Find Out The Biggest Lie Guroobs are Telling You About Podcasting

Find Out The Biggest Lie Guroobs are Telling You About Podcasting

Your information is 100% secure and will never be shared by anyone.

Your information is 100% secure and will never be shared by anyone.

Ever since you’ve started your practice, you’ve probably been doing similar things: Treating patients, working on the business and expanding your business and chiropractic skills.

All of that’s great, but it won’t get you to the next level. If you want to consistently fill your practice, you need to understand the underlying dynamics of why practices succeed or fail.

Today, Dr. Michael Massey and Rob Pape stop by. After years of experience in different fields of business and practice, they’ve identified what makes practices “tick”.

Listen now if you’re ready to leverage the underlying patterns of business and leverage them so you can have sustainable success–NOT a short-lived practice that perishes in a few months.

Show highlights include:

  • How running your business the right way is like paying taxes–and why that’s a good thing. (7:06)
  • Why never to apologize for “doing the right thing” (this will not only make you happier, but help you get paid the money you deserve). (16:27)
  • How bending the rules to make more money can kill your practice in the long-term… even if you profit in the short-term. (9:20)
  • The biggest financial frustration chiropractors face–and how to solve it and take your mind off those worries. (13:24)

As of July 1st, we closed the Chiropractic Success Academy for a few months, but the good news is you can join the waitlist notified when we reopen it. Just sign up for the list here:

Read Full Transcript

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Kevin: Alright. Welcome to another episode. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and today I'm excited to do our first interview with two people at the same time. I've got Dr. Michael Massey and Dr. Rob Pape. If Dr. Rob Pape sounds familiar, he was on an episode not that long ago, where we had a great chat. Today, I brought both of them on because, you know frankly, they've been doing so much for the profession and doing a ton in regards to the basics of getting the practice going and admin and billing and documentation, all the stuff and then Rob's done a ton clinically as well. they both speak in front of folks. [0:01:00.3]

They're both a big part of the Forward Thinking Chiropractic Alliance. So I wanted to get them on because they are working on something that's very exciting called The Practice Mechanics and we'll dive into some of the information as we chat. I have become friends with both of them through some of the travels and some of the online engagement that we have had and so it's been fun to grow with them over the last couple of years. I'm really excited to have them both on the show. Before we do that, I want to let you know that actually Dr. Bobby Maybee and I, we have a four-part video series coming out in September. So video one is going to be, on September 26th it's going to come out and then we'll have four total over about a 10-day period of time and each one is going to give you a lot of action to really take into consideration and implement into your practice and your life. Video one, I talk about what I think it takes to be a thriving chiropractor. [0:02:02.5]

I also talk about the four freedoms and how we can try to achieve freedom in time, money, purpose and relationships. Then I also talk about how you can start to actually take action without just thinking about it and talking about it, but actually doing it and what kind of the blueprint for me has been to really take action and push the envelope whether its in practice, in my life or doing certain things like, you know, launching this podcast a couple of years ago or public speaking or writing a book, things of that nature. So I'm going to dive into that in video one. Video two, we break down the audience builder. This has really become the essence of what I work one-on-one with chiropractors and also inside of the Chiropractic Success Academy and we break down how to really get a clearly defined audience and then a clearly defined message through that. [0:03:01.6]

I go through the whole thing with a whiteboard. There's going to be downloads you can use to go through this yourself. We really give you a lot of action-packed items in video two. Video three - we outline the success path of what I think, what we think is going to be that blueprint for that thriving chiropractor and how you can do that. So that's in video three. Video four, we try to put it all together for you. Register for that. It's free videos. All you need to do is go to If you go there, you can register for that and you'll get that email to you and be able to see video one when it comes out, video two when it comes out and so on. Check those out. It's going to be a lot of good information in there. We are excited. We did these videos professionally, professional videographer and the whole nine yards. It kind of goes back to what I was saying about the blueprint for me of being able to push that envelope and have the confidence to do certain things that are outside my wheel house. That was one of them. Teleprompter and the whole nine yards. [0:04:08.8]

Really spent a lot of time putting that together. It was a lot of effort. I think you'll enjoy it. Register for that and without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Michael Massey and Dr. Rob Pape.

Alright. Welcome to the show. We have got our first one where we have got multiple guests at the same time. We're fortunate enough to have Dr. Michael Massey and Dr. Rob Pape on the line. Not that long ago, we had Rob on. We had a good time chatting and so we wanted to get the two of these gentleman together because we have got a lot of good information to dive through and they're working together on some exciting stuff. So before we get into the meat and potatoes of it, introduce yourselves since it's the first time you've been on our podcast, Dr. Massey, and we'll go from there.

Michael: Sure. My name's Michael Massey. I practice in Athens, Tennessee, pushing 30 years in practice now, certified procedural coder and do some other stuff, expert witness work and things like that. My forte is the boring stuff - you know, documentation coding, you know, risk management and that kind of thing, but it's stuff people need and somehow I found a way to enjoy it. [0:05:11.0]

Kevin: Must be a glutton for punishment.

Michael: Yes. Someone has to be.

Kevin: Rob, you're in New York this particular week and we talked about that on our last time we were on this show. You're back and forth, bicoastal. How's everything going since we last spoke?

Rob: It's going really well. It's going really well. It's going really well. We're working hard and we're getting a lot done these days and the travel is fun but I don’t recommend it for everyone.

Kevin: It's not for everybody. That's for sure.

Rob: It's not for everyone. People have been asking me about it, and they're like, "How do you do that?" And I'm like, "Well…"

Kevin: I don’t even …

Rob: That's a long conversation.

Kevin: I don’t even like to travel between my two practices, and they're about an hour away.

Rob: Yeah. It's the time zone thing, mostly. If you change the time zone, it's where the problem lies.

Kevin: It is. Alright. So, Mike, you kind of touched on it, the boring stuff. I think sometimes that's where the gold lies and I've talked to a lot of chiropractors and you know, everything is shiny object of you know, marketing and new patients and all those things but unfortunately, we're seeing a huge issue in the profession of not getting the basics right first and they try to build this house on quick sand and it just doesn’t work. It may work for a little bit, but it comes back to get you. What are your thoughts on that and then we'll just dive into some specific topics?

Mike: Oh, I completely agree, and there's probably a lot of reasons for that. I mean, number one is it's not an emphasis in school. Once people get out they either learn it from other people who have learned bad habits or who have given bad advice or who have skirted along carefully and not really done exactly what they should to be compliant and comfortable, etc. Also, you know, we're clinicians and clinical stuff is what we work on most, you know, so the other stuff is sort of a secondary interest to us until we get out in business and then we become business owners and we have to actually do these things. We learn, you know, trial by fire a lot of the times. [0:07:05.5]

Kevin: Yeah. You know, I've actually come up with the analogy recently - when you're talking about certain things like notes and obviously coding, the things that we have to do, it's almost like having to pay taxes, right? The money comes in and you can do stuff with it, but then when you have to write the check to the IRS, it doesn’t move the needle in your life and it sucks and you hate it, but you have to do it.

Mike: Right.

Kevin: And it's the same thing with some of the things in practice, where it's like, okay, yeah, you know, you love to treat patients or maybe you like to network and grow your practice, and having to do notes and having to do coding doesn’t move the needle in the sense of a lot of things, but you have to do it.

Mike: Exactly.

Kevin: And just like the paying the taxes, if you're going to have to do it, you really have to do it the right way. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are not doing the notes and the coding the right way, and that's a problem. [0:08:00.8]

Mike: That's true and just like paying your taxes, I always have heard it spun the other way, that you should celebrate when you have to pay taxes - that means you made money. I think when it comes down to coding and billing and documentation, you should kind of celebrate that or else, you know, if you didn't have people coming in the door, you wouldn’t have that work to do. I know it's a glass half full, half empty kind of thing, but it's really what I kind of teach people, that it's not a chore. It shouldn't be a chore. It should be almost a, you know, celebration is probably a strong word, but it is, you know, it's something you should be glad you're doing as opposed to sitting there looking out the window.

Kevin: I know you both have a really good kind of pulse of the profession. Rob, I know you speak a lot out in the West Coast and you just, you both are just super involved online and offline. What are some of the things that you're noticing in this realm, Rob?

Rob: Well, we're noticing that people are, they're a little afraid because they don’t have the right information oftentimes, and they almost hamstring themselves in practice one way or the other. They are either too afraid to step out or they're too bold and they don’t understand why they're risking something. [0:09:10.1]
For chiropractors who are trying to follow the rules and do it right, they're up against a backdrop or market where there are so many people who, they're willing to bend or break the rules or just completely ignore them that they're really caught between a rock and a hard place.

Kevin; Would you say, Rob, that it definitely can be hard to follow the rules?

Rob: Well, if you don’t know them, it's impossible. Right? And there's so much information online where you're getting half the story and then some bad advice.

Kevin: Yep.

Rob: So if you don’t know them, then you can't follow them, and if you have any sort of risk aversion, you're just going to stay in a very small corner, and if you know them but you don’t care about them, well, you can probably do really well for a short period of time, but that's going to catch up with you.

Kevin: That makes sense and I think what happens, too, is maybe they just say well everybody is doing it that way. [0:10:18.7]

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. So we see a lot of people who, they're getting frustrated in their practices because the guy down the road is willing to bend and break the rules and they get, they lose patients because of it.

Kevin: Yeah. It's like we see online all the time, it's like, oh you get so, you know a chiropractor talks about the stories of the patient coming in and the patient says, "Oh, well my other chiropractor didn't charge me the copay."

Rob: Exactly.

Kevin: That's frustrating. It's super frustrating.

Rob: Yeah and if you're the patient, you have to look at it from the patient's point of view … you know, people are counting their pennies these days. Our patients are mostly not rich people. Right? [0:11:03.2]

So, for most chiropractors out there, they're dealing with regular folk. And the patient is on a budget and if the offerings between two different offices are the same or indistinguishable, if there's nothing that makes one so clearly better and obviously more valuable than the other, why wouldn't you go to the office where they don’t charge you a copay?

Kevin: Yep. Because you've got to realize, from their perspective, the patient's perspective, one is they don’t really know all the rules and laws. They can't comprehend that you can't waive a copay ethically and legally in a lot of cases. Right? They just can't comprehend that and two…

Rob: And they don’t care.

Kevin: I was going to say, and two - they don’t care.

Rob: Why should they care?

Kevin: It's not their concern.

Rob: Right. They ain't going to jail. They won't have the IRS coming down on them. They don’t have the insurance companies coming down on them. [0:12:01.1]

They're just, they just want to feel better and spend the least amount of money doing it and unless you separate yourself and show them that you are worth the money, then you've lost them.

Kevin: Okay. Perfect. So I talked to a lot of chiropractors and obviously, it's marketing, it's business that gets a lot of the attention, and that's what I talk a lot about but when I do have one-on-one calls with chiropractors, I discuss how important the foundation is of their business and this lends itself to that. Mike, with that being said, if you, you know, you're going to layer on good marketing and business and that stuff, what are you seeing from the chiropractor that's got you concerned the most as it pertains to some of what we're just chatting about now, getting the basics down right?

Mike: I mean, basics, they're not starting off on the right foot. Their documentation is kind of shoddy. Their general understanding of how to proceed with if they're going to deal with insurance carriers is not so great, and if they're deciding they're going to be cash, they don’t really know always how to handle a cash patient, and make it appropriate, make their billing appropriate and their collections appropriate for those people. [0:13:21.1]

That's the biggest frustration, I think, is just getting off on the wrong foot. Then like you said before, you alluded to before, it's the shiny object on the horizon. They see people who seem successful, and so they'll kind of reach out to them sometimes and find out what has made them so successful, and they'll find out that they're walking a grey area, they're nibbling off the edges of what's right and what's wrong. And you know, we have a propensity within our profession it seems like to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. They're willing to take that risk that they're doing something wrong long enough that even if they do get busted, they've made enough money to pay the penalty. You know? That's the philosophy of some of these people and it's really kind of scary and concerning, and that's kind of my thing is how we're being led and who we're looking to as authority and you know, to get our information and our who to design ourselves after, that kind of thing. [0:14:12.0]

Kevin: Okay. So I want to kind of bifurcate this into two things now. I'm going to start with you, Mike, and then the second part will go to you, Rob. I feel like, and there may be more to this, but for me, I feel like there might be a couple of things at hand here. One is ignorance, not understanding all the different things. Like so, not understanding that if you've got that patient that's got in network deductible now - where it used to be that $30 copay, now it's a deductible, you're down coding because you feel bad that now the charges added up to $61 instead of the $30, so essentially it's double cost for that. Then you and I will talk about that, Mike, in a second. Then the other path is they know the rules. [0:15:00.7]

They know what should be done but they don’t have the confidence in doing it the right way and actually being able to grow a practice, and so Rob, we'll kind of talk about that in a second. So let's go back to that first one where just that ignorance level or you know, it's different Medicare versus auto insurance versus the states are different. There's all these different things. So can you touch on that a little bit? It's just that confusion and not understanding it all?

Mike: Yeah, I mean - it comes back to things we'll say over and over again and it's confidence and competence. When you don’t know, you don’t know. You don’t know how to proceed if you're not comfortable with what you're doing. Also if you don’t have confidence in the service that you're delivering, that's quality service and that you are justified in what you bill, then you're going to tiptoe around and you're going to make excuses and apologies to patients for what you're actually trying to collect from them, or you're just going to cut things in a way to keep everything uniform because you're afraid, your competence level is so low that you're afraid you're going to run the patient off or whatever. [0:16:01.7]

Patients are savvy. Patients understand what they're getting and if they're getting a quality service and getting good results, they're willing to pay whatever it takes most of the time. I mean, there are conditions somewhat if you're dealing with insurance plans to focus on what's on the insurance plan and what doctors are on my panel and what's the copay, when, and all that kind of thing. But they also know most of the time that when it's time to pay, they got to pay. So, that's part of it too, is that doctors don’t realize it, they feel almost apologetic for doing the right thing when patients kind of expect you to do the right thing.

Kevin: And that kind of goes back to, you know, having that clinical competence, like you mentioned, and knowing that you're good and you've done a lot of work to become a good chiropractor and that's a huge part of it and then also communication skills and being able to communicate and having your staff communicate with that patient on how the insurance is working and things of that nature.

Mike: Right. Patient communication, patient education I think are not emphasized enough, especially early on and even people that have been out there a long time don’t explain things the way they should from the clinical side or the administrative side and that would solve a lot of things if they did that well on the front end. [0:17:12.8]

Kevin: Or think about how tough it is - I think it doesn’t get said enough but let's say you get that patient that comes in, in network insurance, has an acute issue. You treat them a couple of times a week for a few weeks or whatever. They're completely good. They're feeling 100% functional. Everything is good. You discharge them from that treatment plan, but they want to come in once a month, but when they come in the next few times, they're 100%. Right? How do you communicate to that patient that that may not be an insurance visit?

Mike: Well, that's the challenge too, and a lot of people try to sneak that one under the rug as they go ahead and file it anyway. But those who are compliant tend to do a good job of separating those things and reminding the patient that we're not fixing anything. We only get paid for fixing things. It's on you - unfortunately, this is a crisis management kind of policy. [0:18:01.6]

It's not about wellness and prevention, and so it's on you to understand that if you're going to do wellness and prevention, that's very commendable, but it's also going to be at your expense. Again, and don’t apologize for it. People like, they'd rather spend a little bit of money now than to save for a lot of money being spent later.

Kevin: Perfect. So yeah, it's about understanding it and then obviously some of the confidence. So let's touch on that, Rob, a little bit. What are some of your thoughts on having the confidence level and what it can do to achieve to be able to run this the right way and still be super successful?

Rob: Well, there's - and we talked about this and we talked about this the last time. There's so many hats you have to wear as a chiropractor. Right? We have at least five different jobs. Mike and I are focusing on the administrative and risk management aspects, and then to some extent the clinical aspect. From our standpoint, the clinical aspect, what we see is that there's people who are struggling run to one of two camps. [0:19:01.0]

They either run to the hard core evidence based side of things, which is where we'd prefer they ran, honestly. But there's an extremism there that is also problematic. Most of what we do with patients after a certain point becomes sort of visit by visit analysis. We need to be able to assess people ongoing. Right? The evidence based world gives us a clue at how to do that, at least to start out with, but it doesn't … it's a little bit cookie cutter. And it doesn’t help us to actually manage - if 10 people come in with the same condition, they might have 10 different diagnoses really and 10 different treatment plans, and the same person might have a different treatment approach from visit to visit if you understand the concepts of how this stuff works. We see that extreme, where people are just cookie cuttering it, and then we see the other extreme, where people run to the what we call the philosophy based, subluxation based side where we're treating anything. We're just adjusting subluxations and letting the body do its thing. Right? [0:20:14.5]

Kevin: That makes life a lot easier, doesn’t it?

Rob: I think it could. But I can't…

Kevin: Sarcasm. Sarcasm.

Rob: Right. Right. Well, I came out of .... and back in the mid 90s and I fully believed when I got out of school that if I adjusted people, they would all get better. And since I actually paid attention and didn't just continue to drink the Kool-Aid, I saw that some people got better, but a lot of people didn't get better fully and a lot of people didn't get better at all. And so there's a lot of grey area in practice that doesn’t lend itself to dogma, that doesn’t lend itself to hard and fast rules or cookie cutter approaches. We want to shine the light on that for people and offer them the confidence to live in that world because that's the real world. [0:21:10.5]

Kevin: So let me ask you a question on that. What are some of your thoughts and recommendations from the clinical side of things for these chiropractors? Not like, okay, you need to do these techniques or whatever, but just from your recommendation on if they're struggling with that or they want to get better - what would you say to that chiropractor?

Rob: Well, frequently more is not better. Right? We see a lot of folks adding a lot of initials after their names and going to all the seminars. Their knowledge is a mile wide, but usually their application is about an inch deep. So more isn't better. Simplify is probably the way to go. Simplify and zoom in on what you're really good at. Focus on that. Start from there. Then the second thing is - I don’t see enough chiropractors using a test, treat, retest type of approach. [0:22:12.9]

They're not engaging with the effects of whatever treatment they're offering, and if chiropractors just would start with those two things. Just simplify, get out of your head, simplify and then really be with the patient, even if you only have 5 minutes with them, really be with that patient and see - did this thing, and we, you know, if you're a subluxation based chiropractor, you're not going to call it a treatment, did this adjustment have the desired effect? Then when they come back in, did that desired effect, is that maintained? Start with those two things and we can build on that.

Kevin: That's great because it's just, it's universal, you know. If you want to be an ART chiropractor and do some adjusting, you can apply what you just said to that person. If you want to do MDT you can apply it to that. That's great. I like that. Perfect. [0:23:06.3]

So I want to touch base again on it, and I talk a lot about it - I think the thriving chiropractor is, I call it the three-legged stool that sits on a bedrock of communication. So there's four things that … the three-legged stool is clinical expertise. It's business acumen and it's marketing. And again, communication is going to be important to all three of those. I obviously love the marketing side of things, but a lot of people forget or done realize I spent a lot of time on the clinical side and was a clinician first and so I definitely got that near and dear to my heart. With this whole thing, with you know, I love the idea that we can have a really thriving practice and do it the right way. Now if you decide to be full in network with all the insurances - great. If you decide to be purely cash - great. There's you know, different strokes for different folks. Either way, you got to be doing it the right way. Now would this all kind of fall under the business acumen side of things, or would you put this under the clinical side of things, Mike? [0:24:12.6]

Mike: Well, I mean - when you're talking specifically about insurance plans and cash based payment things, most of it falls under the administrative side, but it goes back also to what you guys were just talking about, you know, the check, treat, recheck. That's something that brings value to a visit, too. Where we're talking about lack of confidence when you're dealing with a patient who is paying more suddenly or paying all of the bill on that visit. If you can show them that they're better just from being there, you know, that's part of it as well. That's part of the communication part. As far as the administrative stuff, you know, it is a foundation for the rest of it too because if that's failing, you can work as hard as you want to be. You can be as good as you can be and if you've got holes in your bucket, you're going to never succeed. You're always going to be fighting. [0:25:01.4]

Kevin: I want to unpack that for a second, what you just talked about and what Rob did and then you piggybacked it a little bit with the reexam part. Right? So let's just go on that reexam side of things and we can apply it to different things here. So, obviously we see, we probably know of a lot of chiropractors that will bill the reexam because it's been 30 days or whatever, but they really didn't do a reexam. Right? So that's one problem. Then we have got the other chiropractor that did the reexam and did what Rob talked about about check and recheck, you know and all that. Did all that but didn't do the, didn't bill out a reexam because they felt bad about it. Right? Or they'll have the same… they'll have Bob and they'll have Mary. Bob's got a $30 copay. Mary's got an in network deductible. Did the same reexam after, let's just call it 30 days for the sake of argument and billed Bob the reexam because it didn't effect his copay but didn't bill Mary the reexam because it would have been a $70 something visit instead of what it would have been. Right? [0:26:06.9]

That goes into that whole thing of if you did a really nice reexam and you communicated to Mary, then you would bill her for the reexam and there's a lot less likelihood she's going to be confused about the why this visit is a little bit more expensive than the previous ones, and you can communicate to her and she can say, yeah, I got value out of that. Like that was worth that, whatever, that one visit being a little bit more than the others. Am I on point with that?

Mike: Absolutely. And it all comes back down to communication as well. You know, going into that visit. Hopefully you have Mary fill out some outcome assessments or some sort of questionnaire about how she thinks she is progressing. A lot of this stuff revolves around the patient. We get too tied up in results and data and all that kind of thing, but part of the three leg evidence stool is patient expectations and patient's desires as well. Back to all that. It does come down to communication and doing it different ways for different people based on their pay, you know, gets you in a compliance nightmare. It gets you in a really sort of … it makes your life harder to try and juggle through all that stuff as opposed to just having the same procedure for everyone. [0:27:13.5]

If you do stop and do, like you said, a really robust reevaluation, they'll know you spent more time with them and if you focus on the things that you found the first exam, and note that those things are now improved, that's also a value builder for the patient too - that what they're doing is working and it's helping them, and so there's value there.

Kevin: Perfect. You know, and I talk to a lot of chiropractors and they want me to help them out with their marketing, which is great, and I have dove into the numbers with a handful of my chiropractors that I do work directly with and I'll find a lot of times that their office visit averages is pretty much lower than it should be, and we will dissect that a little bit. They'll admit, it's like, yeah, I'm not billing reexams, even though I'm doing them and I'm not billing, you know, the person came in and they had a low back condition and I found the hip to be restricting and I adjusted it, but I didn't bill the extra spinal because of whatever reason. [0:28:11.9]

We unpack that a little bit and it's like, well, you know, your goal of wanting me to help you with marketing was to bring in more revenue and have more profits - well, why don’t we actually just target that first and that could actually do the same thing you're wanting to do without actually having to spend money on marketing.

Mike: Yeah, and I've consulted with a lot of practices over the years who come to me and say, look, I need better cash flow. I need better procedures. I need something. This is the very thing that is the first way that most of the time, they're just leaving money on the table because they're afraid to collect it. They're afraid to bill it and afraid to get the money for it. You fix those procedures, their practice goes up 10%-15% - their income comes up 15% a month, a year. You fix all that stuff, then you can build out from there. [0:29:00.1]

Kevin: Yeah and the only overhead that might come with billing correctly and bringing in more is if you outsource your billing and they get a percentage of it, but that's fine.

Mike: Right.

Kevin: You're not spending thousands…

Mike: Getting a percentage of more.

Kevin: Exactly. It's not spending $1000 in new marketing strategy to help get it and then you brought in $900 and you lost $100 - that math. Alright, cool. So, let's unveil. What do you guys got going on? How are you two going to help the chiropractic profession? Actually, let me interrupt. How are you going to help even more because you guys both have just done a ridiculous amount for the profession already, but Rob, what's going on? What do you guys got?

Rob: Okay. It's my turn. I like it. Well Mike and I have been talking about this for a couple of years now. He has an area of expertise that is sort of unparalleled and I have a point of view on practice that I think is pretty unique based on my experience and so we're putting that together into a website/consulting, coaching program called Practice Mechanics, and we're going to unveil that in September, actually. [0:30:13.2]

Kevin: Perfect. I love it.

Rob: Yeah.

Kevin: What are some of the main points? Obviously, we have dove into some of it, but what's the pain point of the chiropractor or a few of them that you really think is the main aspect of Practice Mechanics?

Rob: Practice Mechanics hopefully is a trusted source for information. Right? We have discussed this a lot online and in other places. There's just a lot of bad information out there or incomplete information. And so we are, we have been in practice combined 50 plus years and we feel like …we have gathered all this information over the years and we want to put it in a place where chiropractors can access it all in one place and they can trust it. [0:31:09.3]

It can be in places, it can be the type of information that sort of is missing from other offerings that are out there, especially on the administrative and the clinical side as we have discussed.

Kevin: Yeah. One of the things that I talk about where, like for instance, the Modern Chiropractic Marketing Group - that is a lot of information. It's just a bunch of dots out there. Right? Whereas what we try to do when we work with chiropractors on the marketing and business side of things is we try to connect those dots and turn it into knowledge. I'm assuming that's what Practice Mechanics is going to be. It's actually going to be the knowledge that you can trust and be confident in to apply to your practice, have the practice done the right way and then you can build on the other shiny objects - right?

Rob: Absolutely. Absolutely. [0:32:00.0]

Kevin: Perfect. Mike, are you guys going to do anything as far as compliance training or assessments for chiropractors or…

Mike: Yep.

Kevin: Okay, go ahead.

Mike: We can come at that a couple of different ways. We can actually just, you know, sit down with a practice, consult with a specific practice and find out if they've got concerns or weaknesses or whatever and we can gather data and see what kind of forms they're using, what kind of procedures they're undergoing and fill in the gaps for that. Or I'm developing some sort of an online course that will be in modules, you know, to kind of break this down because it is kind of … the concept is overwhelming and the word is kind of overwhelming to people and they don’t want, you know, a dump truck backed up to their office and dumped on them about what they need to do and change as far as their documentation and their record keeping and all that kind of thing. So hopefully we can break that into digestible bites and we can feed that to them either with documents or with audio/video or both and then have some sort of a manual at the end that they can work from too. [0:33:00.9]

Kevin: I want to touch on something too because I think sometimes it goes unsaid, but I feel like a lot of people fall into a situation in their private practice to where they are afraid of letting someone into their practice and kind of unveil some of the things maybe they've been doing wrong and they feel guilty about it or ashamed or maybe it's ashamed because they know they know they're doing it the wrong way or they're ashamed because they don’t what the heck they're doing. I think sometimes there's a lot of that going on. One thing I can say about you two gentleman is that you're not judgmental characters and going to, you know, if someone is going to trust you with this type of unveiling of their practice, there's not going to be like, oh, I can't believe you've been doing this like this and stuff like that. I'm assuming people can feel confident being able to just say, you know what - the past is the past - I want to do this the right way - no one is judging me that I've been doing this the wrong way for a few years. Do you see that a lot as well, some of that shame and guilt about it? [0:34:05.4]

Mike: Yeah, and that's what the hesitancy is, like you said. But the nice thing is if they're reaching out for help, they've already kind of admitted something, you know. So they're willing to take that on right away and interesting enough that when people reach out, you know, they need to know they can trust you. They need to know they're not going to be ridiculed and they're not going to be turned into some authority or something like that. I feel like I try to be kind and gentle, but I'm also painfully truthful. If you're messing up, I'm going to tell you because I don’t have any other way to mince that. I can't say you're really screwing up, but you can probably get away with it, you know, that kind of thing. That doesn’t feel good to me either. I've seen enough bad things. I've seen enough people get in enough trouble over bad things that I want people to get it done right, sleep at night, to be confident and to turn a profit, and can do it comfortably.

Kevin: As Rob and I would say, you would probably tell them in a nice Southern gentleman way, "Bless his

Rob: Bless his heart. [0:35:00.9]

Kevin: And then if you want to get the New York, kind of shoot me straight, like, you know, you'll get it from

Rob. Right?

Rob: Uh-huh.

Kevin: Forget about it.

Rob: Forget about it.

Kevin: That's awesome.

Rob: To piggyback on what Mike was saying, I see that on the clinical side all the time. What chiropractor feels 100% confident when they're working on another chiropractor?

Kevin: Uh-huh.

Rob: Alright? This is the chiropractor's conundrum. Right? They're always the most amazing chiropractor when they're not working on other chiropractors.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rob: And so from my standpoint, because I coach people on the clinical aspect and especially the manual therapy and mechanical side of things, what I see is that yes, people are ashamed and oftentimes, people are trying to be something they're not. And they need someone who can see that and guide them to the place where their strengths lie.

Kevin: That makes sense. I think what happens too is it psychologically, maybe not even understanding that it is, it just really inhibits your growth and so if you're not doing things right, you may not add the marketing strategy to it because you just know there's too many holes in the bucket and it's not worthwhile. [0:36:16.6]

Maybe it's subconsciously you don’t even realize it. Or your talent acquisition for good associates just tanks because you're like I don’t want this associate to come in here because and realize I suck clinically or I'm doing shit the wrong way in the practice side of things and so now, you’ve hindered your growth because you can't bring in good talent because you're not living up to maybe what you think it should be.

Rob: Uh-huh, exactly.

Mike: Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Rob: And we all have problems. All of us. None of us are perfect in this game.

Kevin: Oh, it's so true. Everybody doing it has got something that's definitely there and I think that's what's exciting about having a group like this that you're able to do that for them, and it's great. [0:37:08.2]
Sometimes we just get left on an island if we're not careful and it's just not the place to be. It just doesn’t help you at all, and so that's great. How can they find Practice Mechanics and how can they reach out to you guys if they're interested in really being able to lay the foundation of their practice and business and clinically, so the growth just exponentially improves?

Mike: Well, for the short run, they can reach out to Rob or I individually. We also have a Facebook page. We're
building our website now. We hope that's going to be launched in September.

Kevin: Perfect.

Mike: And then we'll build out from there.

Kevin: Great. Then I know I'll be seeing you at Forward St. Louis. I'm looking forward to it. I graduated from there. I won't be doing work on anybody while I'm there but I will be talking about marketing. I'm looking forward to having a drink with you two gentleman again. [0:38:03.2]

Rob: Yep. Perfect. Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin: Rob, what's new in the world of the FTCA and your excitement for Forward St. Louis?

Rob: Wow. Are we not all excited? I mean… So here's the thing about Forward St. Louis that I think people who didn't go to Kansas City last year, especially people who are newer in the FTCA Facebook group, what they don’t understand is that… I mean, as someone who has been in practice 23, going on 24 years, I've been to countless seminars and at many, many seminars, you're just hiding from people. Right? Because you just want to get into it. Right? Like you just like, we are polarized profession living in a polarized world and you just don’t want it. There is a family aspect that goes on at FTCA that is unrivaled. [0:39:05.3]

There are personal connections that are made, professional connections that are made. I'm looking forward, personally, to that more than anything else and we get to see folks like Gray Cook and Annie O'Connor, and you guys are speaking. Gregg Freidman is emceeing the event. The quality of offerings that are going to be going on, that are unfortunately going to be distracting me from the private conversations, the professional conversations - to be able to get what is it 18 or 22 CE credits?

Kevin: Yep.

Rob: While all that is going on? Come on. It's so fantastic.

Kevin: You know it's funny, because obviously you and I, the three of us, we knew each other online for a little bit and then we met at Forward KC a year ago, and then this year alone from connecting, Rob, you've been instrumental in meeting with me and having a drink or breakfast before two of my biggest events this year. One was before speaking in Parker Vegas and then one was the night before I got married. So think about that. [0:40:13.8]

Rob: I am not only your personal life coach…

Kevin: Yes.

Rob: … I am your lucky charm.

Kevin: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rob: You'll need to keep me on a retainer for all future major life events.

Kevin: I did perform well after both of those meetings, so thank you, Rob.

Rob: That is not a coincidence, my friend.

Kevin: So, just to wrap it up - Mike, what are you speaking on at Forward this year?

Mike: Interestingly, I am teaming up with Gregg Friedman, which you know, automatically makes this better. He and I are going to, as he tends to do, speak about documentation. We just want to put some good spins on it and try to make it entertaining and informative and that kind of thing and play off each other and cover two hours
of the things that people really need to know and want to know.

Kevin: Perfect. I'll be there. [0:41:00.0]

So, alright guys. I really appreciate you taking the time out to jump on a call. This was fun. I might have to do more like this. So, great information. I think the biggest takeaways from this is that no matter what you've been doing in the past, it's never too late. There's no shame, no guilt. There's definitely guides here to help you do it the right way and then be feeling really good about the fact that you're growing the practice the right way and you're thriving. So, it's out there to be had and Practice Mechanics is going to be a great resource for you. So, thanks again, gentleman.

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