want. They quickly changed that. I don't know, it wasn't because of my crew that went in there, but they had changed that, you know, very quickly thereafter. And when I was in Amsterdam and I went to the Heineken, brewery. That was the only other one. They were like, you can sit here for the rest of the day if you want. And I was like, huh. I'm like, that's pretty cool, but you can't really do that. [28:46.8]

Chris: Yeah.

Marty: But its cool, that's a good concept. And then sit there all day. You golf Chris at all?

Chris: So I live on a golf course, I'm over it.

Marty: Yeah, you do.

Chris: Yup. Yup. And yeah, Far Oaks in O'Fallon, Illinois. But I, I would say I do golf. I wouldn't call myself a double bogey golfer. I would say maybe a triple bogey golfer.

Marty: That’s fine.

Chris: If there is something like that.

Marty: Oh, there's plenty of them.

Chris: Yeah. Not a time. Maybe five times a year.

Marty: Nice.

Chris: I want to do a lot more though.

Marty: Yeah, we all do, I think, I mean, I know I do, but yeah, it's interesting. So my one question when I talked to somebody that's not a big golfer is like, what's your perception of like golf marketing? And you may or may not have the perfect answer, but I know you worked as an affiliate.

Chris: Hmm.

Marty: You know, in, in that world. So what's like the kind of the, the, the thoughts that you have, like what golf does in the marketing world? [29:43.4]

Chris: Yes, I think, I think the individuals, the does showcase customer service well stand out more because I think that, and I could be totally wrong, but I feel like there's a lot, at least for I go, there's a lot more casual golfers. So those that really cater to those individuals stand out a bit more. But for me, and this is kind of interesting, we could have a whole different topics here since I'm not good. I have like a fear of going out on these nicer courses. So I'm looking at these, the golf course that hasn't been mowed for a little bit and it's got the weeds up on the side.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Chris: Those are the ones that I'm kind of looking forward to kind of improve my game a little bit better before I moved to those nicer ones. [30:30.0]

Marty: Yeah. It's so funny that you say that. So I played on, other than when my uncle and grandfather would take me out, I played on like probably one of the biggest dog tracks ever. Most of my high school, I won't name it, but it was awful. But you know, I got to play, it was like six bucks or whatever. I didn't have any money. So we both play there. And then I remember graduating or graduating from high school and then I was playing in one summer and I got invited to this club and I was like, Oh shit, you know, like here we go, like it's fancy and all this. And I, when I was younger I played much better than I do now. And I'm all nervous because I'm like, you know this place I'm afraid to touch anything. You know, like I was not a country club kid growing up and I'm like free to touch anything type of deal. Right? [31:22.6]

So then I finally get in there and I'm like, man, these guys are going to be really good. And I was like the best one out of the group. They all sucked. Like they were worse than anything. So like I hear that quite often and I've worked in the affiliate side in golf and doing some other stuff in golf too. And that's one of the big things that I like, you know, if you follow Barstool sports, what foreplay their podcast and brand of there has done to me is dropped the guard a little bit. I mean, I could sit here and tell you stories, you know, country clubs, stories that would be like, Whoa, you know, that's, that's the type of place I thought it was. And I'm not saying it's caddy shack, but at the same time, you know, I think it's intimidating for people that don't play. [32:09.8]

And I think welcoming new golfers and people that you know, only play five, six times a year and dropping their guard so that they do feel comfortable is a huge miss that golf, you know, needs to address. And they, I think they are, I think it's slowly happening and unfortunately you almost have to let the old guard just move on, pass away. And it's an interesting time and I think you bringing that up just like has me going in a million different directions because there's so many ideas, concepts I've talked to with course owners and country club folks that they want to implement, but they're like, well, you know, we have kind of these people here that don't want to see that. And it's nothing bad. But I think it it to invite those people like yourself. You shouldn't feel intimidated, it's a game. Man you should have fun and do it. But I understand where you're coming from. And that's a great point to bring out one of the best ones I've had in these interviews actually. [33:03.3]

Chris: Well thanks, thanks Marty. So one of the things

Marty: Hi five Chris.

Chris: Yes, I was going to say, you know, you've got your different avatars or different buyers that you want to appeal to for your golf course. Maybe your golf course is high end and you don't want the people that are terrible. You are not ruining that reputation, who knows. But I think for an individual like me where there's a lot more of us than probably them, that's why things like the scrambles, the golf scrambles are really appealing. It's like, well I can shank one but at least somebody will hit one good and I can go play off of that. [33:37.4]

Marty: Yup. Yeah. And it's just an interesting take and I appreciate you coming on today. And you know, like I said in doing all these interviews, the whole point is just to bring you a different viewpoint. And you know, I know based on the numbers that some of you are listening to this, I want to introduce you to people that I know that I trust, I like, and I actually know what they're talking about. So even though Chris isn't in the golf arena or craft beer arena and doing marketing all the time, he has a lot of knowledge and if you know of anybody that can use his services definitely have them reach out to Chris, because he is somebody that knows what he's doing and can get results. That's the most important thing in this whole thing. So Chris, thank you very much for coming on and spending some time with me and I'll see you soon, I hope.

Chris: Yeah, Marty, thanks so much for having me.

Marty: Alright buddy. Have a good one. [34:28.0]

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