From near death experiences to the devastation of homelessness, how and where do we find the will to overcome insurmountable odds? And when we do overcome these challenges, how do we pass that story of survival onto others? Life on the rocks is that place where these stories are heard from those who live to tell them. And now here is your host Kyle Miller.
(00:22): Welcome to today's show where today's guest shares, how we went from a tree broker on the west coast, barely being able to drive vehicles to losing 50 K on his second deal to calling hard money lenders and renegotiating deals because he can't get 'em sold to now running four companies and kicking ass in salt lake city. What's up guys, welcome to today's show. It's gonna be a little different from the last few that we've done. I'm actually sitting in here with my boy, Michael Burns out here in salt lake city, Utah, you should see the views at this place fricking amazing. This is a sweet ass pad man, but yes, bro. I'm sure you got some cool ass stories to go along with it though, dude, any. Yeah. Yeah. We all got stories stoked to share mine today. So welcome to my pad, dude. You see my Instagram videos and shit, and I know you love salt lake and the mountains and all that.
(01:14): So I'm glad to actually have you here and in the flesh, check it out and see what's up. Yeah, man. Awesome. So we were just chatting a few minutes, right before we, we started this thing and kind of like getting in the stories and I was, you know, I've heard some of your stuff before. I know as an entrepreneur, as building the companies, you have a couple companies going on. Yeah. You have like some great insight to bring to individuals so they could listen and maybe learn from your experiences, man. And, and so that's why I wanted to have you on there. I think you could provide great value to people and like they could really like dig in deep and kind of see what you're made about. Yeah, no, well, and I think, you know, in this Instagram world that we live in, everyone wants to share the wins and show the fucking, all the wins.
(01:57): You know, the Ferrari is the cars, the trips, the watches and all that shit. Yeah. And I think it, no one, a lot of people don't talk about the losses or the struggle because it's not sexy. Right. It's not that eye catching thing, but it's, you know, it's the reality of what it is. And you know, like we have our company's lifestyle now, but before we had our own companies, we went by the burns team homes and loans. Yeah. And our logo was the iceberg. Yeah. And I love that so much because you know, it's like, you've seen anyone who seen the poster online, whatever, but the iceberg it's like, no one sees the shit below the water. Right. They just see this beautiful iceberg above the water. Right. And like that's that's life. Right. That's man, you only see this little spot, you know, sitting above the water and everything's built on below it.
(02:41): You know, when you look at these skyscrapers, the what's underneath the foundation, like how I was actually in Aspen, Colorado last week and they're building this new building in there. But as you walk by, you can look down, you can kind of see, and you can do this in any town, any city and, and how deep they go to start building these foundations. Well, the foundations, you know, it's everything, but you, you can't, you know, like if you don't have a strong foundation, whatever you build on it is either, you know, the foundation's gonna make that or break it. So that's just one thing that, you know, I think that's cool. You're doing the show on the rocks and talking about the flip side of all that. Yeah. You know, the other thing is, is people see when someone comes up and all of a sudden they're, you know, getting notoriety or whatever, it's like, oh of this, guy's an overnight success.
(03:19): It's like, no, you didn't see fucking 20 years of eating shit. And like getting kicked in the Dick and just all the losses and stuff. Absolutely. And so I really vibe with that and I'm stoked to be on the show and you know, I've definitely got some losses we can talk about for sure, dude, man. So like, awesome. So tell me, I know you kind of alluded to it a little bit before, so we're talking about foundations. What it's built your foundation, man. How have you overcome some of, some of these obstacles that you've had? Dude? I think for me, if you were to ask me just my foundation in general where there's obstacles or not is gonna be your mindset, your mindset, continual self development is, is really my foundation. And then the relationships and the people you're spending your time around. Yeah. Because that's gonna your foundation for both for success.
(04:01): But also like when you're going through a hard time in a Rocky time, like a big part of that foundation is your mindset, the continual self development and the relationships that you have, you know? So like yeah. When times are good, it's nice to have those, but when a deal's going sideways or you got something that's not going well, what's your support system look like, like who are the people in your corner in that time? Cuz in my opinion, that's more important than who's on your team when you're fucking winning. Right. Absolutely. Cause when you're winning, everything's easy and it's all good and everything's smooth, you know? But like who's there when you're eating shit, who's there when you're losing, like who's, that's who, that's what I wanna see. Like what are those relationships like? Who's gonna be there when things aren't great. Absolutely. And I say this all the time, right?
(04:40): This Instagram world, I think, and you alluded to it a little bit. It is just put this picture of false sense of reality of what actual people do to become successful, to become this mindset, this winning mindset over this victim mindset, you know? Yeah. Well, there's a sense with that. There's a sense of entitlement, you know, it's like people, see, they see the success and they, but they want it now. And, and we, you know, when the world is the way that it is now and everything moves so quickly and it's like, oh I want dinner, Uber eats. I want the like everything's so quickly available success. Isn't really, there's gonna be some guys that hit it quick. But like success is a process. It's not something you just get. And I think a lot of people it's like, oh yeah, like we're in the real estate business.
(05:25): Right. I wanna start flipping houses like, oh, I wrote two offers. I haven't gotten a deal and made 50 grand. What the fuck? You know? Yeah. It's like, that's not how it works. And maybe this is a good segue into it. But like when me and my brother first started, it took us a year bro. And 94 offers to get our first deal. Like, I'll repeat that because when people ask me like, oh, Hey, we're like, there's not a fucking watering hole with all the deals. And it's like, you gotta be part of this secret club. Yeah. To like be able to go down to the watering hole and like that's where all the deals are at. And that's what all these new investors always ask me. It's like, oh dude, where do you get your deals? Or where'd your deal come where'd you get it?
(05:58): Where'd you get it? And it's like, yeah. You know, 10 years of building relationships and networking and all that stuff. But it took us a year, literally a full calendar year and writing 94 offers. So if you break it down, that's basically two offers a week, right? Yeah. Part-time, we're not doing it full-time but a year and 94 offers before we got our first deal and the deal didn't even come in on an offer, we wrote, it was just a wholesale deal that happened to come in. So we had been eating shit for a year, bro. But, but think about that, paying your due, thinking about putting that time in and the effort and the energy, how many deals did you analyze to finally? Oh, well I think we can get this or I think we can do this or I think we can do that.
(06:33): And then finally when that deal comes, you know, it's a deal because you already analyzed a hundred deals. Yeah. Right. And you could probably still screw that up. Oh dude. A hundred percent. Well, like I started green as green. I knew nothing about anything like home depots, the last, so you would've ever caught me going to like just not my jam at all. Right. You know, so I remember we like, so we plugged into the local, a real estate investors association and we would go to their, all their meetings. So they'd have a monthly meeting every month and then they'd have a couple lunches throughout the salt, greater salt lake area throughout the week. So we went to all of those and I was networking and networking and like meeting people, putting myself in an environment where, Hey, like, this is where real estate deals are happening.
(07:15): This is what I want to do. So like my first 10, every piece of that deal came from this group. But I'd been going to it for a year. Every quarter, they would have a seminar. So we would go to the seminar and we met this newer agent and he was like, new didn't know what he was doing. We were new. Didn't know what we were doing. So he had all the time in the world. So he was writing offers for us and comp and shit out. And he's probably looking like, he's learning as we're going. So like, we'd go to these houses, we'd walk it and look at it. And he's telling us, Hey, you know, this home remodeled could sell for 250,000. Right. And me and my brother like, oh dude, I bet that the rehabs 20 GS bro. And for the, the first 50 deals we looked at, the rehab was 20.
(07:57): Like we don't know it's up 20 grand sounds good. And that was back in 2011 when 20 grand would actually like do something, do something now it's like paint and carpet maybe. Yeah. but I remember we'd go to home Depot bro. And like we'd have a, we'd literally have like a, you know, a legal pad. Oh a bathtub's a hundred bucks. A toilet's 80 bucks. Like a vanity is 200 to $400. And we're literally going to home Depot aisle by aisle. Like this is how much shit costs. And then trying to figure out, oh, painters charge you a dollar 50 per square foot. Yep. Like, oh it costs 70 bucks to hang a door. Like it's a dollar for base and case installed. And we just started learning. Yep. How much different things cost. So then as we're walking these deals, you know, our first deal, I remember we wrote the offer, not our first deal, but software we ever wrote.
(08:41): I was like, what if they say yes, dude, fuck. Like almost hoping to get a no. Cause it's like, if they say yes, now we actually have to wholesale it or we gotta find the money. Right. But so nervous man. And then the reseller responds and it's like, what is this? An unwelcome joke. Yeah. And I was like, fuck, I'm still alive, dude. That wasn't that bad. No's not that bad of a thing to hear. Right. And that right there people are. So people are so paralyzed to hear no or a negative right. Experience that they won't even start. Yeah. So anyways, dude, we did that for like a year. Finally got a deal and then solely our numbers would get it better. And it's like, oh, everything's not 20 grand. And we started getting a little more comfortable with this formula that we're learning and the more information we're exposed to, we're getting, you know, different ways to break down deals.
(09:25): And so like our offers slowly started to get better and better because we truly understood the numbers. Yeah. And then after a year, really the universe just threw us up at layup deal. The way everything happen was fucking like crazy. The, the uni I always say the universe provides, right? Yeah. If we put our heart and soul into something and we want to see this happen, it's going to yeah. Give us what we're, what we're looking for. Yeah. Right. Well, I'll just tell you about this deal real quick. So it's a Friday night. So I'll rewind maybe like two weeks before this Friday, I'm talking about my brother and I were at one of the, like, they would've quarterly seminars. So anyways, me and my brother go and I'm networking, just putting in the work. Right? Networking, building relationships. I've been doing this for a year.
(10:10): At this point. People are starting to know me and there's this guy and his wife and he's over there just kind of being older guy, kind of Tim mid dude. And I went up to him. I noticed that. So I went up to him and said, Hey, I'm Mike, how's it going? You know, welcome. I haven't met you. It turns out he had just sold his business and he lived three hours, south salt lake and him and his wife are wanting to get into real estate. Just sold his business. He didn't wanna flip. He didn't really wanna do rentals, but he was interested in lending hard money. I never done a hard money deal. So I, because I'm in the mix, bro. I don't fucking put myself out there. I'm doing the work. I meet this guy. Build a relationship with him. Well, Hey, this is my brother.
(10:43): So I followed up with him. That's another key thing. Follow up. I followed up with him the following week and him and his wife were actually gonna be in salt lake. Cuz they had grandkids up here. Yeah. So Hey, I'd love to catch lunch with you guys. Get to meet you better. So I had this standing lunch appointment for like a week and a half on a Saturday afternoon. Yeah. So I'll go back to where I picked up Friday AF Friday night, dude, eight or nine at nine at night. Get a call from a guy that I also met at Celia. He was a wholeseller like, Hey man, I got this deal. Buyer fell through. Are you interested in? Yeah. Hell yeah. I'm interested. So he's like, cool. Can you meet me tomorrow morning at the property? Okay, awesome. I'll do it. He's like go meet him tomorrow morning at the property.
(11:18): And I take this guy's word on there's 18 inches of snow. It's similar to where you're staying right now. Yeah. Over in Highland park. Okay. Area. So like I can't see the yard. I can't see the roof. Dude. I take his word for everything. The ARV, the repair costs. Even like his suggestion of what he would do at the house. He's like, yeah. I even have a bid from a contractor. So I'm like right man. Cool. Yeah. We're definitely interested. He's like, well here's the deal. It needs to close Monday. And this is like Saturday morning. I've never done a deal dude. Like what? And I play it off like, oh yeah dude, let me let me, let me get back to you on that. Right. Thinking there's no fucking way I can do this. Right. So then we go to the lunch, it was already scheduled with these people sit down, me and my brother, we have the lunch and get to know these people and we get up, dude, we're getting up and leaving the lunch table.
(12:04): And there was just this moment, dude. And it was like, bro, like, are you gonna not say like spits now? I never. And it probably was as rough as like, I have a deal, as we're saying, and he looks at me like, dude, we just had lunch for an hour. Right. Fuck you do for brought it up. I'm like, I have a deal. And he's like, okay. I was like, do you wanna hear about it? And he's like, yeah. So we sit back down and I tell him the deal dude. And I literally tell him everything that the guy had told me. Yeah. Here's the AR V. This is what it's gonna cost rehab. I even have a bid from a contractor, you know? And I'm like, but here's the deal, Gary? How close Monday? And he looks at hi me. And he looks at his wife and he looks at me and I'm like, let me know.
(12:39): And he's like, all right. So anyways, he's like, we'll, we'll think about it and we'll call you back. And then like, we leave and I'm like, dude, I fucking butched that so bad. Right. So anyways, he calls me like two hours later. He is like, Hey Michael. So my wife and I talked it over and we're gonna take a chance on you and your brother we'll fund the deal on Monday. Wow. And dude, like I could pull that off today, but it would still be a few phone calls maybe. Right. Right. And that was our first deal ever. Right. So like a layup. Right. Just everything fell into place. But it fell into place because we had been doing the work for a year. Right. And striking out. But then boom, you know, something happened. It's amazing. Yeah. So that was our first deal. We ended up like, everything went wrong on it.
(13:14): With the contractor, had to fire him. He placed a faulty lean on the property and they hit me with like 30 grand to change orders. Like everything went wrong. Right. The market was moving up. We ended up making 24 grand and was like, hell yeah, dude, real. Estate's where it's at. And then like quit everything I was doing. And we were like full time, real estate. That's awesome. It's amazing how all that stuff just kind of lined together. You were able to make a little bit of money. You got your feet wet. You understood what it was gonna take now after dealing with all that crap. Yeah. Right. And now, now you're you're running that's yeah, dude. So that's the story of our first deal, but that's, that's sweet. It, it, it just goes show like just put the work in, right? Yeah. No matter what, if you can't the outcome coming, just keep working towards that goal progress.
(14:00): It's the journey. Not the destination. Yeah. The one deal. Wasn't it. Cuz if you hadn't been doing your year before, then you probably wouldn't able to been able to even talk remotely close as well to that investor then how you did it. Yeah. Well, and I will wouldn't have had like the coal seller wouldn't have called me the contractor who I met. He was kind of through that group too. Right. The title company that we still use today, I met her through that group. So like without showing up and just being there. Right. And being, I think this is another thing too, like being willing to be the new guy. Right? Like that's another thing with this instant gratification. Like no one wants to suck and no one wants to go through the fucking process of anything. They just want the results now because like that's this instant world that we live in.
(14:43): Yeah. So it's like, oh, what do you, I have to do, go do all that. Like I'm not gonna do that. Right. It's like, you're not above. Like if you think you're above the grind and doing the work, you're never gonna get there. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. So you made 24 grand on your first deal. Yeah. Right. That's way more than I made on my first deal. I can tell you that. And I did all the work and I was there and all that stuff. So all your deals must go great. Right? Oh yeah. They're like every single one of 'em easy peasy. Yeah. Just cranking out. Huh? Hundreds and thousands of dollars. Right. Dude. HGTV is not the only place where you can blow your budget by a hundred grand and still make 80 somehow. Right. Yeah. You know, that's that's in real life too.
(15:21): Not just TV. Yeah. Just kidding. Yeah, dude. So rolling into our second deal. We lost 50 grand. Oh Jesus. And then, so we flipped that first one and when we were probably three quarters of the way done with the first one, we took down this second flip that we had. And so at the time it was 20 ran on the Reno 20 grand on the Reno. Yeah. This one was a little more, it was but that like, yeah. So actually we did, we had no business doing this second deal, dude. Like at the time it was at like a $550,000 ARV. Yeah. Which in salt lake today that same, home's probably 1.2 million. Yeah. So like yeah, no business at all doing that on our second deal, the rehab was like 80 grand. Okay. Today that'd be about 140. Yeah. You know, like second deal.
(16:07): Yeah. Shouldn't be there. Right. But anyway, so we had, we had, we were almost closing on the first one we bought the second one. And then when we had the, with the same lender, no, we had a different guy finance that one and then we had the money that we rolled from the first one. Yeah. And then borrowed 50 K from my dad on the second one. Okay. And then, so why we had the second deal going? I mean, we got out of the first one we had the second one, we bought a couple more. So basically I, in this period of time where we had four houses at different stages, but starting with the second one and we, we we ended up having like four properties that we carried all winter long and I had hard money loans coming due from four different lenders on all four properties.
(16:50): Yep. It so like the six month loan was up. So every month dude, I'm calling up and having to renegotiate the heart, the terms on this hard money loan. Yeah. And like every single month with four different guys, plus like we have these homes that are completed and they're sitting on the market. Yeah. I didn't do price drops, you know, fast enough. And the back then it took like anywhere from 60 to 120 days to sell a house, not like two days, like it is now. Right. So anyways, this was an extreme, hard, extremely hard test. So we had this house that like, we can run the numbers and see like we're fucking losing money on this. Right. So you're new in the game. We literally dude, like we would turn all I know I'm bouncing all over, but just to kind of paint this picture, we would go to the house and like turn the heat down.
(17:35): Yeah. To like 50 degrees. Yeah. So it was warm enough for the pipes to not bust. Right. But like not running the heat cuz we didn't have the money for the utilities bro. Right. Like did not have the money for the utilities. So anyways, I've got, I've got these four properties, they're all done enlisted. Like we had contractor issues, but that doesn't really matter. So I've got this house and I think we're listed at like 575,000 or five 50. And I know we're losing 10 grand at that number and we're getting no showings. Yeah. So it's like we have to drop the price. Right. And trying to mentally go through the of, okay, so I'm gonna lose 10 grand if we sell it at list price and I'm talking about dropping the price even more. So if we do a $20,000 price drop, if we get full ask, we're losing 30 grand.
(18:20): Right. And that's assuming it sells and we don't have another two months of hard money. They're not gonna ask us for all this shit. No closing costs, all this stuff. Right. Right. And it's my I'm new in the business and I've got a hard money loan coming due every single month. The guys that Dick had who lent us the money. And I have this scenario going on with four properties at once. Right. So just going through that whole process, I remember we went to Maui and it was like in December, sometime and like my whole trip to Maui sucked bro, because I was just like thinking about it. So, so stressed outta my fucking mind. I owe my dad 50 grand dude. Like my dad's starting to sweat me for the money. Like yo, are you guys gonna sell a hot what's going on? I'm not fully telling him what's going on.
(18:59): Cause like the last thing I want to hear from my dad was like, fucking told you boys slow down. You're going too fast. You know? Like I, don't just not wanting to deal with that shit. So we would get a shit. We would get a call for a showing dude. And like I would drive over to the house, turn the heat back up, watch, sit across the street, watch the, watch the showing go down. And the second they left, dude blown up the realtor like, Hey, how'd the showing go? She's like, oh we're on our way to the next house. I know. But how'd to go like, just let 'em know if there's any adjustments. They'd like, we're happy to accommodate anything. They don't like about the home. Just send us an offer please like knee pads on, give us an offer. And then I'd get off the phone.
(19:35): I'd watch him leave and I'd go in and turn the heat back. And we did this bro, all winter long man. And you know, same thing. The, the, the hard money loan would be coming due and I'd know it's due and like three days and I called the guy up, Hey man, we're selling, haven't gone under contract, you know, and trying and negotiate like, dude, we don't have any money to like catch interest up right now. Right. Like, can we roll a point into it? Like what can you do to work with me? Yeah. Like when you're new in business, that's a hard fucking phone call. Oh, well, a lot of people won't even make that phone call and well, and I'll talk about that in a second, but that is a hard phone call to make under any circumstances. But when you're new and green in the business and like 25, yeah.
(20:13): That's a super tough call to make and I'm having to do it every month with four different dudes. Yeah. And two of these guys are assholes. Yeah. So side note with the, the thing, this guy, Gary, who was our first lender that I told you about, we had one of our third house that we were doing. So that one finally goes under contract and Gary was cool. So he didn't sweat us too much about going through the, the six month period. But I remember calling him up and I'm like, Hey Gary, like, here's the deal. We have an offer on the house. But you know, when we look at all the numbers, basically, I'm not gonna be able to pay you all your interest so I can get you your money back. And then I can also get you like say 12,000 of the 18,000 in interest.
(20:55): Yeah. But like, I don't have the difference to bring to the deal cuz all of my money is in this project and these other ones, I have no money to bring to closing. Can you work with me on it? And he said, you know what, Michael? He's like, I respect you so much for making this call. I know it's a hard call to make most people wouldn't make the call. And he said, we're good. And like, he was cool taking a short payoff. Right. So it, like, I made it clear, I'll get you all your money back. I was like, I'll pay you back down the road, like right. You know, I owe you essentially. And he said, you know what, Michael, like, I respect you more now than I ever. And I'm looking forward to doing more business in the future with you because I trust you now.
(21:31): Right. And I know how hard that call was to make. So he let me outta like six or seven grand in interest. And we were able to sell the house and got some money back. And then the other ones ended up selling. So we lost like 50 grand on the second deal, took me like six months to pay my dad back the 25 grand that we didn't get a at closing. Right. We lost 12 on the second one, we lost 10 on the third one. And we like broke even or made 10 grand on the fourth house. Yeah. So all of that was going, but you're getting better. Yeah. But all that's going on at one time. And like I said, we didn't have any money and like, this was my job now cuz I quit. My other thing I was doing. And so did my brother.
(22:06): So while all this is going on and we're like in survival mode, just doing everything that we can, we're like going and driving for dollars and putting notes on doors. Right? Yeah. Like, Hey, I'll buy this house cash. So during that pan we hit, during that span, we hit two wholesale deals for 20 grand each. Okay. And 40 G's came in and that's what got us through that period of time. Right. But going through that and, and doing it early on in my business and then getting onto the other side and realizing I made it through. Yeah. That was the biggest, best business lesson for me moving forward because now the level of confidence and trust I have with myself to be in a tough spot and know that I can grind it out and get through it. Like we went all winter long, bro, when it, when it's snowing outside and you're like, that's a long ass winter.
(22:52): We just had 11 inches yesterday. Yeah. And it was, yeah dude. So just the capacity that I had had at that point and the self confidence of like, I can get through this and if I, you know, like going through that situation, like it really allowed me to move forward, strong in my business. And then like when shit comes up in the future, it's like, dude, because I went through that and I had the capacity and I got through it. It's like, it takes a lot. Yeah. To put me in a situation where it stresses me out. Like, holy shit, this is like too much for me to mentally handle. Yeah. Because I go back to that point in time. I'm like, dude, if you fucking got through that and you know, so it was the hardest thing, but the money we lost compared to like what I gained through that experience, like did like the greatest thing that's ever happened in business.
(23:37): So when you're sitting there, right. So we all have a decision to make when, when we're there, how did you say pony up? Make these phone calls. I know you had to like, it's just how we're, but that thought goes through your head. Are you thinking like, life's gonna end, you have to go get another job or where were you thinking in those times, man? I mean, you did the right thing. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But like you, you there's, you get stuck in a dark place, you have 9 million thoughts running through your head. Yeah. You wanna take the easy way out. Are we gonna do the, my, I, I was in the army and my one of my guys that I was, I was with, he was a captain. He would always say, you wanna take the easy left or the hard.
(24:11): Right. And, and you know, and it's like it, the, the right thing to do is not easy. Yeah. You know, it's, it's hard. You have to put yourself on the line, you have to do what's right. And so like, I'm sure there's some well leading to go back, like leading up to that point in time. Like there was a lot of like, even though I was young, there was a lot of experience that had gone into the person I built myself in to be at that time. Yeah. So really leaning on a lot of that helped out tremendously in the back of my mind, I knew I had the support of my dad. Right. Which even though I know ever called him on it, like in the back of my mind, I knew like if shit gets super hairy, like dad will step in and, and fucking help us out.
(24:52): Never asked for it. But there was a peace of mind knowing that. And, but just like the self development and like just doing all the work and just all the stuff that I'd done leading up to that had built character in me. And before I was doing house flipping like inside sales. So I was really good on the phone and used to making calls and then before the tough calls. Yeah. And then before I did real estate, I was actually like a 10 99 sales rep, like outside sales rep for selling trees, dude. So I would literally get in my car and go on one to two week road trips all over the Western United States and Western Canada. And this territory I had yeah. Was zero customers. So I was cold calling people, selling fucking trees, bro. Like I would show up and be like, Hey, I had, I had a thing like this full of just pictures, like literally that I took with a camera and printed and put it in there.
(25:39): So I would show up at nurseries cold calling like, Hey, and I looked like I was 16 dude. And I was like, 21 people would be like, are even old enough to drive and I'd roll in and I'd say, hi, is the owner of this place or is the manager available? And they'd be like, yeah. Why like, oh, I'm with Leo Gentry nursery. Like I want to talk to him about like our product, you know? Right. So like doing that, like hundreds dude, maybe a thousand cold calls of doing that. So having the sales experience kind of got me used to like communicating with people and being comfortable with heart, like just uncomfortable situations and doing that. Right. But one thing that my dad always told me when I was young, he's like son, when you have a problem, you need to address it immediately.
(26:17): Because if you don't, it's gonna sit in fester and it's gonna make things worse for you. And it's gonna make things worse for the party on the other side. Yep. And that was one thing always leaned on. And, and I just had an understanding of like sales and knowing like when I'd have clients and I knew there was a problem coming and they weren't aware of it instead of waiting for them to find out, I'd pick up the phone and I'd call 'em right. Hey, we were short 12 of those trees, like, like 12 of 'em aren't gonna be shown up. So I just kind of had got used to addressing things ahead of time. Yeah. So having all that experience really helped understand number one, I, it will make it worse if I wait, but also I had had the experience before that people appreciate you being up front and honest.
(26:56): Yeah. And so I knew I can lean on my integrity and I can show up and be honest with these people. And just, and I would tell 'em that like, Hey, I don't have the best news for you today, but like, I'm, I don't know what else to do. I'm calling you. And I'm just telling you what's going on. And I would tell these people, if you wanna come look at the house, like if there's anything I could do, I'm trying to work with you on this. Yep. And I would just put the relationship first and I would just be open and honest and fucking like, what else is there really to do, dude? Like, yeah. Like I'm literally doing the best that I, and all these people I was dealing with, even though some of the guys that were sweating us, like at the end of the day, they, you, can't not respect someone in that spot making the phone call. Right. But then also when I would sit and think about it, I would also realize, well, these guys need me to perform too. Yeah. So I started to almost like I had the idea that it's the reality is if they take the house from you, I'm gonna lose this money, but it's still a problem for them. Yeah. So if I can just communicate and, and let them know a problem, but I'm doing my best to handle it. Yeah. They don't wanna fucking deal with what I'm dealing with. Yeah. That's why they're lending. So that gave me little bit of peace of mind. I slowly started understanding like, these guys need me to execute. They need me to perform. Yeah. Even though I have money in the deal, still need me to do the deal. So all of that really helped me out a bunch with like doing that.
(28:08): There's another thing that came to mind, but I it'll come back. Yeah. It's so important. And it's, and in what I always call, it's called managing the expectations. And if we can get in front of it and we can clearly communicate what's gonna happen and how we're working towards and you can't fault anybody for that. Yeah. You can. You're just kind of like, okay. I mean, if somebody comes to me with, with an issue and then they come to me and say, Hey, this is how we're handling that issue. And this is the plan moving forward. You've already thought about it. You've already put the effort into it. And now you got a good plan. Maybe then I might be able to say, well, maybe try this or do this. Or they're they're in that game together with you. Yeah. Well, and I think when anyone's invest staying money, right.
(28:46): Whether it's me putting money into my deals, like I do some hard money lending. Like I've invested in businesses when I'm looking at it. Like I'm looking at what's the opportunity, but for me I'm more like, who's this person I'm gonna be investing with. Right. And I'm looking at them and yeah, I wanna make money. But the first thing is like return of my capital, not return on my capital, but, and also like, who is this individual? And the response that I would get with these calls, you know, it's like the guys weren't happy, but I could also feel the feedback from them of like, I trust this guy because he is being honest with me. Yeah. And I just, I could kind of sense on that. And I, and, and it was really a huge, such a huge learning thing because it was like information of what my dad had always told me.
(29:28): So anyways, but one big thing, what I was telling you, I forgot when I was going through this, you know, I had walked away from my, my plant brokering business and I was in it. And I just kept saying like, dude, fucking, this is what I'm doing, bro. Like, what am I gonna fucking, like, I can't go back to that. I'm not gonna get a job. So I would literally say, plan B is reinforcing plan a like, this is what I'm fucking doing. Plan B. Right. Figure is reinforcing plan a period. This is what we're doing. So we had a couple wholesale deals come through, cuz we were out there not looking our wounds. We were out there doing shit, hustling, keep showing up. And then what was cool too, is a lot of the community that we were networking with. They saw these deals that we had.
(30:06): And you know, I was showing people to 'em and trying to market 'em and then people were seeing these deals going sideways. Yeah. And they're seeing like me and my brother, like having a tough time, but we rode out of that motherfucker too. Yeah. So it almost helped build my yeah. My reputation a little bit, bit as credibility. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, oh God, those guys. Yeah, those guys, we know they lost money on those deals and they still did it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the thing with these is you don't see the lessons while you're in. 'em Like you're in it. It sucks and you're eating shit and you're just like, please dude, like, like, God, let like, just help me out here. I want out dude, like uncle, I get like, right, right. And you so either way. Yeah. When you get through 'em and you can look back, it's usually I've found that those hardest times are our biggest lessons.
(30:48): If you can look at it from that perspective. Yeah. And that's again, a personal accountability and a mindset thing. You're either gonna be a little victim bitch, like oh, you know, and that's one comment that I would get from so many people like, dude, you're still gonna flip you're you're still flipping. Like you're gonna, like, people were almost surprised that we were staying in the business. Like, well, what am I gonna quit? Like, yeah. Right. And when so many people like, oh God, we lost money on that. Doesn't work. That doesn't work. And that was a big eye opening thing to me where I almost knew I had an advantage over the average dude, when people would legitimately question like that, I'm not quitting and I'm staying in the business. Right. I knew like I I'm I'm it was a separator that I could see.
(31:28): Like I'm different from these guys cuz this fucking dude just told me he would've quit if he was in my spot. Yeah. So then my self confidence even Rose A. Little bit more because I'm like, these are my competition. And like I'm not a fucking quitter and this guy obviously is, but I, but if you, how, what do you think the the percentage of population out there that would just quit out of like everybody that you talk to. Yeah. I think it depends. I think there's different levels of it, but I, I think it's probably the 80 20 rule. Yeah. Yeah. Like most people wouldn't have gone past five offers. And so if you take a, like a group would've fallen off at five, another group would've fallen off at 20. Yeah. A huge group would've fallen off at 50. Yeah. And I think maybe 5% of people would've kept going.
(32:09): Yeah. After they had no on 50 offers, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then with those houses, like, dude, it would've been way easier to be like, I'm, I'm already losing this on this deal. Like, fuck it. I should just walk up. Tell the guy, sorry dude. I don't know what to do. Yeah. And just bitched out on it. Yeah. I think a lot of people, I would've done that too. Yeah. You know? No, I, I literally had this conversation with one of my lenders the other day he was telling me he lend money on a, on a deal and the guy was gonna do a development deal, a couple 90 acres or something like that. And they went through, they, they started getting the numbers for everything. I think they flipped the house and realized that the land on it, they weren't gonna make any money.
(32:46): So they said, here you take back. And they just walked away from it. Yeah. Like crazy. They signed up for the whole deal. They said they were committed. They were gonna do X, Y, Z, and then just turned around, walk away from it because they didn't feel like they were gonna make enough money on it. Yeah. Or make any money on it. Yeah. Well, and that's just such a short sided thing. It's like, yeah. You just, maybe you dodged a bullet on the deal. Maybe not, but right. You just burned a whole relationship, not one multiple. So, so like the relationships are now burned. Yeah. But now you, the integrity that you just lost with yourself cuz you know, you're a piece of shit, you know, your word's not worth any. Yeah. So like now you're burning relationships. Not only with outside people, but with yourself.
(33:23): Yeah. Your confidence is gonna come down and that's gonna be a downward. You can't feel good about that. No. And you know, for me, core values and relationships is what I've built my business on. Yeah. And like there's been, there's been deals dude, where I committed to a deal with maybe a wholesaler or something. And then I go see it or I realize we have a potential losing money on this and I'll still close on it cuz I'm not gonna my reputation and my relationship's not worth 10 grand or whatever it is I'm trying to avoid losing. Right. And I think there's a character piece there, but there's also being shortsighted. If you're gonna be in business and an entrepreneur dude, like you can't be shortsighted. And, and here's the other thing, like I think there's so many people, people out there that are actually in, in the business that are doing deals and they they're really stingy.
(34:06): They're really tight. They hold everything close. They don't wanna share anything. Yeah. Like this is getting more into a little bit if you're getting into that real estate game, but like your, your hard money guys, you're those guys are your partners. They wanna see you win. Those guys want, are in the deal with you to get other. Yeah. And if you're in the very beginning, you're gonna pay a little bit more up front to make all that stuff happen. Right. That's just the way the game's gonna get played. But I had a deal come to me a couple weeks ago and it was through a realtor and I didn't have a relationship with this realtor yet. And she's a big player in town and they're like how we can do this deal. This is the most, the seller will come down on the deal. And I go, you know, it's not a deal that I like, but I'm gonna do it. Right. And so I do the deal. I close on it. When I said I was gonna close on it. There were some title issues. Yeah. That they had to clear up as soon it was, as soon as it was done, boom, I closed. So now I'm, I'm building that respect that, oh, he's gonna do what he says he's gonna to do. Yeah. And then it gets we get through the deal. It actually lists they're taking pictures of it tomorrow. So that's gonna go on the market. But a week and a half ago they call me out and say, Hey, and I, I I'll probably make, I don't know, 20 grand on that deal. Right. Not a deal that I, I would've done every day, but I'll make 20.
(35:18): The next one they brought me I'll turn around. I'll make 80 on. Yeah. But I did that deal so I could get in, I could get my foot in the door. Yeah. Right. I took less up front because I'm not looking at just today. Yeah. And I know if you're in the beginning, you, you know, you might not be able to do that. But I mean just as much as you can get the experience, but got my foot in, she knows I'm gonna do it now. Now she's on the phone sending me more deals. Yeah. Right. Because now we're getting that stuff done and it just builds. And I'm looking at those relationships for 10 years from now, 15 years from now. Well dude, like I, through business, what I've realized is people's name and their word and their reputation and their ethics are for sale.
(35:57): One of my biggest gifts too, is I grew up in a small town and my dad had a business there. So people who are from a small town are a little bit different and they're a little bit more genuine. And I think the core values matter a little bit more to them. Right. And I don't know why that is. I just call it small town. But you have some of that too. And for me, if you're, if you have a business and a smaller or town for 25 years, you can't be a piece of shit. Right? Like you don't have a business word will travel quick. I that's just one thing that I noticed relationships are cared for a little bit more and your name and your word means a little bit more from people who are from a smaller town like that. And just growing up in that environment with my dad and like, again, he's, you know, there's a few things he told me that stuck with me, but another one was like your name and your word.
(36:39): Yeah. All you have, son is your name and your word, you know? And that was a big deal to me. So like when I come and I'm in salt lake a bigger, and I'm doing all these deals and interacting with all, you know, all these different people. It's it's very, it's been very clear to me that my level of integrity and ethics is higher than the average dude. So that a skillset that I have, and it's a strength that I have that is like, my name means something. My relationships mean something. My word means something. And if I know I'm experiencing this shit, dealing with other people, they don't give a fuck about they'll burn a relationship to make it an extra two grand or whatever. Right. I realize if I'm having this experience and other people are having that experience too. So if the people who are having those experiences, if they're also dealing with me, I'm gonna stand out because I do what I say I'm gonna do.
(37:24): Right. I'm a straight shooter. There's no bullshit. There's no games. There's no bait and switch. Right. Like I make it really clear that the relationship's what's important to me. So I know that that's a strength that I have in building the relationships. And that just gives me more confidence in business. Absolutely. And it's been interesting to see too, as the market in Utah, we're the most competitive market out there right now. We're rated number one this year in the country. And it's even these relationships that I've had with guys over the last three, four years who used to call me first with deals. It's like now they used to be like, give me, like, instead of calling me first and it was like, oh, Hey heads up, do we're gonna send this deal out. And then now it's nothing. It's just the relationship. Doesn't matter.
(38:03): Cause they'd rather make an extra two grand or five grand on a wholesale deal. Yeah. And it's just like, I'm gonna remember that. And like, I'm gonna be here in five years when all these other idiots aren't here in five years. And I had a guy say to me, one time, he called me with this deal. And like, to this day, I still can't like, like the way that I am, I couldn't never comprehend this, but I didn't really get along with this dude too. Well, like I don't like the way they do business, but he calls me with a deal and he's played this game with me like two or three times before and like ends up selling to someone else. So he calls me with this deal. I'm like, yeah, dude, I, I, I can do a deal, but here here's the deal, man. The last two times you've called me. You play these fucking games. I tell you, I'll give you your price. And then, oh, you call me back. And then you tell me I need to pay more. And I, I'm not doing that bullshit with you. He wanted me to go to toll, which is an hour out there an hour back the following morning. And I needed to close two, like a day after that. So I need closing two days. I'm like, I'm willing to go look at it, but I we're making a deal tonight. So get your partner, whoever else, like I'm removing all his, yeah. All his shit from people pulling it off, get him on the phone so that he calls me, tells partner the same thing. I don't like the way you guys fucking operate. I like we can do a deal tonight.
(39:08): And that's what it is. And then I just need to walk through five minutes in the morning and I'm good. So they're like, cool. I get there the next morning. And there's another fucking guy there to walk the house. And I'm like already shaking my head. These guys are unbelievable. So anyways, walk the house I call him. I'm like, Hey man, I'm good to go. And he's like, oh, well dude, we, this other guy is willing to pay more. And I was like, we had a fucking deal, bro. What do you mean? Like, this is exactly the shit you pull. I told you this last night. Yeah. We had a deal. And this guy, literally withouts tipping a beat tells me that's the deal we had yesterday. I would bro. Like I, number one, I could never operate that way, but I would be so terrified that if my dad caught wind into that, he would fly out here and beat the living shit outta me.
(39:49): And I was just like mind blowing, dude. Fuck you. Don't ever call me again. And when you're not in business and a few years remember of this fucking conversation, cause it's only a matter of time for you. It's only a matter of time. And I haven't seen a deal from him for, I don't even know. I don't even know if he's slowed down. Yeah. But I couldn't comprehend him. That's that's the deal we had yesterday. I was just like, God. But anyway, as I continued down my road in business and spend money on masterminds, like I met you at the D group and yeah. Put myself in, in other environments where guys are just operating at a different level. I really start to see how that's a huge advantage in business. Cuz people see it. Yeah. So yeah. Oh yeah. Definitely. Dude, man, I appreciate you sharing me these stories, man.
(40:31): There's like Doug out. Yeah. Doug. I, you look so now now let, let's, let's finish this cause I know all the shit you're killing it at right now, right? Yeah. Yeah. You have a real estate agency, right? Yeah. We got a real estate brokerage. You got a brokerage. You have a you're a lender. Yeah. So we got a real estate off at BT brokerage and a mortgage brokerage, both. So we're doing our own business. And then now we're recruiting realtors and loan officers to hang their license at our place. Nice. And so all this is stem from selling trees and you're like wanting a better life. Right. That's what you wanted and just keep building and keep stacking. And then, and then the progression, have you ever thought, like, this is what I, I think some people think too, they think that you're successful.
(41:12): Do you think you're successful? No man. And I think one thing as, as they're, as the spider sitting in the garage, right. I think success is a state of mind and a state of being. So it's like, you know, lifestyles our brand. And I remember one month I made 200 grand in a month. Right. Net. Right. Everything should be fucking awesome. Right. Right. And like my wife hadn't been home for 10 days and we were staring divorced in the face and I didn't give a fuck about that money. Cause I'm like, who cares? Right. Right. And my wife recently, you know, like we're having the best, you know, we're multiple seven figures having, having like really good last couple years and like everything's awesome going well. And like my wife had a really made that, you know? Yeah. Had a fucking brain tumor that we found out about in October.
(41:56): Right. I can tell you, dude, the Rolex watches the big house, like all the money, all the deals. Like none of that matters when something like that happens, it looks like shifts, everything super fast. So, you know, I really focus on the lifestyle thing. You know, it's like not only the money, but you got your family life. Yeah. Your social circle, your health and fitness, your spiritual and, and the experiences. And stuff too, but yeah, dude, things are going good, man. And we're just trying to keep doing more and, and get better. And we spend a lot of time and effort, you know, being in groups and that's how I meet guys like you and just building relationships. What, like, that's the foundation of everything I'm doing is building relationships and things are working out. So for that's what you gotta do, man. That's what you're out to do.
(42:36): Hey, I appreciate you coming on today and sharing this kick ass story, dude, dude, I hope I hope some of you guys will take some good lessons out of this. Just keep putting in the work guys, keep putting in the work. It'll show up, even though it doesn't show up like today or tomorrow, or maybe next week, maybe you gotta go a year and 94 offers to make that shit happen the way you want it to happen, or at least get your foot in the door, but just keep putting out that effort, commit to it, make it happen. And the universe will provide you with what you want. So plan said, man, plan B is reinforcing plan a bro. There you go. I love it. I love it. Thank you guys. Have a good one.
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