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Marketing, branding and storytelling are sexy topics. They’re fun and grow your business. But if you slack off on the “boring” fundamentals, your business might go under before you get to the fun stuff.

Insurance is one of those topics. If your insurance doesn’t cover a major accident, you’re screwed. Kyle Rheiner insures more than 150 craft beverage companies.

In this episode, Kyle shows you how you can sleep easy and stop worrying about hidden risks in your company. Want to get your insurance right and get to the fun stuff in your business again?

Listen now!

Show highlights include: 

  • 3 signs you need better insurance now. (5:22)
  • Why you should never do your own paperwork. (6:18)
  • What good marketing and insurance have in common (both can cost or save you millions). (12:20)
  • How to keep bad insurance coverage from killing your expansion. (13:44)
  • 2 reasons your insurance company might leave you while you’re still paying for coverage. (16:44)
  • Get listed on this “Amazon for beer” platform and grow your sales in the crisis. (23:30)

If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure you head on over to www.tapsandtees.info and download your free report of ‘No BS,’ game-changing marketing tips and strategies that show you how to blow up your brand online.

Read Full Transcript

You are listening to the Taps and Tee show weekly conversations for people, passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino an award winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]

Marty: Hey everybody welcome back to Taps and Tees. Like I said in the previous couple episodes here have been bringing on experts in craft beer as well as marketing experts and today is no different. We have a good guest today and somebody that I've met actual beer events and they were educational events, not just us drinking, which we do occasionally at those events as you know, and I think it's important, you know when you hear all the other stuff that had been putting out for the past few years from an agency perspective. So also take a look at your entire business. You know, I think, and I know when you're looking at it, whether you're just starting out or you're 10 years in or you're very experienced veteran in the craft, brew, beer, beer and brewing. The interesting part about it is you forget some of the basics of business. And Kyle here is somebody that has demonstrated that and I've seen him speak and I've also heard him speak just in smaller groups and he does really well with his clients. [01:18.4]

What he is, well he's a great guy first and foremost, but he also works with a ton of brewers in Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, DC, New Jersey, New York, West Virginia and a ton of other places. Consulting as well as writing out your plan and making sure that you have the right quote and you have the right coverage in your business, which is super important. So whether your brewery you have a brew pub maybe or you might be making cider or you might be going in the hard seltzer, you might have a mobile canning, a bottle shop bar, it's having restaurant, you get the picture, you need the proper insurance. And Kyle is a member of many of the groups that I belong to locally. And I know he's all over the place. Visiting brewers and not only knows the brewing industry but knows how to make sure to protect your business, which I think is super important now and in the future. And if you haven't sat down with somebody, you know, I highly recommend sitting down with somebody that knows the industry. It's super important. I know your cousin might do your insurance. I know, you know, you might have an old friend that can write insurance, but they need to understand the nuances. And that's why I'm bringing Kyle on today. So Kyle, are you there? [02:27.1]

Kyle: You know what, Marty, I appreciate it man. Thank you.

Marty: You're welcome, man. Why don't you tell everybody a little bit more than my just, you know, big intro there.

Kyle: That was quite the intro. Yeah. So I had you know, out of college, I started in the financial services world and I graduated on a Saturday and then Monday I went to work. And I was in the industry, variable annuities, mutual funds…I did that for seven years and realized that was not passionate about it. So I realized that what I was passionate about was, you know, sitting with individuals and businesses and, you know, again, just meeting with people instead of being stuck in an office. And that's really where, you know, I actually get the opportunity to, I think, separate myself. But at that point, you know, I quit my job. I had a I had a wife, I had a daughter at home. My wife was taking care of the daughter, we had two cars and a house. And you know, I quit and I you know, I decided that I was going to be an insurance agent and that was kind of it at that point. [03:30.2]

And it really, you know, it took two years to kind of figure out what I wanted to do. I started reading a lot and learning a lot and really just kind of becoming a little more self-aware. And from there I decided I was gonna start focusing on breweries craft beverage. I do have a marketing background, so I kind of keep my ear to the streets and I had saw, you know, the laws loosening. I had seen the opportunity for a potential like boom of beverages. And so I kind of went that route and I, I called my underwriters, said, Hey, what if I start doing this? And they said, let's try it. And now I insure over 150 breweries, distilleries, cideries and really just, you know, craft beverage companies in the United States.

Marty: That's awesome. I think when we first met and talking about it, I mean, your passion kind of comes through that. I mean, that kind of, it does. And I think it's important when you look at craft beer and craft beverage industry and everything that's changed over the past six years, you know, what's the one thing, you know, if somebody's sitting here listening to it and going, Oh man, I'm a little nervous. I never really did look at my insurance, you know, how do you start that conversation and what's your process to make sure they're insured properly? [04:43.5]

Kyle: Well, what I like to do, first of all really, you know, get a feel for them. You know, do they, where do they want to be? You know, so a lot of times I'd try to interview potential clients and you, are you a good fit for me? Am I a good fit for you? And let me see your business plan. Where do you want to be in five years? Because there are some folks out there who say, you know, I had just want to brew beer, I want to brew, I want to make beer and make enough of it just where, you know, I get to drink beer for free and we're good.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: And so that's not really somebody where I can sit down and make a difference for. So really, you know, let's take a look at your, your outlook, where you want to be, what do you want to do? And then I have those experiences at this point. Hey, you want to cross state lines? Hey you want a 30,000 square foot space? You know, now you're brewing seven days a week, three times a day. That's really where we start to dig into that manufacturing risk. And that is where we can kind of put some parameters in place that are just more than, you know, what your lease may outline. You know, there's a lot of times where I got to the brewery is going to open the sale, my lease says I need general liability insurance. That's all I need. That's it, really? That's all you need? You know, so we kinda we back into it from there, like to find out what their biggest fear is. [05:59.4]

Marty: Sure.

Kyle: And you know, try to attack those, those needs and really protect that peace of mind for them.

Marty: What's the biggest mistake that you see in craft breweries that are starting up in terms of insurance?

Kyle: Going for the cheapest price possible. Also trying to do a lot of the paperwork themselves from a legal standpoint. You know, you wouldn't call a roofer to fix your plumbing.

Marty: Right.

Kyle: So you know, the situation with, you know, specializing in a niche, and I spoke to, it was about 200 folks. I got picked and I spoke down in New Orleans a few years back and it was about, you know, it was a niche master event.

Marty: Okay.

Kyle: And from that, you know, I had, it just kind of came out of my mouth and it's kind of been quoted, but you know, you don't know what you don't know. So when you're working with insurance agents that don't go to breweries, don't make beer, never worked for a brewery. You know, I've worked for breweries, I've spent my life in a restaurant business. They don't know what exposures are out there. [07:00.0]

Marty: Okay.

Kyle: They don't know the type of people that work there and why they work there. So you really gotta take a 360 degree approach to it. But again, to your point as to what is the biggest mistake it's going for the cheapest policy. And I will tell you that, you know, when it comes to insurance typically, you know, say the cheaper your policy, well that means that you've removed coverage.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: And now you’ve created coverage gaps and that tends to be, you know, a big problem. And same thing with the, you know, the attorney, right? They try to do their paperwork themselves with somebody who doesn't do it and then, you know, they say, I literally just had this conversation the other day and they said, well, I wish I went with this guy from the start because I wasted about two grand and then had to start over, you know, so.

Marty: Right.

Kyle: Do it right from the start. Find somebody who's passionate, find somebody who specializes and you know, just do it right. You can't build a 50,000 square foot building on a 500 square foot foundation. [07:56.3]

Marty: Right. No, that's really good advice. I mean, I remember my dad when I was just out of college and I was getting my own insurance for the first time. And he was like, yeah, he's like, you can just figure it out. And I was like, okay, and you know, your natural inclination is to go with, Oh, you know, I got something that was a good price. Right. And then my dad looked at the policy and he was like, this isn't going to work for you. He was like, well, it works technically, legally. He's like, you're covered. He's like, but where you drive? He's like, and for the car you're driving, you have to worry about hitting, you know, $90,000 Mercedes more so than them hitting your 1998 Ford Contour. You know and then he's like.

Kyle: Absolutely. [08:39.9]

Marty: So like the way this is written, he's like, yeah, this protects but someone, you know, this could really impact you. And he explained to me and he's, I was like, Oh, you know, and you know when you're first starting out, I was like, Oh well that's an extra 50 bucks a month. You know, you can go with this or you can go with that. And he's like, you want to spend the extra $50 a month and insurance is that thing, you know, I've learned in business and then personally, he’s like, you know for me you don't worry about it until you need it and when you need it you're going to thank your lucky stars that you bought the right policy. And I never made an insurance claim up until last year and I had a fire and it wasn't in my place, but it was in the place next door and I had a ton of smoke damage and I was so glad that I had the really good insurance because it was an easier process and they made it go really quick where other people in that building had some issues and you know, there was a really like a big life lesson and it made me evaluate everything and kind of switching up everything and making sure that it was a hundred percent covered. So when you're looking at that and say you're an established brewery, you know, what do they come to you with? Are they just looking to save money or are they looking to change things? Like what's that conversation like? [09:52.4]

Kyle: You know what; we'll take a look at more risk management techniques. We try to find out where some of their issues have been and what, you know, sometimes you have situations that are repetitive and they start to drive up your insurance. Certain claims you might have a repetitive workers' compensation type claims. What I found, we have a little tool that it'll analyze, you know, what days of the week your claims happen on? Why they happen? Is it a back strain? Is it a cut? So we find that, you know, a lot of restaurants end up continuing to cut their fingers so they start, stop wearing their gloves or start wearing their gloves. There's different things you can do. You'll find that, you know, maybe sometimes with a grocery store that, you know, I worked with a number of those and regarding say claims scenarios, we have found that, you know, some of the folks I work with, a lot of their claims happen on Fridays.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: And it's oftentimes a, you know, a hurt foot or shoulder arm or laceration. And it turns out that when we sit down with those companies and saying, Oh well that was Fridays are the days that our managers are, you know, the one manager is, that's his off day. [10:56.2]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: Oh, maybe we should move his off date a Monday so that we can reduce these Friday claims. Cause when you have these claims, especially on the workers' compensation side, they stick with you for three, four years and they really, you know, they drastically affect your insurance premium. And then the other side of it is again, just risk, risk management, risk mitigation. And we have some tools in house that allow us to really analyze these. And we have some partnerships with insurance companies that because we specialize in a niche and we get some priority, we get some other things here and there, you know, just in terms of, you know, maybe some coverage that others can't get or maybe some coverage that other people don't ask for because they don't specialize in that niche.

Marty: Yup.

Kyle: So again, it's a, it's being, being in, being involved and being in the center of it. That is that makes all the difference. [11:45.9]

Marty: Truly does. I mean when you have that, I mean that's one of the reasons and one of the reasons everybody listening to this why I'm bringing people not only in the marketing agency and that might be a little world, you know agency world and it might be a little confusing to you is like, well why would you bring on people that were competitors or other things to Bad Rhino? And that's not really the case is I know, you know the feedback that I've gotten from doing these podcasts and the people that are listening to them, you know, it's trying to educate a little bit more and that's why I'm bringing on you know, an insurance person. Because many times when I've been involved and going into a brewery and we start marketing, you start to develop that plan. The interesting part that comes out is like, Oh well I got to review my insurance in six months. I got to do this. And it's become something of a neat little symbiotic relationship where you have people that you can refer. [12:41.2]

But what I find is many times in the business plan, the insurance isn't adequate. Marketing is an adequate, like it's, I don't know why it's just those two things seem to be there and it comes in this conversation every time. And I'm just trying to make sure that when you're listening to this, you're getting good information to make decisions. Whether you hire bad rhino, whether you hire somebody like Kyle, you know, start to take the time to do that and kind of review some of those things because everything changes over time. Your insurance policy that was good in 2018 might not be good now that we're in 2020 so Kyle, the other question I have just specifically about how you go through that process with brewers of all sorts and you know, other beverage makers, like when somebody sits down and says, tell me everything I need to know, like what's that like? Like I think some of the examples that you have, but let's just bring it back just to crack breweries, right? And let's say they want to expand. What are the things that they need to think about, not only in their current insurance, but they're going to open another location. They're going to add food, all these things, what should they be thinking about before they talk to somebody like you? [13:49.6]

Kyle: Well, so as they are looking at a new space, I mean it's always very, very important to get, say your insurance agent involved quickly. I put out a piece that says pretty much if there's a word out there that ends in ING and you know, you're doing it, you're thinking about it, you're leasing, you're renting, you're moving. Call me. Cause there's so many times where I find out about things that it's like, Hey, we moved over the weekend. I'm like, Oh great because you didn't tell me that. And your coverage is, you know, providing coverage for your other location. So there are also some things I think that set us apart in that, you know, yeah, right. Insurance. But my job also is to be a connector. So when you are looking at expansion, right, you should be working with the folks who have done the architect work, done the builds of breweries before. Those are the folks that we connect with. We have essentially like a playbook. You know, you reach out to us. We have consultants, you know, they're, they run their own businesses, but they're all within our circle. Many of them are in the, in the Guild and that's why the guild is so important. [14:52.0]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: But you know, you started thinking about, all right, what does that space you're going to do? Will you have a food menu? Maybe currently you're brewing, maybe you're brewing right now in a seven barrel system and you are just doing a hundred percent beer and you don't have a menu, you have food trucks. Now what you're looking at is, are we're going to expand? We're going to open up a restaurant, we're going to add food. Well, that changes the dynamic of not only your insurance, but also of like your clientele and who's going to come. So it kind of depends on, you know, what you want, why are you moving? I think a lot of things always come back to your why. But again, get us involved as soon as possible because you know, you may not want to call your insurance agent. I know we're not the most fun, but we may know somebody who would be important for you to speak to before you actually make that move. So again, just try to be a resource there. [15:40.4]

Oh, that's huge. And I think you spell it out really well of thinking of those things. That's why I asked you that question because he covered a lot of those things earlier. You know, you talked about like a startup brewery and thinking about business plan and where you want to go and what you want to do. And then you know, when you think about expansion, sometimes you wait for that insurance after that. Like, Hey, we just signed a lease. We just did this. We just ordered our restaurant equipment. Well you know and then it's like, okay, Oh, and then we should probably call the insurance. And I think in my 20 years in running companies or startups and being involved in one way, shape or form, I do think there's a couple of people on your team that you should call first. One of them is absolutely in addition to however you're financing it, another one of those ING words, how you're insuring it is key because that could affect how you finance it. It could affect so many other things of your insurance costs. So you want to make sure you get those things pulled in. And I think you have a, a great way of kind of spelling that out. Plus, you know the industry and. [16:40.1]

Marty: Yeah. So let me, let me pop in real quick. So something I didn't even talk about. So, all right, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna go get this new location, alright and we already signed the lease. Well, maybe this lease has a requirement for you to have a $10 million umbrella. Well, now that essentially is going to mean you're going to pay an extra $10,000 a year. We take, you know, an average umbrella is roughly about a thousand dollars per million. And that's on top of your existing policy. So what are the limits that the landlord is saying that they're requiring? We negotiate some of those in or out, up or down. There's language in the lease that says you're responsible for any and all blah, blah, blah. There's no insurance policy and there's no agreement out there that ensures any at all. There's always an exclusion, there's always some caveat; so we try to negotiate that wording out or change it. [17:26.6]

Kyle: Hmm.

Marty: Also, hey, if you're gonna go put your brewery on the beach, well guess what? A lot of insurance companies don't like anything on the beach, so you may no longer fit with your insurance carrier. You may want to start doing distilling spirits at your new location and brewing beer. Well, guess what? Not every insurance company likes distilling. So you may no longer fit or you may outgrow your existing policy. And that's why it's very important you, you'd rather get ahead of that and find out after you've already made that move or sign that lease. Absolutely. [17:59.4]

Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsandTees.info and get our free report with game changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan.

Marty: So we're recording this right now is the end of April in 2020 we're in quarantine or some version of it quarantine depending on what part of the country you're in. And I've absolutely seen a huge impact in our craft brewery clients and restaurants and golf courses that we work with in terms of their marketing and making a shift and getting ready for whatever that new normal is. Kyle, what have you been seeing and what are you doing personally in your own business that kind of meet the needs of those folks that you serve? [18:41.7]

Kyle: You know what I'm doing honestly is being available as much as I can. I put in bragging, I haven't done this in a long time just because I make sure I spend time with my family. The last night my kids went to bed and I worked from nine to midnight.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: And you know, when I was first like trying to get into the industry and trying to make it happen, that's what I would do. I mean I was putting in 16-17 hours a day. So this, you know, coronavirus situation, you know, now as a time to be available more than ever. And you know, with that, my email's backed up, my voice mail’s backed up. But for me to hunker down on my desk last night and really sit down and dig into my email and everything else that's up coming and changes to people's businesses, you know, the best thing that I can do right now is be proactive and be available. [19:28.0]

We're seeing changes in business, a lot of to go models. People are, you know, they were bartending and now they're delivering beer. Making sure that we have certain coverages here for the folks who are delivering, there's billing changes, bills are on hold, not everybody knows that. So you know, if I can, you know, hold your bill for a month or 30 days, 60 days, and maybe that helps you with cashflow or paying your payroll, that's, that's what I'm trying to do. We have the distilleries are now doing hand sanitizer; that's a different business model. The insurance companies that insure distilleries were not in the market to do medical products. You know, now they are for the time being and I had to get some, you know, I had to kind of beg for some allowances on that. So it's time to change and it's happening fast. And like I said, the, the thing that I can do here is be proactive and available. That's what I've been trying to do my best out. [20:20.9]

Marty: No, that's awesome. I think that's the best way you can do any, since you brought it up, I think invaluable to the people that listen to this. So let's say, you know, you're sitting there and you switched to it to go model and you're going to be doing takeout and you're planning it or you're already doing it and you do have that, you know, tap room person that was a bartender maybe, and now they're doing other things. Is there things from an insurance perspective that an owner should be looking at or changing? [20:50.5]

Kyle: Yeah, so for some of the folks that, you know, started doing this, we said, Hey, we need to know who's driving, right? We want to make sure that they have a good driving record. You need to look that up. You need to have their license on file. You should have a best practices template for delivery drivers. So putting some parameters in place, I mean maybe they're not perfect and it doesn't have to be a 30 page document, but you know have a team meeting, sit down. Maybe you know, maybe the, the owner or one of the higher ups, there is somebody who has longevity, maybe they're the driver for the few first few days and they have somebody tag along with them, you know, get to know the roots, get to know how you want your business viewed, right? Because you know, now this, this person, obviously a bartender is pretty personable, but you know, when you are not behind the bar and now you're out in public, you're still representing your brewery or your distillery that you're working for. [21:45.2]

So you know, have that conversation with your employees. Sit down and say, Hey, here's, here's what's happening. We want to keep you on. We're going to give you a different role. Things are going to be different, but here's how we want you to handle it. And I think, you know, first and foremost, just having that communication with your employees and again, just making sure that they carry themselves, you know, the right way. I mean, really what they're essentially doing is bringing smiles to people's doorsteps, which is fantastic and it's cool. And it's been great to have product show up on my front porch, you know?

Marty: Hmm..hmm.

Kyle: And it's cool to see the employees and it's, it's fun and it's nice and it's, you know, now they're out there and they're in their brewery or distillery shirt and it's more marketing for them. So as long as you're carrying yourself well and you're doing things the right way, you're being safe about it, you know, have at it. But have that conversation with your folks and have some sort of guidelines. [22:33.7]

Marty: No, I think that's good advice. How do you think this whole thing is going to impact the craft brewing industry or in the, you know, the beverage industry on the whole?

Kyle: It's interesting, you know, Georgia just opened up their borders, or not the borders, but Georgia just opened up their restaurants and bars and their businesses again. So I'm interested to see, I think waffle house opened 400 locations back up. So with that, you know, every third booth was open. There's glass plexiglass, you know, every third booth or you know, surrounding you to stop the spread of germs. The folks were saying that, you know, a typical restaurant bar has, you know, it's a, it's a seating for 20-30 at the bar, you know, it's 30 feet long essentially, and now you're gonna have to be eight to 10 feet apart. So where you would have 20 people, 30 people at your bar, now you might have four to six. [23:21.3]

So you're going to have to get used to, you know, I guess running at a fifth of capacity maybe, you know, again, this is just created some opportunities. You know, the folks that Beer Me! have, you know, the folks that True Respite brewing have created Beer Me!, which is a platform, it's kind of like Amazon for beer. Now everybody can type in their address and see what beers available, find some new breweries and distilleries, cider that they never had before and order it. [23:45.0]

So it's sparking creativity, but I am curious to see, you know, where sales will end up, will people start going right back out? People be hesitant or you know, like me, I'm like, as much as I love sitting down in the bar, you are at a brewery seeing the stainless and having a beer with a friend, like it's pretty sweet having a beer delivered to my doorstep, you know, so I don't know it's going to be different. You know, the landlord isn't really gonna reduce his rent. You might have some, I don't know how long the extension say on paying back loans is going to be, but there's ultimately going to be less income coming into the business so they'll have to run leaner more efficiently and yeah, adapt and change and do something new. But thank goodness for cans, you know, transportation and delivery. So we'll see what stays there. Again, some of these laws were loosened during this time.

Marty: Hmm…hmm. [24:39.7]

Kyle: We'll see if they go back to where they were.

Marty: Yeah. No, I don't think anybody knows. It's just interesting to talk about and chat about these things to kind of get ideas and concepts out there. I mean I think there's going to be innovation born out of this. Right. And I do think, you know, the challenges are like, like you said, you have beer delivered to your home. I've actually been drinking way less beer since this whole thing started because I'm more of a social guy like I want to go and hang out and have beers with my friends or I go to a brewery and experience and meet new people and things like that. So that definitely has impacted that obviously. And I think it, we'll get back to that at some point, but there's going to be a weird change. [25:26.7]

That's the only way I can describe it as weird because who knows, you know it's going to be a vaccine and you're going to have to get tested when you walk into places. Are you going to have to get tested and carry something? And there's a lot of things that will change people's habits because they won't want to get tested and they don't want to give up some privacy as well. And I think that's always fascinating to see those dynamics and taprooms, bars, pubs have always been a place where people would share ideas and get together. And that's deep, really rooted in Western society and around the world. But it's deeply rooted in the US so I'm interested to see how that's going to change and how that's going to impact the whole thing. And unfortunately I think you're going to see some massive changes in craft beer, especially where they're going to have to not only change the model, but they're also going to have to reconsider about how they are putting out their product, how they're pricing it and things like that. [26:24.7]

And the unfortunate part of it is, you know, it could be breweries going out of business, which I would hate to see, but it's the reality of it. But as you said, nobody knows. And who knows, we're sitting here right at the tail end of April, you know, this could all change in a week and in a day and hopefully for the positive and we'll just keep pushing on that way. So segue-ing out of all the serious and fun stuff or into some fun stuff rather. Where's the best place you've traveled either around the world or just in the US? [26:51.6]

Kyle: Well, I would say that you know, my wife's family's from Chicago. Chicago is a fantastic place and I never gone there and now I've been there, I don't know more than I can count on my two hands and, and that's definitely a favorite place. I have had that opportunity with being in the beer business to travel to New Orleans and speak. Had a blast there and it was fantastic. I actually ran into some friends that were down there at a bachelor party, we hung out with them. And then my wife and I got to go to CBC, we went to Nashville. So those Chicago, Nashville, New Orleans I would say are definitely tops right now. We have a trip planned at the end of July for Ireland and I don't know if that's happening or not.

Marty: Hmm.

Kyle: But fingers crossed, we'll see. But you know, I was hoping that was gonna be my next favorite spot. So but ultimately, man, I like to like to be local. I like to be at a brewery, you know, and just, I like the vibe, like to have a beer fresh out of the tank.

Marty: Yeah.

Kyle: And it doesn't really matter where it is. [27:54.7]

Marty: Yeah, that is a definitely an experience. So very few times that I have non brewers on this podcast that somebody probably has been to either more breweries or at least as many breweries as I have, which is quite extensive. And so I'm interested to hear this answer, so I'm gonna actually ask this in two parts; usually ask it only in one. What's been the best beer you ever had from a craft brewery? And if you don't want to name it because you don't want to insult a client or whatever, I'm cool with that. But I think you'll tell me then the second thing is, is what's the best one that you've had in PA or multiple ones that you had in PA? [28:34.3]

Kyle: Honestly, I think I'm trying to pinpoint my favorite beer or the best beer I ever had, but I would stay that the best beer I've probably ever had has come out of Pennsylvania. And I think Pennsylvania is, we are very spoiled. We have some kick ass breweries and some kick ass beer. I did do we just, you know, six feet of beer challenge, six foot beer challenge.

Marty: Saw that on your Instagram or Facebook.

Kyle: Yeah, so there are two beers on there that do stand out to me that are kind of near and dear to my heart and carton brewing in New Jersey.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: They put out their cream ale. It's a 12% it's an Imperial cream alel, which is crazy. Most most cream ales are, you know, 5% right in Genesee. This is a 12% and they do some weird stuff very well and that beer is the Cafe Ichiro. [29:23.7]

So it is a coffee style. It's now it's a light colored beer. It's like colored cream mail but it has a coffee flavor. They do this regular coffee. Is like a normal deal? It's, if you go to New Jersey and you get a cough, you asked for a regular coffee, I think you get two sugars, two creams in it, something like that. Cream and sugar automatically comes in and a regular coffee. So they make that beer announced exactly what it tastes like. Then they do a variant of it and it says this coffee Ichiro so coffee and you know, cinnamon and sugar.

Marty: Wow, cool!

Kyle: And it is all present beer. It's killer. And that beer is always good. Even I have some that I've had a year and they're awesome. That beer and then truly East Branch Brewing down the street here in Downingtown.

Marty: Yeah. [30:08.3]

Kyle: I think Alluvium.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: Is one of the beers I've ever had. That beer if you closed your eyes, you'd pretty much say it was I think Heady Topper. But when you have it in a glass, you know, I don't think Heady Topper is the greatest beer anymore.

Marty: No No.

Kyle: I actually, I think Focal bangers better than that.

Marty: Me too.

Kyle: This beer that they've created a Alluvium is a, I don't know, it's, it's dank. It's like East coast and West coast put together and it's clear.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: So it's not the hazy stuff. That's just the well-made beer from a technical stylistic standpoint. Those two stand out, those two are, I can drink any day. You know, Death by coconut. Oskar Blues is awesome.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: I mean, there's some, there's some wacky stuff out there that I've had, you know the Brew Gentlemen, you know, no doubt. [30:56.8]

Marty: Yeah another one.

Kyle: I have three brew gentlemen kegs for my birthday, you know, they, everything they do is fantastic. Dancing gnomes right out there with them. That's, you know, when you go East, you know, I have no problem driving to Pittsburgh, you go get a crawler right.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: Pennsylvania kicks ass with beer, Philadelphia area, Lehigh Valley and the Pittsburgh area, it's just crushing it. And obviously the centre part of the State, I mean you can't, you can go anywhere in Pennsylvania you get a fantastic beer, so. We are.

Marty: It is true.

Kyle: We are truly spoiled.

Marty: Yeah. I've been all over PA like you and I will, I will definitely give them the two that you brought up. I mean, Alluvium is one of those beers…I remember the first time I went in there and I was just like, yeah, I'll have this and then I'll like, I'm going to have one more. And then I think I bought whatever they had to take away. [31:50.0]

I bought whatever they had there and I remember that one was one that was like impressionable, you know, I think is the best word to say. And it's Brew Gentlemen would be the other one. You know, and I'm not slighting anybody else, but I do think what you mentioned at the end where you know at some point in there it was like when you get into the hazy part, and to me many of them, not all of them, they start to taste the same where they have a flavor profile that is too similar to so many other things. So when you, you know, if you're local and you have your one favorite brewery, I think it's, you know, it has that audience I think for your more, you know, whatever you want to name it, people that have had multiple from multiple breweries all over the country. [32:41.6]

I, I've had one hazy here and I'm like, eh, okay that's good. Then have another one. I'm like, Hmm, that tastes pretty similar to whatever. And then you have another one, it's like ah, that tastes very similar to this or that. But I think that the reason Alluvium stands out so well to me is that, and you put it perfectly, it's like this combination West coast and East coast type beer, you know, whatever that means to you; cause that means different things to other people. But it's nice, clear, crisp, and you're like, you walk away like, man, that was tasty. [33:13.7]

Kyle: Yeah.

Marty: Like and it meets all the parameters. It's when.

Kyle: Even when you crack the can you smell it like Holy shit that it smells awesome.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle: I want to drink all of that.

Marty: Yeah. It's a unique dynamic in there. And then Brew Gentlemen, you know, if you're listening to this and you're, you make a trip and you're in Pittsburgh or I will even tell you if you're an hour away, if you're two hours away, not to make this into a Brew Gentlemen commercial, but it's, I highly recommend that place. I can't recommend it enough. It's not only a cool little spot they're growing, but they have very interesting beers that are very, very well thought out put together and they taste great. [33:53.6]

Kyle: And that shows in on their taproom, in their colors and their marketing and brand.

Marty: Yeah. And the presentation and everything about it.

Kyle: Bartenders wear ties. I mean, come on.

Marty: I know, it's a really cool atmosphere. I think I've seen this before on your profile and we known each other for a few years that you play golf regularly or how often? [34:11.2]

Kyle: Yeah. You know what, I, I try to play as much as I can. Last year, you know, I took a step back and I did a lot more fishing.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: Got to fly fishing. I grew up fishing, but yeah, man, I golf, I'm actually wearing a Bandon Dunes zip up right now, which is a golf course that I hope to play at one day. I, I know a guy who went, brought me this bag, but.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Kyle: You know, that's a place where it's six courses in Oregon and you've got to book your tee time a year in advance. Like come on,so. [34:37.1]

Marty: So I've had dinner there. Yeah. When I visited a great friend of mine out in Oregon and haven't played it yet, but it's on my list I think. Next time I go out West, I'm gonna try and book it and spend a, a solid week out there. It's a cool place. Very cool. And I can't wait to play it. [34:55.7]

Kyle: Yeah. So yeah, I play, I played in the league for a number of years and that's Tuesday nights at night, nine holes. So that was a nice thing that like forced me to play.

Marty: Sure.

Kyle: I was …uh.

Marty: Once you can get on the schedule, it's always a good thing.

Kyle: Yeah. It's or else you won't do it. Right. What gets scheduled gets done. So, you know, in that regard, yeah. I got down to a 21 handicap. I'm probably sitting about 23 right now.

Marty: Yup. Yeah. Whenever you know your handicap, that's always good. And mine is actually just my swing in general. I have to play more. I used to play a ton when I was younger and I only get out last two years. I've only gotten out maybe a dozen times each year, which is nothing to. [35:38.2]

Kyle: Right

Marty: Kind of like, it's just like I get out there, then you get angry with yourself a little bit and then you just gotta remember it like, ah, you gotta play more if you really got to play well.

Kyle: Yeah. You can't expect that. You know, it's funny, the first, that first round of the season I tend to play pretty damn well, because I have no idea….

Marty: That's cause you forgot all your bad, bad habits.

Kyle: And you have no expectation, you know, it's not like.

Marty: That’s you.

Kyle: I've played all right, I played really good on Thursday. I played well and then like, all right, so Saturday I'm going to go out and, and play again and I should play well. And then you get into first, second, third team. You're like, shit, what happened? So yeah, when you start to set expectations, I think your ego gets involved and you can, you can screw up your day. [36:15.9]

Marty: Absolutely. Kyle, really appreciate having you tell everybody where they can find you online.

Kyle: Oh man, all over. So if I can give a quick shout, I did just start up that the beer muddy things podcast had Marty on.

Marty: Yeah.

Kyle: And we're doing all things craft beverage there. We are just into trying to give those folks and give those resources, you know, to, to spoke out from the middle, you know, say myself, but also the resources around us and connect everybody. You can find me at craftbreweryinsurance.com. There's also a number of other URLs that point and I kinda made it, you know, instead of just brewing but craft B V G I N S so you know, craftbeverageinsurance.com and made that shorter. I mean I'm out there on a, you can find me on Facebook and all that Twitter, but yeah, craftbeverageinsurance or craft brewing insurance is the spot. Hit me up, Kyle@craft brewing insurance.com I'm here. [37:09.6]

Marty: Awesome. Do you know, I appreciate it. Can wait to have a beer with you again in person and you know everybody, like I said, I'm bringing everybody on these podcasts and these interviews just to give some information. My note kind of gets immediate times, but I think it's important to know good people in whatever industry you're in. And Kyle is definitely one of those people, so I appreciate your time and I'll see you on the next episode.

Kyle: Right on buddy, I appreciate you man. Thanks for having me.

Marty: Thanks Kyle. [37:34.3]

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