People way underestimate how difficult it is to recruit.
Welcome to builder nuggets hosted by Dwayne Johns and Dave young. Hey, our mission is simple, build freedom. We are a couple of entrepreneurs turned business coaches who have dedicated ourselves to helping our builder remodeler clients create the most rewarding businesses in the industry. My co-host Dwayne has been a successful builder and remodeler for over 30 years. He's seen the highs and the lows. From the beginning though, Dwayne has been on a quest to find a better way to run a contracting business. In 2016, he found that better way. That's how I met Dave, a lifelong entrepreneur and visionary who measures his success by the success of those around him. He reached out one day with a formula on how to transform my business and the rest is history. Since then, we've teamed up to help hundreds of contractors like you build better businesses and better lives. Now we've decided to open up our network and share our secrets so we can start moving the needle with you. It's collaboration over competition. Each week, we bring together industry peers and experts who share their stories so that we can all build freedom together.
(00:51): And now we've decided to open up our network and share our secrets. So we can start moving the needle with you. It's collaboration over competition. Each week we bring together industry peers and experts who share their stories so that we can all build freedom together. We have to have six episodes in the can on the myths of recruiting with our experts, Paul Sandeman and ed Earl of contractor staffing source. So far, we've been sharing. What's been holding you back from success and how to find key talent.
(01:24): So far, we've learned that you have to always be recruiting and that employees are a worthwhile investment and they are not a cost today's myth is that you have and do it yourself. And that is such a softball Dwayne, because anyone who's ever followed the show knows that we are all about building a more autonomous business that allows you to focus on what your good at the problem is. So many times we try to do too much ourselves. So ed and Paul, you just shared that you need to always be recruiting, but who should be responsible for it?
(01:59): Yeah. Well, that's a great question. And it, and the right answer is it depends. And you know, that's always the right. That's always the right answer, right? Yeah. And so, you know, for, for certain companies that want to do recruiting in-house and have the right perspective, that works, but it doesn't work for as many contractors as they might think, because it's a, it's a much more complex process. And and we'll, we'll go into that a little bit more, but you know how I, I start when I'm talking to a contractor and they say, you know, well, Y you know, w we could just do this ourselves. I've got a gal in the office and she can, you know, take this over. I bring up the point about what every good contractor does, which is that they subcontract out and they do what they're best at right contractor. Doesn't go out and try to wire the house themselves. They hire the best electrical subcontractor they can to wire that house and they manage the project. So every good contractor knows that that's how you build a successful business is by finding the best science and subcontracting that out. So why wouldn't you take the same approach when it comes to something as important and as specialized as,
(03:11): And I use the analogy, I roll enough here to remember when airport food was terrible, right? Because airports are good at running airports, but not, it may go to making food, right? So they've all gone to a Starbucks, makes better coffee. Mcdonald's makes a better Proger whatever. Now we go to restaurant, we get all awesome food, because there are people that are really good at making food. That's what they specialize in. Right? So, and a contractors like that, most contractors are really poor recruiting. They don't know how to do it. They've never done it. They have zero experience. And then if they don't want to do it, they sell, they take, you know, Mary in the office who has even less experience than they do. And they say, how are you going to be put an ad in Craigslist and ZipRecruiter indeed. And we'll do this ourselves. And they're leaving the most important function in the business, up to the person who's at least qualified, which I don't think is particularly good idea.
(04:08): Yeah. We, we talk about the highest and best use. Like if you are passionate about recruiting, you are great at it. It is where you should focus your energy on. You should probably be running a recruiting company instead of a, a construction company. Or maybe you have somebody on your team that can do that. In most cases, it's not the owner who should be doing that. In most cases, the business leader is responsible for, for the vision and coming up with the strategy, but not necessarily executing every aspect of it. You, you guys touched on EOS in an earlier episode, in this really boils down to accountability. And how do you assign the accountability for developing, you know, who's next on your team recruiting, and it's, you have two choices. It's either somebody on your team or somebody outside of your team and you, you really need to go through that exercise to determine, Hey, do I want to be in a construction business? Do I, or do I want to be in a, in a recruiting business? And where is your time best spent? Where's, where's your team's time best spent. But one of the questions that will always come up is, you know, what is it? Is it expensive? Like, I think again, we talked about that scarcity mindset with people who are worried about the return on investment. How do you guys manage that conversation? Because I think that's a huge part of it.
(05:34): Well, I have me being the founder of this company and having been in the construction business for like 40 years or so, I realized that contractors all I'll call them frugal as a group, right. They part with their money in a very easy department than me. And so when they're looking at paying 20% of the first year of salary for project managers, a hundred grand that's 20,000 bucks, you have a really hard time swallowing this $20,000. Yeah. So when we developed contractor staffing source, we said, let's charge a lower monthly fee. We charge between 1,005. It depends on the client, but it's a monthly fee that allows us to be part of their team, right? So it's, and we recouped it three to four people. So they let's say it costs 25, 30,000 a year, get the hap a professional force. That's there all the time recruiting for them and people way underestimate how difficult it is to recruit first, you have to have a really good software.
(06:33): I mean, our software bill is 1800. It's about 25,000 a month, just our software, right. But it's worth it because we have some really cool software. And the software consists of a really good applicant tracking system, which allows you to do automate the entire place in the, either resumes, bath, and all that kind of stuff. So you need an automated system to do that. And you want to, you know, dig a hole with a backbone out of shovel, and you need a really good assessment system, which allows you to know more about, we know more about other candidates and their mom, and about 45 minutes, I'll take her, her assessment. So it's important that you have, if you're going to recruit, you have to have a really good applicant tracking system, which is going to cost you four or 500 bucks a month. You have to have a really good testing system, which is going to cost you about 200 bucks a test, just start there.
(07:20): And then you have to have a person who can actually read those tests. And our guys have run six, have read like 6,000 tests. So now you need the test. You need somebody to guys should read the test and he's somebody can actually run the applicant tracking system, which is another piece of software. And in most companies, that's a good halftime job. At least for somebody who's going to run the applicant tracking system, check on the resumes every day. And when we go through, I know, 1500 resumes a week, right? And we have like 20 people on our team to do that. So it's a way bigger project than most people give credence to. And if you don't put the time in, you don't have the right system. As in the applicant tracking system, you don't have the right assessment system, which allows you to know about these people before you talk to them, you're not going to do a very good job.
(08:11): We used to description world-class when we talk about what you're shooting for. And when you're putting something into your business, a new element into your business, or refining an element in your business, you need to look at it through that world-class lens to say, can we deliver a world-class experience or can we do this at a world-class level? Or what would it look like if we did find somebody who could do it at a world-class level, and if you find the right person, who's an expert at it, that really is world-class chances are they've scaled it and developed it and have accelerated to the point where it's actually a lower cost. And then when you factor in the reducing the risk of the better caliber of outcome and what we talked about in the previous episode, you know, the cost of firing somebody, you actually save money and become more efficient by, by putting a system like this in place.
(09:08): Contractors don't know what they don't know, right? I mean, how many contractors have researched four or five, six assessment programs, whether it's a disc profile that we'll use, or have they done a real research project on one of the best ways to assess talent? How many contractors actually know what an ATS system is? Right. They don't know how. And so they sort of don't know what they don't know. And they go in with, I've always done it this way. I put an ad in indeed, I've put an ad in Craigslist, whoever shows up, shows up. I do, you know, an interview. I take a shot. I'd rather hire internally and have, you know, once in his friends than hire externally. But this is, it's not best practice. Is it just the best they know?
(09:53): Right. And talk about like in a, in a competitive environment, what you just described there gives you no competitive advantage. If you're, if you're in the top tier of people who are using experts like yourselves, what sort of competitive advantage do you feel that you guys deliver?
(10:12): And also really, you know, right now, Dave, you know, like Paul said, well, yeah, maybe in the past that's worked, but in today's labor market, there is maybe one good candidate for every three positions that are out there. It's just, it's so difficult to find a good candidate that you have to employ every possible advantage that you have in order to attract those star people onto your team. And, you know, if you aren't responding immediately, I mean, our staff daily they're scanning the pipelines. I mean, within five minutes of someone submitting an application they're contacted and a contractor that says, oh, you know, my, my gal does it every Friday. She comes in and reviews, resumes. If someone submitted their resume on Monday or Tuesday, if you wait until Friday to contact them in this competitive market, they're gone. They found another job. I mean, if they've got the pick of the
(11:09): Only the good ones are gone, the really flakes are still there, right? With all the different builders, remodelers folks that you've worked with across the boards, from recruiting to consulting. How many have you found that are really good at recruiting
(11:23): One? All right. And I now remember she's incredibly organized and she's passionate about everything she does is one of my contractors, whites, right? And she went into it with full passion, putting it on 25 job sites, doing everything she could to make it work. The only downside is they were married, which had other complications. We even have companies that have recruiters like may have 50 or a hundred employees. And they still use us to do the heavy lifting because it's less expensive than them doing it. Even though they have a full-time recruiter on board. But the answer to that is between zero and none. I don't know what you think.
(12:11): And that's really my point is that it's our highest and best use. Steve. And I talk about that a lot. You know, it's, for the most part, this is not something that anybody is going to be doing well, not something that they want to do. They're not very good at you've got it. You've really got to look at it as how do I, how do I get this off my plate? It has to be done. That's what we were already touching on that in the first few myths. But you know, how do you do it in a way that it's not consuming your time? That's again, that's the way you have to look at it. It's something that's, it's being done. It's being properly, being done properly professionally. And now it becomes a weight that's lifted off your shoulders versus a burden of you trying to figure it out.
(12:45): Well, think of it as automation. I mean, if you, if you could put this into your business tomorrow or start putting it into your business tomorrow at the highest possible, at a world-class level, it would mean that you're probably working with a world-class experts. So for you guys, what's your advice to somebody, to a builder who wants to explore this? How do you find the right recruiter? What should you expect from them? What should they expect from you? What happens after the introduction of a candidate? What do you need to know in order to develop a successful relationship with a cruder? Who's a recruiter. Who's going to be a valued part of your business and be that easy button for you where you can rely on them with confidence, set that up for us.
(13:29): Well, like any due diligence you ask other contractors, right? You go to the internet and you do your research on the internet. You find out companies are doing it. You looked at reviews. So it's like, if you're going to go stay at a hotel, right. And you do your due diligence to find out which company matches your goals, your advanced, I mean, obviously we're, our company is a boutique company. We only got 20 people working with us. Other companies like indeed have thousands, right? They're like, you know, the Google of whatever. So decide you want to a little company, a big company. You want personal service. If you want to work with the biggest guy out there, you want to pay by employee. Do you want to pay per month and just spend your time doing your diligence? What do you think in
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(14:37): Well. And I think another thing too, is find someone that has experience with the construction industry, particularly residential construction. You know, there's a lot of recruiting firms out there, but there's not that that specialize in the residential construction industry. And, you know, our industry has been impacted pretty significantly by the pandemic, mostly in a positive way. But you know, we're going to talk about that in a future episode about whether you need to hire from within the construction industry. But if you aren't working with a recruiting firm that understands the current dynamics in the residential construction industry, you're much less likely to be able to really find effective,
(15:21): Especially in this environment right now it is a numbers game, right? I mean, you've got to get a lot of candidates across your radar, right? Take the time to sort through them and make sure they're fitting your avatar, so to speak. And just another reason that think about their time that would consume. If you're trying to get,
(15:38): I'll give you some, we have these numbers, we'd be right. So we go through a thousand to 1500 resumes a week and we get higher on the average of five people. So it gives you some the time that it would take any individual to just sit down and do this.
(15:54): The other thing too, Dwayne is it's a two-step process. You ask really are, you know, how many people do we know that done this successfully impulsive one. She was really super organized and she was great at the first step. And the first step is attracting candidates, right. And, and finding those. But the second step is evaluating those candidates, assessing them, screening them, interviewing them. And that she wasn't so good at because she didn't have the experience of doing that. So her, her, her German organizational skills did a terrific job of posting all the, the job in all the job boards and attracting these candidates. But then when it came down to actually evaluating and assessing the candidates, that was the second part of,
(16:39): She didn't have the background in the construction industry, right. She was really brilliant at what she did, but she hadn't been in construction. And where I think we bring something to the table is I've been in construction, you know, 45 years. I know that you're gonna find many recruiting companies that have that kind of background in construction that we, between ed and I, we have a lot of many, many years of what works and doesn't work in construction. And we built our company around just residential construction. That's all we recruit for, that's it because we understand that industry really well.
(17:14): And that's going to be attractive to somebody who's looking at you online. And the point you made about doing your research and doing a little less up to, to, to find out that really just comes down to who you want to talk to, where we can go next is who do you want to work with? And that comes down to the conversation with a company like you and digging in like yours or a relationship with the guys or whatever, whatever that looks like. But I think it would be valuable for a lot of people out there that are considering this and are going to have, want to start having some of these conversations. What do they really need to know from you? And what do you really need to know from them? Because if I'm one of those culture protectors, I'm going to want to come to you and share with you, this is really what we're looking for and how, how are you guys finding this? And, and it's important that they have these values and that you set up a filter that's personal to me. Somebody else may be more volume driven. So what are the best conversations to have when you're now belly to belly with you guys you're committing to this, what do you want people asking you? What, what do you ask them?
(18:27): You want to find the standard you're looking for. So we have this assessment, which I think is one of the best on the planet. We give that to your ideal employee, right? And to you. So we know what you value, what you don't value. We can determine your culture by the assessment that we do. So we highly recommend that you take the assessment, you assess your key employees that have all those traits, which gives us a measurable benchmark that we can assess somebody on and know in real numbers where they match and where they don't. What do you think?
(19:03): Yeah, that is so key. Again, we talked in the earlier episode about the importance of fit and company culture. And that assessment test is a great way to be able to evaluate. And if you've, you've performed that assessment test on your existing staff and, and taking it yourself as the owner of the company, it really gives you the, the good perspective and, and calibrates you to be able to understand and evaluate your candidates.
(19:29): And the assessment is not judgmental. I mean, some people have different, nice to knowing need to know the truth is the truth. And she was not quite the truth and what you can exaggerate, what you can't exaggerate. And it just gets cultural, right? I mean, you've gotten Elon Musk and you've got other people. I mean, they have different cultures, right? So it's not whether it's good or bad is an apple or banana. Right. And so when you're doing the assessment, it doesn't have values. It doesn't say this is a, it says it's important. That person has a great cognitive ability or has a great honesty score or has whatever. And that depends on the company, right? So it isn't right or wrong is just assessing the culture. These values are important to us. Are they important to you? And that changes from company to company?
(20:23): Sure. It all, it also changes in the, with respect to the company's intended growth too. And what they're trying to achieve next, because I could see a business owner sitting down and saying, all right, this is what we found when we did these assessments. This is who we are right now. But if we're really trying to grow, and we have some goals that we've talked about as a team that we're not there yet, is it possible to recruit around who you want to be to level up and bring in people who are going to elevate the rest of the team aren't wearing in there yet? I mean, that, that would seem like an exciting opportunity to me. You know, if you guys are going deep enough and identifying that stuff and this things like this conversations like this don't happen at, you know, at an internal team level meeting, this is how you grow. And you really take your business to the next level is when you are outsourcing and getting people like, like these guys here, Paul and ed have been doing this for, for a long time. And it really offers an opportunity to take your business to the next level. One that you don't really know how to do yourself, that you know is important and you probably will procrastinate around and never quite get there. It's, it's the easy button to elevation here, but do you guys ever say no to clients?
(21:38): Yeah. Occasionally it happens when their values aren't aligned with ours. I mean, you know, I sort of have a metaphysical spiritual side and ed lbs is in Buddhists kind of side. So if it's all about money, it's probably not going to work with us because that's not, I mean, we, we, we, we need to make money as a company because companies do that, but that's not why we're in business to make a difference. And so if we weren't a cost, a client who says, I don't care, if they lie cheat and steal to make me money, I'm going to hire him. Probably not a good fit for us. Right.
(22:13): Yeah. And also also, you know, we are relationship driven you know, just like, I'm sure, you know, you guys talk in your as well, not transactional oriented. So if we get someone that comes to us and says, you know, Hey, I just need this one position filled and then that's it. And I'll be done with you guys. And that's good. That's not the kind of client that we're looking for. Right. We're looking for someone that understands the concepts that we've talked about in the previous episodes about the importance of always recruiting. And so they see us as a consistent partner in their recruiting program. That is an ongoing process of their business. It's not a transactional, Hey, find me these two spots. And then I'm going to let you guys go and I'll be done with you that stopped the kind of clients that we, that we work with.
(23:01): Yeah. You can literally add it to your team. And when we, when we kicked this off, it's like we started talking about who's responsible for recruiting. Well, ultimately the business owners responsible for it, but it's their choice to say, who's going to be the accountable teammate and sort of lead this. But at the end of the day, your entire team is part of the recruiting plan. It's like, everybody is a little piece of it. What you really just need is some experts who manage the bulk of it. And we talked earlier in the other episode about this recruiting mindset, everybody on the team can recruit and can be a part of it. And does the assessments and helps to determine, you know, who we're looking for and share, share the stories about why it's a great place to work. But somebody has to be accountable for the overall management of that whole thing. And if you're the business owner, that's not you understanding what is offered out there, how it all works and how you can benefit from an investment in putting a real dedicated world-class specialist on your team is a worthwhile, at least a worthwhile conversation to have. So how would, how would people who want to talk to you and find out more about getting started with this and hiring a professional? How do they get time with your team?
(24:22): Ultimately, the decision is up to the owner of the business. I mean, we can present the candidates. We can do all the groundwork and all that kind of stuff. When it comes to who actually says, okay, I'm going to hire this guy or lady that's the owner's decision. Not us. Our job is to give you quality people to choose from, but ultimately it's your choice. And I think people, you understand that.
(24:45): How, how far do you guys take the, like, there's a difference between an introduction, a handoff and, and like really teeing somebody up for a, for a very, very good conversation. How far do you guys, as a team take the conversation or the interaction? What does that final leg look like?
(25:05): So we, we do right. We receive the candidate. We evaluate them, we do this assessment tests that Paul talked about, a very comprehensive assessment tests. We check references, we do an initial screening call, and then we can also do a background check. And then, then at that point, we turn it over to our client and say, okay, here's all the information we have on this candidate. We think that they're worthy of an interview. And then we can help our clients and train them and getting better at interviewing. And as I said earlier, that's a skill that you should be ongoingly practicing. And so all of our, our clients who have worked with us for awhile have, have started to do that. But as Paul said, ultimately, then it's their decision. So we'll guide them through that interview process. And then at that point, they decide if, if they want to hire them. And then
(25:56): It is true that they are deciding whether they want to work for you as well. Based on that, that interaction once day. And it's depends on the client, some clients sort of want to do their own thing and they say, just give me a couple of people and I'll make the decision other clients we have. For example, Justin worked with Southeast, been doing, he's done 6,000 assessments, right. Which gives them a huge background. And so they would say, I want to talk about this candidate with Justin. [inaudible] His opinion. And Justin will go over that assessment. So she's in 6,000 and with that person and give them that individualized attention. But that's like an on-demand thing. If they want it, we'll be happy to provide it. But if they say, no, I like this guy, I'm going to go with them. Then that's what trips.
(26:38): Okay. That's cool. So this has been really great. We're, we're through three of these now recruit when you need someone, employees are expensive, we can do it ourselves. So next time we get together, I'm sure you're going to tell us that the only place we can find awesome candidates is from within the construction industry, right? That's right. Yep. That's myth. Number four.
(27:00): Hey guys, for the listeners out there, please tell us how they can find you. Probably the easiest way is to go to our website, which is www contractor staffing, source.com. And there you can fill out a little form when we will follow up with you, give you an hour consultation. We can also give you a complimentary assessment tests that Paul talked about earlier as well. And so that's the best way to find us as they are on the website.
(27:32): So we will all, we will write the job descriptions for you. We will, we'll take you the whole process because what to write in a job description, how to write the ad, which is very different from the Dutton description. How do attract that ideal candidate who you might need to say, are you tired of working with people that aren't at your same class? You can't, there's a whole strategy. And the job description does not make an app. You've got to attract the right people. Not only have you got to put it on 28 job boards, plus LinkedIn plus Facebook plus everything else, you have to make sure that what you've say attract the right person. And we spend a lot of time on designing those, those job ads. So they'll attract the right people and you just don't say, Hey, we're a great construction. And it comes for us. We're working a project management experience that doesn't work these days,
(28:24): Guys. Thanks for your time. This has been some really cool information and look forward to continued stuff as we dive into more myths. Thank you for having us. Appreciate it. Thanks.If you want to learn more about Paul and ed and the services they provide, you can visit www.contractorstaffingsource.comorhitusupatourcontactpageonbuildernuggets.com. And we can make a personal introduction. We've debunked, three of the six myths of hiring so far in the first part of 2022. Paul and ed will be back to tackle myths four, five, and six. Be sure to listen in over the next two weeks for our best of builder nuggets, 2021 episodes.
Hey, thanks for listening. Dwayne and I love hearing from you. Your stories are inspiring and your challenges can be overcome. Got a cool tip? Idea for a show? Problem that you haven't been able to solve or maybe just struggling to figure out what you need next and where to get it. We can help. Hit us up at BuilderNuggets.com and start building freedom.
