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A few years ago we read the book Never Split the Difference and it changed how we viewed conversations. Never Split the Difference is a deep dive into a former FBI hostage negotiator's field-tested tools for talking anyone into (or out of) just about anything. Join us for a conversation with Brandon Voss from The Black Swan Group and improve your emotional intelligence.

Show highlights include:

  • The counterintuitive way you’ll get more customers by raising your prices (7:15) 
  • The “gather data with your eyes” trick that helps you vet if a client will pay what you’re worth in the first 5 minutes of talking with them (9:29) 
  • The only 3 types of negotiators and how to deal with each type in the middle of a negotiation (16:16) 
  • The “Verbal Mirroring” secret from an FBI hostage negotiator that helps you dominate any negotiation you’re in (21:23) 
  • How asking questions to analytical type negotiators are a surefire way to blow the deal (25:49)  

To get the most out of this podcast, head over to https://buildernuggets.com and join our active community of like-minded builders and remodelers.

If you’d like to beef up your negotiation skills, join Black Swan’s negotiation newsletter at https://www.blackswanltd.com/home or check out the Black Swan YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/Blackswanltd1

Read Full Transcript

It's not about Jedi mind tricks.

Welcome to another episode of Builder Nuggets, the show where builders and remodelers discover how to build thriving businesses while working less. I'm Duane Johns and together with Dave Young, we share the elements of success that have helped hundreds of contractors like you build better lives.

(00:29): A few years ago, we read the book, never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended on it by Chris Voss. And it changed how we viewed conversations, never split. The difference is a deep dive into a former FBI hostage negotiators field tested tools for talking anyone into or out of just about anything. It had the same impact on me as well, Dave, so much so that you and I have recommended it hundreds of times and consider it a required reading for the business owners that we talk to. It's definitely on the nuggets list. So today's guest is extra special for us. He's a world-class negotiation training expert and a thought leader on negotiation, personality types. He also happens to be a boss. Builder nuggets is happy to welcome Brandon boss, president of the black Swan group. It's great to have you here with us today. Brandon. Welcome

(01:16): Dwayne Dave. It is my pleasure. I'm happy to be with you guys today. I've been looking forward to us sitting down and having a chat.

(01:22): Great. Well, we've been looking forward to picking your brain too about like all the negotiation types and the impact. Like we've seen this book and the things that your coaching has unbelievable impact on people change how they manage conversations, but we got to here, what's it like growing up a teenager in the home of a hostage negotiator? Like how the heck do you get to like sneak out or borrow the car without getting busted? Like walk us through what it's like having a dad. Who's the world leader in a negotiation. That's gotta be tough on you, man.

(01:54): You know, one thing for sure that I can say is you have a tendency to look over your shoulder and check behind you more often than the average teenager. That that is definitely one of the things. But yeah, I would say, especially in my early years, I was ill-equipped for the conversations that I was having my father about borrowing the car, right? The classic yes questions. Right. Can I take the car out tonight? Can I go to this party? No rider. How am I supposed to do that? Right. To be more specific, but it was, it was fun. Right? The nice thing about being around a guy like that is spending enough time with them. Right? You can't help, but pick up some of the things and the subtle cues and that cool process, guided discovery, things that he does. So naturally, how, how old were you, how long

(02:41): Did it take before you realized that he was really like a hostage negotiator? Well, I got to say, I probably knew pretty early on, you know, he he didn't spend his entire FBI career as a hostage negotiator. Right. He started out, he was working surveillance and then he was part of the joint terrorist task force in New York city when he worked on the first trade center bombing and TWA flight 800. And during that time in New York is when he got into hostage negotiation. And when he first joined the suicide hotline, right as per the advice he got when he was at the FBI, you know, I knew right away, right. It was this place called helpline. Oddly enough, it was actually upstairs from the church that we went to call marble collegiate church in in New York city on fifth avenue. And so I was pretty aware of that and I knew some of the cool stuff he was doing and he was gearing up to get into this line of hostage negotiation. So, you know, it was a cool journey just to be kind of there next to him and seeing it happen. And one of the fun things about being an only child, especially to a guy whose job is that intense is all the top secret stuff that he wasn't allowed to talk to anybody in the world about, you know, he had conversations with his son. And so I got to hear all those cool stuff.

(04:00): We've heard some cool stuff about YouTube trying some of this stuff out on your dad. I think you guys are on a boat and it might've been with Derek, but I, I thought I heard a podcast somewhere or read something about you mirroring him like 20 times in a row before he caught on. So you've clearly mastered some of this stuff too. Brandon,

(04:17): You know, I've been working on my skills, I'm getting my reps in and know, I do remember the story you're talking about. I can't, I can't take credit for having done all the mirroring that evening. I wish I could. There's actually a gentleman who works for us now. He works for us in the early days. And then he tried another career path. And then we hired him back guy by the name of Kenan capers was a good friend of mine. And that was back in the days when we were teaching at Georgetown McDonough school of business and king was helping us out. And we were back on the boat and the DC marina one night have a conversation over beer. And it was actually keen in that, that was mirroring Chris over and over. And after about 40 minutes of that, I had to jump in and stop them. Cause I knew what he was doing to him and I can't take it anymore. I kind of say something and that's that we all have a good laugh.

(05:09): It's so great. Like the conversations you guys must have and to be, to be a son going through that and getting, being trusted with some of that stuff that your dad trusted you with, it's probably prepared you for the business that you're in now, but I think it it's cool, the path that you've gone. So, so you're president of the black Swan group. Now you're, you're, it's a leading, you know, negotiation and coaching company. And you can tell us about that in a bit, but you don't just start out there. You cut your teeth the hard way. You have a real entrepreneurial spirit that I think a lot of our audience will appreciate and will resonate with them. So walk us through how you got, got started. It was actually washing boats. I heard.

(05:45): Yeah. Yeah. My, my first business was 14 years old and I started a boat detailing, Washington waxen app Cabot, motor yachts and, and things of that nature in the at the DC waterfront. And that, that was, I learned so much from that experience. And even just being in that community, you know, that was probably what really taught me the most is, you know, the boating communities are really small communities, especially within the marina that it's housed in and, you know, there's business owners and entrepreneurs in that environment as well. And being able to talk to them about business and get advice and, and negotiate pricing, you know, the per foot price for the wash and the wax, you know, that, that was a cool experience. There's actually a guy by the name of Peter Kennedy who was a consistent client of mine, right.

(06:39): There was always a specific time of year. I was always working on his boat and he was an entrepreneur. He installed filtration systems for people that had pools in their backyard. And there was one summer when like the demand for what I was doing was absolutely insane. And Peter Kennedy pulled me aside one day and he goes, you got to raise your prices and you got to raise them aggressively. And I was like, well, wait, what are you talking about? Right. I'm going to lose all my customers if I raise my prices. And he's like, do you have more boats than you have time to work on right now? Yeah, quite honestly you said, do Peter. And he says, you gotta raise your prices. Right. You got to raise them aggressively. And that's where I learned that. And I ended up making money, hand over fist as a result of that advice. Right. I got more clients by raising my prices. It was crazy the way it works. So yeah, I learned a lot in that environment, working out in the sun, hard labor and then getting exposed to people that want to help you out. Right. It's just, it was a cool thing.

(07:38): So how does, how does that transition into where you are now and what, and what you're doing now? And I can see how those experiences, you know, Dwayne and I talk a lot about raising your prices and being worth it, you know, you gotta be worth it still and, and I'm sure you, you were working hard to be worth it, but walk us through how you go from that to real thought leader and part of this organization.

(08:00): Yeah. I think, you know, the first of it's still the beginning as it were, I think really starts with the work ethic. You know, you, you spend you know, several summers in a row in a DC humidity in the middle of July, middle of August, waxing the surface. And again, you know, the sun on you and you've got the reflection off the water and then you're in the process of cleaning the surface. So it reflects that much better and right between that heat and dealing with all those elements, that's something that'll just, you know, you won't be afraid of hard work ever again. I think that's definitely where it starts. And I think in another part of it that that really stood out for me, was reading people, you know, reading the environment is there's actually a client of ours that talks a lot about gathering data with your, and we have we've essentially stolen that from him with his permission, of course, and just learning to gather data with my eyes.

(08:57): Like one of the things we talked about, me raising my prices, I was very much justified because at that point in time, I had two other competitors in the space and across the entire DC waterfront, I had pushed those guys out. Nobody was doing business with them. They couldn't get a boat to save their lives because my prices were good. But even more than that, the work product was that much better. Right. Bringing a boat back to life, stands out in a marina, you know, seeing the environment in that way. But then also when you talk to the individuals, the boat owners gathering data with your eyes on how they react to you, you know, what their viewpoint is on spending money in general, right? You can get a really good read on how someone sees spending money on anything. If you just pay close enough attention within the first five or six minutes to topics.

(09:51): And it just has to be, what are you looking for? What are the tells, what are the symbols, what are the signs? And I'm really started learning that back then, you know, the array of people that I spoke to from little ladies that have been living on boats for 60 years to some new, fresh yuppie that just got a new, great job just bought his first yacht. And, you know, it's, it's just interesting to, to, to see those different types of people and where they are in their lives, what their life experiences and how all that interrelates to their communication. You specific.

(10:22): Absolutely. The Dave and I talk about it a lot. The shut up and listen concept is something that we work on with folks all the time. You can gather so much by, by listening. That's huge. Yes. Very much agree. So you don't, you don't just go straight in from the boat business to black Swan. Do you w how did, how did you transition it?

(10:43): No, I didn't. So, you know, obviously I started the business when I was 14. I kept it going every summer, pretty consistently until I was probably 20, you know, it was, there was enough money to be made there's that it was something that was easy to hang on to for awhile, especially when I had a good team of guys, right. At the peak we had I had eight, eight guys working with me and knocking out both left and right. But, you know, starting my college journey, ran a play a little bit of football for those of you that have read the book, the story about the linebacker and Chris gins that's right out of them. That was about me. But coming out of college, I studied business. Right. I did business administration, which I would completely change if I could do it all over again.

(11:26): Right. But I went into sales, you know, I always knew that I liked interacting with people. I didn't want to spend time in a cubicle. Right. I also come from that, that the rat race era, where people go, the, they take the bus. So they sit in their cubicle all day long and I got their half hour lunch. And then they think their bus home. And I knew I didn't want that for myself. And it and sales seem like it would work well. Plus the communication learning aspect of it was also very intriguing. And so I started out doing retail sales for Macy's right. I started out men's shoe department. I actually, I loved my time there. I had so much fun working in men's shoe departments, actually the Montgomery mall here in Maryland, you know, probably about 45 minutes from where I live now. And then I transitioned into software and technology sales B2B for Verizon, you know, files was making a big push in several areas in Virginia. And so there was a, there was a few territories I had in Northern Virginia that I worked pretty consistently and learned a lot from that experience as well. And then from then you, I started working directly with Chris after that. So the sales and the, the experience working on boats was, was invaluable time that I would not want to take out of my past, even if I had to change.

(12:48): Yeah. And now you get to work with some, some pretty amazing business people and all different facets, all different types of industries, right?

(12:57): Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a wide array. I mean, we got, as far as our client base goes right for the company, we got everything from a small scrap business in Ohio, all the way out to you know, one of the largest hedge funds in, in Asia. And so the, it is very much a wide array. I think that what I find, you know, I think this is just naturally because based on my own experience, every entrepreneur that I run into that spent some time in their past knocking on doors, you know, making sales at a location that had no solicitation signs out front, and they're walking in closing deals, those are the people I find myself attaching to very easily. Cause there's, there's an experience you get from going door to door when it comes to business sales that you can't get anywhere else. Right. You know, people that, the judgment and the hurdles that you have to overcome walking in the door, only present themselves in that environment. And so, yeah, it's cool, man. The people, you know, from marketers to serial entrepreneurs, to people who completely just screwed up their lives, trying to run a business and then dug themselves out of it. And now that they're worth billions, you know, it's, it's, you know, people from my own heart and a lot of ways I'd like to

(14:15): Say, that's super cool. Well, let's dig into a negotiation here a little bit in the book. The biggest takeaways for Dwayne and I mirroring has been a huge one, you know, empathy, there's stories in there and how to, just how to conduct a conversation with somebody and how to bring somebody around to your side of the table for solving a problem it's super impactful. And, and we highly encourage everyone to go out and get the book. It will change the way you run conversations with anyone, from your kids to your clients. But we're interested in digging into the three different personality types that you've identified, builders, negotiate things all the time like daily. So if you can give yourself the advantage of identifying what type of negotiator you're coming up against, what type of individual you're dealing with, it's a real leg up and how to deal with this situation.

(15:09): And when I know that when you guys coach, this is not about coercing somebody to, to your way necessarily, it's actually being able to get your point across in a way that somebody can absorb it and process it and, and come around to your way of thinking. But just having it feel like it was their idea a little bit, it's not about Jedi mind tricks or anything like that. It's, it's really about how do I be a good educator and get somebody in the frame of mind where they're willing to listen, walk us through the three negotiation types that you've identified and who they are real quick brain. And just before you dive into what I just for, for everybody listening, what Brandon said earlier about the listening and the listening with your eyes. That's one thing I took away. That's so huge to be doing that at the very beginning of a conversation so that you can nail and identify what you're about to talk about. Yeah.

(16:00): Very, very well said. And, and and also to your point, they, this idea of putting someone else in the proper mind frame, right. And how you have a direct influence on putting them in that place. And I think that's, that really has a lot to do with it. So first things first, the three, the three types that we've identified are the assertive, the analyst and the accommodator, and based on rough data that we've gathered over the past 13 years or so, our contention is that the world pretty much breaks up evenly into thirds, despite culture, despite no place of origin, the world is pretty much broken up into those three categories. And what's great is once you have your mind wrapped around how each category thinks, right, how, how they operate in a negotiation or in any potentially conflicting situation, right. When they're dealing with a problem, you can then immediately start to strategize how to deal with that person.

(17:05): Right. And we all, we all wonder, like, what's my strategy going in? How do I sequence in my communication? First of all, that's always going to be based on the counterpart. And then once you identify where, what bucket that counterpart fits into the path becomes much clearer. And so start with the assertive, simply put the assertive is the classic aggressive, loud, right? The shark in the water, the person that you feel very much like you've gotten punched in the face. When you talk to them, Chris likes to say that he's a natural assertion. And he had a former partner in the FBI that liked to describe dealing with him was like getting hit in the face with a brick. And that's probably the, I couldn't say it better myself. That's very much what it feels like to deal with an assertive. What's nice about that is because they're so aggressive and straightforward and direct.

(17:57): It's easy to identify when you're dealing with that person, right? You, you can feel instantly when someone's being overly aggressive. The second type are analytical time. They very much coincide with, with the late night FM DJ bullets that I'm sure a lot of people have heard Chris ND laid on you know, various places, right. In various interviews. But the analyst what's, what's even more important to know about them is they pride themselves on preparation. They pride themselves on gathering data. And, and interestingly enough, a word like data is something that's very specific to the analytical type. You know, our assertives and our commenters don't actually use the word data that much. They use things like information and facts, but analysts specifically use the word debt. And then lastly, our accomodators are accomodators are classic, very friendly, easy to get along with relationship focused people. And so once you understand the main intent of each one of those times, and you can essentially play

(19:03): Once you've identified them, how do you approach them? How do you deal with it? And you know, when I think this will be interesting to see what you think. Cause when, when Dwayne and I are entering a situation like this, we're trying to get information. It's all for us, it's all about asking the right questions and keeping a person on track or actually asking them stuff that they're, that they feel comfortable answering because we want to unravel everything. How do you go about, you know, you've identified them, what are your different approaches with each one?

(19:32): Yeah. Very good. And that's a great place to start. So a couple of things starting again with the, the asserted, right. Kind of just starting at the top of the order here, because the assertive right. Aggressive, straightforward, direct, they also have a tendency to want to control the environment of communication by doing a lot of the talking. And the worst thing we can do is inhibit that in any way, if anything, we want to cultivate, right? We want, we want to allow them the space to have the floor. And you actually mentioned earlier, the a skill mirrors mirrors are in fact, the best tool to use with an assert. And it's a couple of reasons for that and better than questions, right? A couple of reasons,

(20:17): A quick reminder, that the best way to get the most out of this podcast is to engage with the builder nuggets community, visit our website@buildernuggets.com and follow along on Facebook and Instagram.

(20:30): First of all, questions have a tendency to trigger deep thought. They're actually been referred to by many other psychologists in the past, as as thought, pattern interrupt questions are completely useless against an assertive, however, triggering deep thought. And resetting their thought pattern might not be the most advantageous thing with an assertive because they got a train of thought that they're on. And it's usually best to keep them on that because if they get distracted, then they kind of lose sight of where they were going and you can end up down rabbit holes. Right. And so just simply mirroring

(21:06): Which we need to define by the way. Cause I don't think we define mirroring earlier, but walk us through. I mean, and it's such a simple thing to do, but what a great way to encourage somebody to give another interpretation of what they were just trying to say to you. That's

(21:22): Yeah, that's exactly right. So to clarify on mirroring, mirroring is not the classic body language mirror that a lot of people are aware of, right. They cross their arms across arms and lean back on your back. It's not that at all. It is simply based on verbalization, which everything in regards to tack the sympathy that we discussed is all an actionable item. It's all based on verbalizing. And so with a mirror you're simply verbalizing the last one to three words, never more than five, but focused on the last one to three words that they say, and then to put the icing on the cake, as far as the execution of the skill inflection is a big part of how they interpret that mirror. And so if you upward inflect upward in the flag, right? It sounds like a question it's a really quick way to almost say, tell me more about that.

(22:13): We're pleased go on without actually having to use those words. And then of course there's the downward reflection just simply mirroring and that's more so I get it. I'm with you. There's a confirmation here. If you'd like to go on, I'd like to hear more however, where we're at, I am fully in line with your thought process. And so as you're getting really good at mirrors, you will also find it doesn't have to be restricted to the last one to three at a time, right? There may be things in the middle of an assertive dissertation writing to get specific that you want them to focus on and without interrupting or causing a thought pattern, interrupt with a question you can simply mirror that, that little piece from the center and then the assertive we'll just keep going in that direction. And it allows you as a negotiator to be in full control of everything. The assertive tells you while they in fact feeling control of the conversation, you are directing them. You are the conductor and they're just simply playing the violin as you tell them what notes to hit.

(23:16): And there are some really cool examples of this in the book. We're not going to dig into them today. And, and also in I subscribed to Chris's a masterclass too as well. There's, there's a really cool exercise where he, as an actress playing a 15 year old girl who wants to go to the lake house or boyfriends lake parents' lake house, and this is just done to perfection. There's some really good examples to see how it works. And it, it works on everybody. It's, it's the encouragement to continue. I call it pulling little red threads. This is how you unravel stuff and you're using it to let them unravel themselves so that you then know what problems you need to solve and how receptive they're going to be to working on it with you. This, this is how a skilled negotiator extracts.

(24:04): That is a great way to put it, you know, pulling on the thread and allowing them to unravel themselves. I liked it a lot. And to your point about the masterclass a role-play for those of you out there that trying to figure out how do I get reps in, right? How do I practice my mirrors? If you got kids or you've got nieces and nephews, right? Those are the best people to actually practice on like mirror your children. That's a great place to start, or,

(24:32): You know, anywhere at a restaurant car dealerships, you know, when another salesman it's, you gotta have some fun with that. I mean, I've heard interviews about paint, colors of cars, you know, and, and all sorts of things. But it's amazing when you start to think about it, how much the tactics that you, that you guys are presenting is, you know, negotiation tactics are really just conversation, tactics and ways to get people, to reveal themselves a little bit more to you on their terms. So it's, it's super cool. So that's the assertive, we got analytical Apax and, and builders come across this all the time. And sometimes we're dealing with a husband and wife team and they could be completely, completely different. So how do you manage the chaos when you got it? What kind of skill does it take to be able to go between the two types like you're grinning right now? Like, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah,

(25:22): No, there's, there's so much there to unpack. Right? And, and so I'll, I'll start with just dealing with the classic analyst to begin with. So again, right. Very data driven love to prepare until they bleed from the years, right? The decision tree, tight people. And you know, this, this particular type, when we, when we identified how prominent this type was and the way they operated, it was actually one of the first, one of the first times that we made a real push for staying away from questions in tire. And this was one of the types that got us to do it. And the reason is when dealing with this type, the analyst will only ask questions that they think they already know the answer to. And they are in fact, using a question to build a wall around you. Like it's, it's actually a bit of a trap when an analyst asks you questions.

(26:20): And so vice versa. If you're dealing with an analyst, they see a question as a trap because that's how they use questions. And so they're deep thought trigger, right? The thought pattern interrupt, the first place their mind goes is where are you trying to take me with this question? Cause I'd only asked you this. If I was walking you off a cliff and I will not you to walk me off a cliff. Right. And all of these thoughts are going on in their brain and they're not in the moment. They're not present. They're not in a place of, of listening. Right? You haven't triggered a listening mindset, like you mentioned before, Dave. And so that's one of the reasons we stayed away from it. Cause we know there's, there's a one in three chance, you're going to run into an analyst. And if you step in a hole because you drew a poor question, Adam, right?

(27:07): What that's going to look, what are the ripple effects of that in your communication? And that's when we started leaning on label. And for those of you out there that are unfamiliar with the label technique, the label techniques simply put as a verbal observation, it starts with the words. It seems, it sounds, or it looks like. And so a simple example is somebody looks upset and you look at them in a negotiation and say, it seems like you're upset. And we really started relying on those much more with the analyst because it was a great way to win, to insight, additional information without them feeling like they're being walked off a cliff at the same time. So a classic label to use with an analyst to open things up is just simply, it seems like you got a place you want to start. It seems like there's some focus areas that you prefer. We begin. The reality is they always got this stuff ready because they spent the last four months preparing and not getting any sleep. So they've thought 30 times about what they wanted to open up with. And so by using the label, you open that door without them feeling like they're being led,

(28:14): They feel relieved, relieved. There's a great way to put because they, they, they know that they're data driven and it's the green light to be able to spill some of this out and show and show what they've learned.

(28:27): That's exactly right. And to your point earlier, Dave, about people wanting negotiations could just simply be conversation. And we actually teach us, teach just good conversation techniques of our three times the analyst is the one that hates negotiation the most. And the reason being is because the way that society dictates negotiation is there's an underlying conflict that is going to rear its ugly head at some point and analysts hate conflict. And it's not so much because they're scared of it, right? They're not, they're not going to necessarily back away from it. What is more so we can accomplish anything positive when we are in conflict with one another. And so conflict is just simply a waste of my time and I do not want to engage in it. So therefore I'd much rather have a conversation with you then negotiate.

(29:23): Yeah. And I, and I think conflict does not have a known outcome. And these guys are seeking clarity and predictability a known outcome. And when there's conflict, the outcome is in jeopardy and they like to have that, that control. So I can totally, it makes total sense when you're laying it out like this and it's it's, it's great. Okay. Keep going. Yeah.

(29:43): Yeah. Well, first of all, just you don't necessarily got to reveal to the audience. I will say it almost sounds like you're a bit analytical yourself thinking, but we can, we can address that later. Right. Just how you said that I'm a total accommodator man. Yes. It's the worst negotiator

(29:59): Then, you know, it's interesting. Right. We're going to talk about accomodators next little tidbit on the commentators. In my view of the three times the accomodators actually have the most natural gifts for good negotiation. Right. And then we'll get there in a second. But just, just going back to the analyst and around this question idea, we did a poll with several analytical people that are better, big fans of ours around questions. You know what I'm simply like, do you like being asked questions? We know that that's no oriented when it's directed at an analytical community. Right. And one of the comments that has stood out to me and I will carry with me, I will carry with me forever. One of the people say, yes, I hate being asked questions because I don't have enough time to give you an answer that I won't regret later.

(30:49): And that just blew my mind. And then to your point about conflict, it's kind of an unknown outcome. And again, if it's unknown and I'm an analyst, I don't want to go down that path. I am not looking to go that way. So yeah, those are all great points. And so going into the Combinator, the Combinator, I find the most interesting of the three. It's probably also due to the fact that that's probably furthest from what my type is, right? I'm a natural assertive, I've developed some analytical techniques, right? As I've gotten more experienced, I've gotten older, but my accommodator side is the thing I probably need to work on the most. I find them utterly fascinating, but the reality is accomodators have a natural propensity for relationships and whether you're a novice or an expert, you understand how important relationships are in negotiation. And the fact that that accommodator is naturally focused on that.

(31:43): So cutely right out the gate and all the way throughout the process actually give the economy or a huge leg up. The one biggest problem that accomodators have. And Dave, you kind of alluded to this already is when you're an, accommodator the thought of having to say no to someone, if you just turn them down flat is like, is we lose sleep over that stuff, right? That is, that is like a horror show. Right? Tell them, no, I don't know what I'm going to say. I'm going to make them feel bad. It's going to destroy the relationship. And it's just like the dentist, this downward spiral at that point,

(32:18): He just runs away with you is what happens is, is vulnerable becomes vulnerable. It seems like if you have two, accomodators trying to negotiate with each other. It's going to go on forever. Well, it's funny you say that Dwayne, because part of our, our content around the types is also what the worst tight match is.

(32:39): It's gotta be huge to figure out who you are before you even try to identify who other people are. Correct. You know, that that's a great thing, right? It's also, there's a very introspective side to all this content and understanding where you sit first and how you naturally react to other people in the environment is, is, is a great place to start, right? Like you've got to know, right? If you're a natural, assertive, there are triggers that come along with that. And one of those triggers is being able to stay in your chair, especially when you should write sitting back and being patient and not being so focused on the short-term satisfaction, right? That's an assertive problem. Then you got to know that you're going to potentially drive an analyst crazy. Who's entirely focused on the long-term and taking it slow and being very skeptical, right? You're going to drive each other and saying, and so that's a great point the way, no one where you sit is always the best place to start. When it comes to understanding,

(33:33): You know, you guys offer a lot of training. This would be a good spot for our listeners to learn about where they can learn more of the options available to them. Some of the different programs that you have in a, and a good starting point, you know, obviously reading the book, we encourage everybody. It's it's on the nugget list of required reading. The black Swan group has a number of different resources available for builders who want to work on, on your game. So walk us through some of that, please.

(34:02): Yeah, of course, you know, the book and the masterclass, right? Those are, those are almost a given, but as far as dive in deeper, we have a weekly newsletter that comes out about hit your inbox by 9:00 AM. Every Tuesday morning mean our blog really is what I should call it. We call it the negotiation, right? How to get the edge and the negotiation they're designed to be short. You know, it's always less than a thousand words, short, digestible pieces of content that generally focused on a specific aspect of negotiation. And we put out an article in that regard every week and you can sign up for that easiest place is going to be on our website, which is just black Swan, ltd.com. And if you haven't been to our site before, you're going to get a notification that pops up right away. So that it's up for our newsletter.

(34:49): Go ahead and throw your email into that. And it's, it's, it's free, right? And you also get constant updates on what we're doing live events, or when we opened up a new training class, things of that nature, like we run almost all of our marketing through our blog and all of our upcoming events and things of that nature. In addition to that we, we were fortunately going to be opening up live again, right? As the pandemic gets more and more clear, we're going to be doing more and more live events, but we have, we've broken down our content into four levels of expertise, just simply one through four. And our level one classes are designed to be just an hour, no more than 90 minutes at a time you get two instructors live with you. And he goes through all the basics, all the foundational stuff that helped build to here.

(35:38): And and then you get advice on where to go next, right? Based on how you fare in that class. You'll have a really good idea on what the next level you should take or the follow-up class you should have. But people are getting a lot out of our, our self guided internet courses as well. So we gotta be on the book series. That's it's based on never split the difference. It is. I believe it's a total of nine and a half hours of content. The first eight segments are all focused on never split the difference and the last, you know, two hours or so it's actually stuff that's based on ego with authority failure. So Derek gone also a former crisis negotiator with Alexandria PD in Virginia. He's one of our top experts who instructors here. He wrote a book called ego authority failure, which is just simply taking all the skills around tech [inaudible] and never split the difference and applying it specifically to the leadership role. And so that's a great book to pick up right, equal authority failure. But the end of the beyond the book series also touches on expanded ideas from that book. So write blog masterclass, the books, those are great places to start. And then, you know, what entry level courses, right? If you're just getting out the gate will be be lined out in our training landing page on the website as well.

(37:01): Thanks so much for coming on here, man. It's it would have been great if we had, I feel like if we started to lay out scenarios that we come across, like negotiating with trades, you know, the perception of the free estimate and all there's so many topics that builders and stories, it would've been so great to be able to unpack that, but you've been super generous with your with your time here today. We, we always love to ask what are, what are you working on next? What are you excited about these days? Do you have any new projects or something that's got you fired up?

(37:32): Yeah. You know, there's several things and one of them actually relates to kind of continued learning, but there's, there's a next level of negotiators group on Facebook that's subscription service. I think it's 1899 a month feeding into that is, is one of the big priorities right now because we've got a lot of people on there that got very specific negotiation questions. And we come in as instructors and coaches and interact with these people directly on, on that Facebook page. And then also there's a black Swan lanes page on LinkedIn where we're doing the same thing, right? People are bringing in role plays to the environment and they're getting answers from us to get Andrew answers from other people in their community. And so we're feeding a lot into that right now, as much as we can, but as a business, you know, I love change management.

(38:20): You know, I think that there's a lot to doing change management and helping people elevate on a cultural level internally. That's got the long-term ROI, right? That's going to keep them way above the poverty line, you know, for the foreseeable future. But that's, that's one effort that we're putting a lot of, a lot of time into is actually a gentleman out of Canada up in your negative mood state that I'm looking to partner with. And I'm very excited about some of the stuff we're doing. But then in addition to that, feeding back into the community, you know, now that we're building our team out or scaling as a business, it allows time for Chris and myself to go back and really give back to the community. So there's a cystic fibrosis foundation here in the DC area that we're going to attach ourselves to here in the near future is a good friend of mine that actually went to high school with in DC, that deals with leadership, especially on social media, with underprivileged youth. And so, you know, working into that community and feeding into that, and then also a community leader and law enforcement relations on a local level, right at a local city town level and getting involved in that as well. And so I'm very excited about the things we're going to be doing within the community, in addition to all the corporate and coaching stuff that we're doing as, as our big revenue

(39:45): Generators. Awesome. So, Brandon, thanks again, man. This has been a great episode today. Appreciate you sharing everything. So for folks out there that are listening, how can they find you?

(39:54): So we're one of the best places to look is going to be the website, black Swan, ltd.com. We also got a black Swan, a YouTube page, and we just renamed it. Chris Voss and black Swan group got a lot of videos on there. And a lot of content specifically that we've pulled out of classes and put clips of on YouTube for people to digest. But then in addition, when I don't, I don't spend a lot of time on Twitter, but I am, you know, be, be Voss. You know, as my, as my Twitter handle, I sometimes am on there. I don't pay nearly as much attention to social media as I should, but you know, you can find me, but yeah, the YouTube page, our website, and then also the black Swan lanes group on LinkedIn. So free group people, again, a lot of extra tidbits out of that. And as I understand it, even various slack groups where people are role playing with each other have branched out off of black Swan link. So feel free to dive in and learn from peers and black Swan experts at the same time.

(40:56): Well, there you have it. It's a little taste of how to negotiate like a Voss. So thanks man. You have a great afternoon and yeah, we'll look forward to catching up with you again soon. Thanks gentlemen. Fantastic.

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