Picture a whiteboard with a ton of Host-it notes on it.
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(01:08): One of the things we hear often from our audience is how much they love hearing the stories and advice of project managers. Episode 17 unicorn project managers continues to be one of our most downloaded episodes. So since we haven't featured a project manager in a while, we thought it would be a good time to bring one on. Again, the reality is that the best project managers, they really are they're leaders. At the end of the day, they seek out ways to improve businesses, uh, processes. They work on their game and they strive to deliver an exceptional experience to their clients and to trade partners. They lead, uh, today's guest is a project manager. Who's doing just that with a large custom home building company. A few months ago, another builder nuggets guest reached out to share with us, his project manager, introduce something new that was helping their team. So we looked him up and here he is, we're here talking about the scrum method of project management from Brook Wright construction in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. It's my pleasure to introduce John Jardine. Welcome John.
(02:05): Hey, how you doing? Doing well, man. Excited to have you on. And uh, I hear you said that you've got a little excitement in your life now. Yeah, little excitement. I've got a baby boy, his name's Lou Lewis. We're calling him Lou for short and, uh, and he's a little brother to my son jet and I'm, I'm pretty excited. I think we're, we're done at this point and, uh, I'm just absolutely thrilled to be a dad the second time around. I'm I'm pretty bagged. I got sick. I don't sound fantastic. Probably I got sick right around the same time that he arrived and then, uh, dots mom came to help out from the east coast and, uh, tested positive for COVID upon landing and, uh, ended up quarantining. So we didn't get that help we were looking for. And, uh, it's just been rough. It's been really rough. Yeah. Yeah. You, you know what that stuff's like,
(02:57): It's been, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, best of luck to you, man, and it's exciting to, you know, be a dad again and, um, just new new chapters, so good luck with all that. And um, hope everybody does well. So, I mean, when we first talked, you know, it was a while ago and you were with Brooke Wright and I'd like to hear a little bit of maybe about your backstory, how you connected with, uh, Brook Wright and Byron and, and maybe even some of the transformation you guys have, have gone through over the last year or so Brook Wright is now considered a legacy company. We're, we're a layer now. And, uh, Brook Wright was kind of for me, like, uh, just a cool company in town that I, I didn't think I really had a chance to work for. I was interviewing for some shops down in the us, uh, Seattle area and, uh, before things got too serious there with interviews, I just reached out to the book rate. Instagram didn't really know who I was talking to, but just said, let's, let's get together. Let me take you first sandwich. So Byron showed me a really cool sandwich spot. We still go there. Uh, but I took him first sandwich and, uh, basically he kind of liked what I had to say liked the way that I think, and, um, took me on and kind of a small capacity at first and that grew and that grew. And then eventually I became, uh, the general manager here at Brook Wright. That was, seems like a time ago, but, uh, anyway, now Byron and I are, are actually next door neighbors too, so well, that's kind of cool. How long have you worked together with, with barn?
(04:25): Uh, I'm gonna say five years, which is kind of the boiler plate answer for anything, you know, how long have you had back pain? Five years. Uh, you know, how long have you been a dad? Five years? No, I, I it's about it is about five years. What things have you, you know, before we dive into some of this in the weed stuff, I mean, how, how, I guess, has the company changed just in the sense of maybe types of projects and approach to managing the projects how's that changed over the last five years? Sure. So the, the, the company, uh, has shrunk a bit in terms of personnel. When I first joined, they were certainly growing and, uh, it was a, a labor, a company that performed labor. Um, so we were kind of getting, we were getting quite having that kind of 15 people on staff split between office and field crew. And now we're at, we're at five we're at five, and it's really, it's kind of a four and a half, so there's a real tight four of us. So it's by and myself, Alex, LHAM, who's a, a real sharp field guy and Jordan, who's a, a framer with a great work ethic. So that's kind of the makeup up in right now. And I, I say four and a half because we have, uh, a girl in the finance seat who's, uh, coming on real strong. So I'd say it's gonna be a, I should be rounding up to five, her name's Katie, and she's just an absolute machine. And we like having her here.
(05:50): You know, the thing that led us on to having this episode was the conversation around scrum, uh, and just the approach to using that, introducing it to, you know, the company, your team that you're working with. Now give us some background on how you on first of all, what it is, you know, why you kind of gravitated towards it and, and how you're using it. Uh, I it's easiest for me to think about, like, I didn't know what scrum was when I started looking for it. And the reason I started looking for it is because I had trouble accessing Byron and Brian, Brian being kind of the elder statesman of the group who have just like terrific knowledge I, that I could always use. And, uh, I had trouble accessing them because they're busy, right. I'm busy. And it was just hard to get them meaningfully engaged when I needed it. So I was looking for a tool and I was complaining a little bit to them. And I was complaining to some people that I knew, one fellow in the finance, uh, banking industry and another guy who was in, uh, he was an electrical engineer, but he's a pretty forward, uh, progressive thinking guy. And they both told me in the span of a week, uh, you need to look at scrum and you need to be reading this one particular book written by Jeff Sutherland.
(07:08): So scrum is a framework framework. That's based on agile methodology, which is, was developed for like the software industry and used a lot in the healthcare industry and banking, you know, Silicon valley type stuff, where they were able, able to get groups of people, usually between say four and 12 people working effectively together on projects and benefiting from the cognitive diversity that they had within the group to, to push things forward. And basically just read the book. I was like, I knew that if I could access these guys, uh, in an efficient way, access their knowledge, that I could help keep everything organized. I just needed the right input. So basically read the book. I took my time bringing it. I probably read the book a few times over the course of a couple months and then eventually made a presentation to the group. And, uh, a few people thought it was silly. Maybe everyone did, but a few people let me know that they thought it was silly. So like that way of putting together glorified to do list, uh, was one thing that I heard, but basic Byron, uh, gave me the green light to give it a shot. And then, you know, it's been, uh, two years since then. And, uh, and we're rocking with it.
(08:18): That's cool. So, I mean, why don't you, I guess, just dive in and tell us what that looks like, you know, I mean, what, what, what kind of things happen on a, like, how does it, how do you apply it to a project? What happens on a daily, weekly, get us in the weeds a little bit with it, What it looks like is a big part of it. And I think a lot of people are familiar now with CanBan boards, which is a Japanese word, basically for like visual board. And so what you're trying to do is make, make the work visible. So picture a whiteboard with a ton of post-it notes on it. That's what it is. It represents everything that you're focusing on for the course of that scrum cycle, which I'll get into. And you see those boards in the background of a lot of things right now, movies there's, you know, it's just part of the, the, like the working culture right now, but, and they usually look chaotic, but the alternative is, and they, they, they can be a little chaotic, but the T is they're chaotic and you are your, your, your work is chaotic and you just don't know it.
(09:15): So this is a way of taking everything that is on everybody's mind and putting it on the board and, and creating some shared objectives. So you got a big, big board. Let me think about how big hours is it's. It's like five by 11 feet. It was actually pretty heavy, pretty hard white board to get up here. And you've got three columns to do doing done very, very simple. So in the to-do column, it's like all the stuff you're gonna work on. Simple, the doing column is anything that is, you have done everything that you can on that particular item to move it forward to done. So there's nothing left. You can do. It's in somebody else's hands you're waiting and then done is anything that's done. And everybody agrees on the definition of done. So then forget about that for two seconds, everything I said to the left of the board, you have something called a backlog and the backlog is anything that you're going to on in the future. So when I say in the future, what is that? What exactly does that mean? So when something enters comes onto the board, it's at a very specific point in time. That's when you're doing your sprint planning. So your sprint is the duration of time that you're completing work. And I think the last time I talked to you, or the, the last time we tried to re this, we were doing two week sprints and we've since moved after a year and a half, we've moved to a one week sprint. And I think that we're, we're happy with a one week sprint, but basically I'll take you to day one. So day one, you have a blank board and you have, let's say your backlog's blank two, and it's, this is somebody who's trying to get started. That might be helpful. So just to clarify on this board, would this board be one particular project, or maybe all the projects you're working on?
(11:02): It is multiple projects. We separate projects by color. And then we, we just have a, a legend off to the side that, you know, this color represents this project. Let's say it's day one, and you wanna implement scrum, and you've got a whiteboard and you have three columns to do doing done. The first thing that you want do before you put anything into the, to do call is you wanna build your backlog. And that means it's gonna take a while, but you're gonna have a group discussion. You're gonna have say, if you've got five projects, you'll have five different colors. You're gonna pull this color and say on this project, what are all the things that we need to get done basically between now? Like it could be something that needs to happen right away, or it could be something that needs to happen in the future.
(11:45): But by the time this project is done, this is gonna need to happen and write it down. You're gonna write everything down that you can think of on that project that needs to get done between now and the time it's completed. Don't get too, too specific just to get started. Then you're gonna move on the next project and continue writing things down to flush out your backlog. Okay? So you've built out a backlog. Now your sprint planning begins. We have kind of a fun way. There's a dark board behind me. We put the post it's up on the dark board, and then we start to run dart. So if you throw it dark and you hit the green, okay. For us, that's prospect close for, we're all gonna talk about prospect close and everybody, all the PMs are gonna talk about that particular job. It's important that you include everybody because you want to get some, you wanna get a little, uh, cognitive diversity in each project. There could be, you know, you could just be thinking missing things. So you wanna be able to share, talk about your projects, coherently and get everybody's opinions. Somebody that's not working on your project may have a solution for it.
(12:49): Exactly. Oh, I know just the guy, you gotta call this guy. And how, how frustrated is that? How frustrating is that when you, What do you mean you can't get siding? And so, and so's got a pile of siding at their lumber yard. So all that kind of stuff.
Exactly, exactly. And it's so hard to get people together to talk about that stuff without wasting tons of time. But if you're doing it efficiently once a week, you're good. So anyway, now you're gonna start planning your sprint. Let's say your sprint is one week. I'm saying this because that's what we're using right now. You're gonna say, okay, on project green, what are all the things that we guarantee each other that we're gonna get done this week in order to be successful? And you're gonna put those things up on the board. You're going to order them from most important at the very top least important at the very bottom. And if you are not gonna do it, or if nobody has ownership of moving that tag, don't put it up there because at the end of your sprint, you want to have moved everything to done.
(13:53): That's the goal. That's how you can be in control of basically being successful. You said on the day you were sprint planning. If we do all of these things, that's a successful week. You continue that process for each project. We have a special color tag for, uh, anything that's in service or warranty. So we're making sure that that gets touched as well. Yeah. You take the time to you take the time to plan out your sprint. Your to-do column will be fully, fully flushed out with tags, and then you, it might take you say four hours, but you don't stop till you're done. Who's involved in these. So who sits in on these meetings on these sprints Right now? We have it's, it's the five of us. So the, the four that I mentioned before, and then we do have, uh, Katie join as well, a lot, a lot of the items. Well, and, and just thinking back to, to legacy times with Brook rate, if we didn't have somebody in there that was in that finance seat, then you were, you were, you were thinking you, it's funny how quickly you can get a group of project managers thinking about getting things done and not thinking about what are the financial implications of a decision like this, or who's paying for that. So we, we find it very important to have, uh, uh, in this instance, Katie there, right? Is Katie there as well, but Byron's there too. Do you get trades involved with this at all? Or is that like an action item off the board?
(15:13): So we haven't brought in a trade to, to be a part of the scrum that we have in our office, but we have held some site scrums that we've had trades be a part of that is a little bit different. The, the scrum that we run here in office is, uh, is more rigid. I don't wanna get talking about what we use on site right now, cuz it's, it's, uh, it's working too, but it's just, it's just its own kind of be. So the, the nice thing about having the scrub in the office with trades and clients and architects is not necessarily bringing them in for the sprint, which we would be totally fine with. We've actually offered to say, come in and, and discuss your own sprint. But once anybody visits the office, they can come look at the board, get a snapshot of where their own project is or say, if a trade comes in and we're having a meeting with them and they see that there's tags on the board that are burdened it to them and they know our culture is we plan to move this tag by this week. They also understand that it's really important for them to well, take it seriously. You know what I mean? It's not an email. You can snooze wanna level up, connect with us to share your stories, ideas, challenges, and successes.
(16:31): The builder nuggets community is built on your experiences. It takes less than a minute to connect with us@buildernuggets.com, Facebook or Instagram want access to the resources that can take you and your team to the next level. One call could change everything. Now. I mean, I imagine this has gotta be captured in, in some sort of way. I like the idea of getting it up on a board. It does. It gets everybody to kind of really collaborate on what has to get done, share some ideas. Where does it go from there? I mean, it it's got it. Can't just stay on the board. Does it go into some kind of other todo list? Does each person have their own, does their project to do? How are you?
(17:05): Yeah. That's how you doc documenting things that way. So we've talked about the sprint. We've talked about building out the sprint. Now when you've completed the sprint before you can plan your next sprint, you review, you must know a little bit about this, cuz this is a good question. So you come, you come back or, or you remember last time we talked, I don't know, but you come back and before you clear, what's in the done category, the very first thing you do, you count what you completed. You look at what is the percent completed. So we have an idea of how effective we are in our sprint. We know that if we're getting 50% of our tags done, that's pretty weak. If we're getting 70% or more, uh, for us, that means we're really working hard. So before you clear those off, you do, what's called a demo that's to demonstrate the things you completed, which usually means the PM for that project, repeating to the group on this project. I did this, I did this, I did this. And that's where people jump in and say, oh, but wait, uh, did you say, uh, load the files SharePoint? Or did you invoice for that yet? So everybody has to agree on the definition of done and there's a lot of different people in the room that have different interests. So that's where that, that would answer your question and it's, it's great. How many people get caught, say moving something to the done category, myself included that isn't like the loop isn't closed
(18:39): When someone says the bathroom's finished, but the shower door is still three weeks out. Right? That's an incomplete thought to me. Exactly. There's it's, there's a lot, you know. Or has that been, has the cha you know, has it a change order been created or, or whatever? There's a lot, there's, there's a lot of steps. So you do, when you do these sprints, I guess you're doing 'em once a week, but do they align with, is it just simply a weekly thing or can you also take in and align it maybe with certain tasks, like, Hey, we're gonna have a, we're gonna have a sprint for the close out of the job or, or, or is it simply just a weekly thing and all the things that have to be done every week and you're doing these, these sprints.
(19:19): Yeah. So let's say, uh, let's say you have a closeout. We're calling them a 45 day closeout. And, uh, within the 45 day closeout, you've got 150 items. And like, we just, we're working on closing out one job that had, there's like 400 and so some items and we're down to the last 50. So you're not gonna put 450 tags up on the board. That's crazy. You want you basically, you want to put things up on the board that need to have special attention paid to them, or they will be forgotten. Those are the type of tags that need to be up there. If there're totally routine things that you know are gonna get done, or you are say, for instance, with a closeout, you'd be communicating large lists of information to other people like electricians and plumbers and here's little here's deficiency list. It would be, you might have a tag up on the board that says, communicate deficiency. Let's do plumber. And then another tag for communicate deficiency list to so that you're not overwhelming the board and the rest of the people in the group with, while inundating people with information, that's not really gonna help move things forward. It's Right.
We like to parse it out that way.
(20:33): Yeah. That's interesting. And I liked how you, you know, kind of mentioned the word chaos in the beginning, cuz a lot of this is chaotic and there's times where that's okay. I can, I can imagine some of the thoughts when you, you know, start the sprint. There's probably a lot of chaos and that's good. Get it out, get it out of your mind, get it on the board and then you can start to sort and prioritize. And is that sort of how you, how you use the board? For sure. Like we have, our sprints are our Tuesday morning and then every subsequent morning, uh, we're meeting at seven 30 in the office to have a standup meeting, which is just a quick, it's a quick 15 minutes in front of the board that says, what did you complete yesterday? What did you, what did you do yesterday to help complete the sprint and what are you gonna do today to help complete the sprint? And then what's blocking you pushing the board through to completion, pushing all those tasks through to completion. Like we've all kind of, it's almost like a path, you know, if we, if we get that thing, if we get that board done, something else comes up and you know, blindsides us well. So be it. But we're committed to getting everything on the board done. And if we do that, we're gonna be successful. And uh, and it's really helped us support each other in completing each other's tasks. Like, oh, I see that you need to get, you know, you need to pick up me samples from this place. Well, I've gotta go over there and, and pick up some metals. I'll do that for you. But if you know, you could do that for me or, or whatever people are able to create some efficiencies that way. Yeah. It's been, it's been fun.
(22:06): What do you think about it is, has, has been the most powerful, I mean, is it, is it the, the idea that it's visual, you know, the fact that it is something visual that everybody can get in a group and look at and is it, what is it about it that makes it cause there, you know, you can have meetings, you can send emails to each other. I mean, I think lots of people, I'm sure lots of people listening have all sorts of systems and ways for tracking things and to do lists and all this other stuff. What makes this so different? And, and you're obviously seeing results from it. Maybe I'll talk about a couple things that I haven't talked about yet. Say Byron, for instance, like that guy is like moving, right. He's moving at a hundred miles an hour. And uh, I used to feel for him a bit, if he wasn't abreast of what was going on on a project and randomly bumped into a client, right? Like let's say he's bumping into a client or, or Brian would get pu pulled into things. A lot of times when we, we really needed problem solving. And, but if things were going well, he might not necessarily know. And uh, this has been a way to keep everybody, um, mostly most importantly, Byron like in up to speed on what is happening on projects. So thatthe is to randomly run into somebody and they say, oh, so, and so this happened then Byron say, yeah, I know that.
(23:27): And, and I know this too. Um, so that's great. So it's really kept people from being in the dark. And then in the, in that same vein, it's kept people from, you know, there's times when you have this like small problem that grows and you don't have somebody to share it with. It gets people in the habit of sharing their problems with people on a weekly basis. And then to the point that it's just like, you know, people are just free talking about what, what things they're stuck with and can't complete. I would say it's a number one, I'll say number one. And number two would be number one, like more efficiently applying cognitive diversity and solving problems on projects. And number two, it's like the amount of grenades, like I'm just calling it a grenade, but like things blowing up because things blow up sometimes like that has reduced to like zero. I know that might be a little bit cocky, but over the span of two years, just have things that like poof all of a sudden, oh my God, nobody thought of this. And you know, who's gonna pay for that. That type of thing has because we're, we're, we we're in the rhythm of talking and sharing, uh, about each other's projects all the time. Like that has really, really drastically, I would say disappeared.
(24:43): Well, the whole concept of the board is very proactive versus reactive. You know, you guys are constantly looking at what's coming, what's coming, what's coming, what's coming. And I'm sure there's some anticipation you probably will, will get around looking at the board at times and even head something off, say, oh, wait a minute, we better do this before that. Or, you know, if we, if we don't tell so, and so this is not gonna be, so you you're, you're being very proactive And it's the ultimate water cooler too. Like, you know, to just get together and talk like to have, have the board there, like there's always stuff to talk about. And, and then just one more thing, like it also, it's a bit of a security to come in and say like, Hey, I want you to work on this. And this is really important. You can kind of turn and say, well, I am working on these things. So where does that slot into my priorities right now? Because that's my, these are my priorities and right. Is it, is it important enough that it's gonna bump down this like P application or could this in the backlog? And it can be something that we can kind of pass through a filter and decide actually it's not that important or we can worried about it next week. And it's so it's been incredibly valuable for that too. Like the, believe it or not, the backlog, the backlog is incredib for act. Log is incredible for, for just filtering out things that aren't necessarily important, but shouldn't be forgotten
(26:01): Something that I've been looking at a lot recently. I've been hearing it come up over and over and over again. And I think it's very affects project managers a lot. I mean everybody, but I think project managers in particular is truly understanding the difference between urgent and important because everything becomes urgent. It could be something that it's not important, but if, if left to its own devices and forgotten about and kicked down the road, suddenly it becomes urgent. And I, I think a board like this would be incredible for that because that's where you want. You wanna be spending your time on the important stuff, not the urgent stuff. You don't want things to become Urgent. That's so it's so stressful too. Like even, yeah, what you're, what you're saying is just, yeah, I, I'm just happy that I have this backlog here. If something pops up, don't it doesn't need to happen this minute. Then a lot of times pop in the backlog, somebody else might say, nah, or that's already done or, or whatever, but the, but the backlog is yeah, the backlog is great. So with the board and with this, one of the really nice things about it is say Katie, who, who just joined, she's got the financial mindset under, you know, she knows that, but she's really willing and, and, and wants to dig in on the PM side and understand that like, all you really need to do here is have like a little bit of buy in and be able to, and want to participate. And you can, you can jump in and participate.
(27:21): Like you don't get these things that are handed, something's handed off to you. And then all of a sudden you're in a silo and it's like, I have to get this figured out this week. You know, it's like, well, I can look at the board. I'm gonna say to the rest of the team, like, I really feel like I can handle this and that and this, and then the rest of the team might be thinking, well, that's great because I don't wanna do those things, but I'm able to say, you know, have a difficult, difficult conversation with a client or, you know, do some other things. So you, you get, uh, it's easy to bring other people into the system. Now, do, do you introduce this board to clients at all to clients get a chance to see the board or Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's it, it has to do with making work visible. You know, this guy would run a, he runs a lean, um, warehouse and the doors are open. He's got nothing to hide. People, walk in there. He wants people to be able to see, you know, this is the way we work. And, uh, it's kind of nice. Like I, we're happy to have a client walk in and sit down and see that, like, this is exactly what we're working on right now. And the stuff in the backlog is what we'll be working on in the future. And to say to them like, Hey, you know what? You could help if, if you wanted to stick around for 10 minutes and, and talk something like this through, we can move it to done. It's actually, uh, they're a really important part of the project. And, and they're welcome to, uh, view the board and, or participate
(28:47): Primarily. This is a once a week thing for you guys. You're getting together and, and, and doing this, obviously the board's there all the time. You can always look at it. And like you said, water cooler, but Sorry, I gotta, I gotta cut you off though. It's a, it's a, it's a once a week for sure. Tuesday, eight 30 start every single Tuesday, the, the standups are seven 30, but, uh, that's just to, to jump in on that. It's, it's like not, non-negotiable, we're very rigid in the implementation. Yeah. I would think it would have to be yeah. For it to really, to stick. You said, I love the idea of, it's always there, the water cooler, it's there to just two project managers happen to be walking by staring at the board. You're you'll probably create another solution. Yeah. yeah, absolutely. That, yeah, that's kind of cool. So for anybody listening out there, I mean, how, what's the best way for them to maybe get their head around this? Get started in it, learn more about it. I mean, what's, is there some tips there?
(29:39): So, so agile, agile develop of nerds? Uh, they're all like when I say nerds, I mean, it, in the nicest way, like real, real heavy hitters in the software and, and health industry, one of those guys is a guy named Jeff Sutherland. And, uh, he wrote a book called scrum and it's scrum being twice the work done. And half the time it's a super simple book. It's like, it's very, very easy reading. Even if you don't want to take on scrum, I would just highly recommend checking out that book. And he's got some pretty critical things to say about like classic project management. And not that, you know, it's the Bible or anything like that, but, uh, Gantt charts, for instance, like I used to be just, just rack my brain to, to make, to build out a Gantt chart. And, you know, the way those work, it's like, you put everything you have into it. And then on day one, there's like something doesn't happen quite right. And then all of a sudden, you know, the rest of your Gantt chart's broken doesn't mean you can't use Gantt charts and we still use too, but there's a lot of, uh, knowledge in that book. So I would say scrum getting twice to work on in half the time and, uh, an open mind and buy-in is all you need to get started. That's cool. That's very cool. And how about as far as you guys, can folks find you guys on Instagram?
(30:58): We are Alair homes, Calgary, and, uh, you wanna look for Byron underscore Brooks underscore YYC oh, and you, you also need, uh, you need PostIts and don't get the cheap post-its cuz they fall off the wall. You don't need a whiteboard don't use puzzles use Sharpies, cuz you gotta be able to read from a distance and a blank wall and you're flying. Thanks again. We'll get some of these references and notes into the show notes here. And this is, this is kind of cool stuff and, and you're right. Nerdy in the best sort of way. But I mean, I, it's a good way for project managers and other folks to geek out, into, you know, getting things done. I love the idea of getting things done in a lot less time. So thanks man, for sharing. Good luck with the, with the newborn there and um, you know, best of luck and everything else moving forward. Thanks luck Mike.
Hey, thanks for listening, Dwayne and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome. Got a cool tip idea for a show problem that you haven't been able to solve or maybe just struggling to figure out what you need next and where to get it. We can help hit us up@buildernuggets.com and start building freedom.
