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How do we turn the general adversarial relationship of builders and realtors into a two way street of collaboration and trust? In this episode our guest Kimberley Mackey shares real world solutions for just this. She has earned the reputation as being an expert in today’s competitive and rapidly changing sales environment. Her broad experience working directly with both builders and realtors brings a unique perspective on how all parts should work together to create the whole.

Show highlights include:

  • Why adversarial relationships with builders and real estate agents ruin home sales (5:07)
  • How working with multiple realtors can multiply your business (if you know how to build great relationships) (8:18)
  • The “Running Out the Back Door” process that allows you to pick and choose only the best clients to work with (15:10)
  • Why understanding realtor commission structures can grow your own sales (23:42)
  • How your broker registration policy can attract only the real estate agents you actually want to work with. (27:19)
  • With realtors it’s all carrots and no sticks…sticks don’t work (35:20)

To get the most out of this podcast, head over to https://buildernuggets.com and join our active community of like-minded builders and remodelers.

Read Full Transcript

One thing I learned with working with realtors, it's all carrot. There's no stick, stick, doesn't work.

Welcome to another episode of Builder Nuggets, the show where builders and remodelers discover how to build thriving businesses while working less. I'm Duane Johns and together with Dave Young, we share the elements of success that have helped hundreds of contractors like you build better lives.

(00:25): Our guest today brings over 20 years of experience as a senior level executive in the room, residential home building and real estate industry. She has earned the reputation as being the expert with real-world solutions in a competitive and rapidly changing sales environment, her broad experience and expertise in many disciplines within the building industry, bringing a unique perspective on how all parts should work together to create the whole. She is active in the sales and marketing council of the national association of home builders. Currently serving as the incoming chair on the national board of trustees. She also serves on the associates committee as the leadership and professional development chairperson from new home solutions and consulting and the sales and marketing power hour. It's my pleasure to welcome Kimberly Mackey to today's show. So welcome Kim.

(01:07): Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Hey, your Twitter bio says that you are a builder diva with the results to back it up. Tell us about that and how you work with builders and how you help them.

(01:18): I am a proud builder diva, so I'm glad that you found me on Twitter. So my blinged out hard hat is where the diva part comes from. So I have the brightest hardhat in the industry. It's blinding when I'm out in the sun. But it should have its own Twitter feed for sure. So w what I do my specialty is I do work with builders. I work with developers of all sizes from the local and custom home builders all the way up to the the big publicly traded nationals. What I do for those tends to be a little different thing, but I like to say that I'm the person that comes in to make sure that sales is the engine that drives the train rather than running it off the tracks. So I look at all the parts and the systems and everything behind the scenes.

(02:03): Usually people call me up and they say, Hey, I need more sales, not in this market. They're calling up to say, Hey I need to manage my pipeline. But typically people call me up to say, Hey, I need more sales. And when I'm working with them, I find out all just how many sales can you support and do your systems support that? What do we need to do to make sure that we have that? And more importantly, if they are a community builder, make sure we don't run them out of land. So all of those things are, are very important so that they are not only making more sales, but they're making more profitable sales.

(02:34): Kimberly, when you and I spoke a few weeks ago, it was really in response to a post on the NAHB connect forum. And you posted a question that said, builders, if you could teach general real estate agents, one thing, so they can do a better job working with you, what would it be? And my response was really around the getting to know each other aspect you know, that relationship. And we had a recent episode, a few shows back titled it's a relationship and not a transaction. I mean, I really think that's what's needed on both. What's, what's your perspective

(03:00): On that? I could not agree with you more. In fact, that was I, when I responded to you, I was like, oh, what a breath of fresh air? So it is, it tends to be such an adversarial relationship. And the truth is if we, if we would just take a little bit of time to understand where each other's coming from and a little bit of time to perhaps even educate one another, it's amazing how amazing that relationship can be. So I, I think I used the word amazing there twice, but it's just it's, it's incredible when you teach realtors how to be a part of the transaction and they bring you buyers because we can leverage a realtor. They're, they're out there, they're marketing, they have the buyers. In fact, about 50% of all new home sales come as a result of COVID brokered transaction, meaning there's an outside general real estate agent in as part of that transaction currently, we're, we're estimating around 88% of buyers prefer to use a realtor so that the buyers want somebody to hold their hand. And they look at us like, what are we hiding when we try to poopoo that relationship and push the realtor back, instead of looking at it like an opportunity and saying, Hey, if I've got this realtor who wants to bring me buyers, why don't I teach them what I do and why I do it and how we do it. And even what happens when stuff goes wrong and how we deal with it, because stuff does go wrong. I mean, we're still manufacturing out in the elements

(04:36): To your question. When you, when you said, what can real estate agents do so they can do a better job, I guess, maybe what, what brought that on? Do you, because you work really with, with builders and you hear a lot of complaints from builders. I mean, what's the underlying, what, what is maybe that the, the underlying animosity there? Well, the key word here was adversarial adversary. I'd love to dig into that for a second to learn about the perceived conflict or the adversarial relationship that can develop in the absence of a mutual education about the process.

(05:08): And, and that's exactly what happens. The process just breaks, breaks down. So I think the relationship becomes adversarial from the general real estate perspective, because of fear, because of loss of control and feeling that they have, you know, oftentimes our onsite agents will go out and they'll solicit general realtors to bring them buyers. And they say, look, the easiest thing, it's the easiest transaction you're ever going to make, just drop them off. And we will literally take care of everything. A general realtor does less than 13 transactions a year, which is up but 13 halves of a transaction that they do a year. And you just took one 13th of that business away from them, by saying here, drop them at the curb and we'll do everything for you. They want to be part of that relationship. So it's a lot of it is our language that we use, instead of saying things like, I want to partner with you and make it easy for you.

(06:05): Here's how this relationship works. You have the buyers, we want the buyers, you bring them to us because you've done your homework and I'm going to make you look really good, but I'm going to need some time to talk to your buyers, to get to know them, to understand their wants and their needs, and then be able to share with them what I can do in my community to fulfill those needs. And of course, I'm going to bring you along every step of the way that's a partnership. So we should be using words like partnership, and we can educate as we are even just having those, those face-to-face. You know, now that we're back to face-to-face in most places, those face-to-face conversations with one another, from the builder's perspective, I do hear, I hear unfortunately complaints about the general realtor who shows up and maybe best of intentions, but ends up blowing up a conversation.

(06:59): I it's a running joke in the home building industry that you've got the realtor who, while Mr. Dennis's buyer are picking out where the tree Christmas tree is going to go and where grandma's China cabinet is going to fit. And all of those things, they've, they've picked all these things out and the realtor is going, oh, we have three more appointments. We've got to go. So that three more appointment thing is it, you know, that blows, that starts us out kind of with one foot in the hole. And you're like, well, wait a minute. They love this home. They want to buy it. Oh yeah, but we've got three more appointments. So we start out that way. And then it gets worse. When, you know, we do the frame walk and you've got a realtor who doesn't understand the construction process. And they insult the builder who, you know, every home is his masterpiece. It's like an artist, you know, and he's very connected to those homes. And then all of a sudden they start, well, well, this doesn't look right to me. And you know, it's again, then we just kind of rub each other the wrong way. If,

(07:55): If a builder tells a client, well, what do you think? You're the only job I have know. You think this is the only house I'm building? You know? I mean, that kind of stuff. Just, it just doesn't go over. Well, no, it does not. No, it's all about being able to, you know, seek first to understand, and then be understood as Dr. Covey teaches.

(08:13): Give us an example, I guess, of a really good builder realtor relationship, maybe somebody you've worked with recently

(08:19): And full disclosure, I do run a builder relations program for one of the largest Berkshire Hathaway franchises in the country. And I have 33 builders who are in that program who actually believe it or not pay an additional commission to agents who have graduated from my education program. So they asked it's free for them to sign up for the program. But when we have a new home specialist, which means they are a graduate from the program, then they pay an additional commission above and beyond whatever they're advertising, whatever that amount happens to be. And they do because they've seen a difference with the educated agent. So when an agent knows how to register a prospect and they are required, they have my agents that have graduated from this program actually have a code of ethics. And it's an, it's a new homes code of ethics, where they have to call ahead.

(09:11): They have to schedule an appointment. They have to fully register their buyer, give the builder, all the information about the buyer, all the pertinent information about that buyer before they bring them in. And then they know, you know, where the builders are, how to work with them. You know, we, we teach them basically everything every step of the way. And when we see that that's where the onsite agents are getting back with me and they're going, oh my gosh, I can't even explain to you what a breath of fresh air it is when I get somebody who's gone through your program. Because they do know how to do these things. And I mean, it's not that my program is magic. I'm just teaching agents, the basics. So anybody who stops and thinks about the process for new home sales, who wants to take the time to educate their realtor VIP's and I recommend realtor VIP. I don't think you need masses of realtors to get the sales that you want. In fact, one of my programs that I train on onsite agents has 50 sales a year before any walk-in traffic and the way, and it's simple math, 25 times two is 50, right? If every on-site agent has 25 realtor, VIP's, that means that that realtor is going to bring them two deals a year. Then that's 50, that's 50 sales a year before any walk in traffic. Do you do

(10:34): Any coaching or mentorship with remodelers and maybe the smaller volume, custom builders. Those are a large part of our audience that still works with realtors. They, they, you know, they're a trusted resource for them when they have clients that are looking at buying and doing a rental or, or converting a home. And then on the other side, you have people who are considering a, a custom home or a massive remodel, and they're looking to be introduced to a builder. Do you do you coach around that as well? I

(11:03): Do. I do remodelers, I think are a huge opportunity. And I think it's a, it's a relatively untapped opportunity, but who knows better what needs to be done to a home to sell it, or when a realtor is taking somebody out to buy a home, we, you know, most of those transactions about 90% of the transactions are unused homes. So the new builds are only about 10% of all transactions that are out there. So for the remodeler to have those realtor, to have a stable of realtors who are listing homes and helping those buyers into what I call a used home, but a resale home, you know, it's not going to be perfect. They're going to need stuff. How wonderful if you have that relationship and you build your stable of, you know, maybe it's just five, maybe it's 10, you know, whatever number is your magic number, that's going to bring you those, you know, the, the amount of traffic, the amount of sales that you're looking for a year.

(12:02): So I think all of these numbers really do apply on the custom side. You know, I hear this all the time. I run the sales and marketing power hour with Carol Morgan from dental marketing. And we do our, you know, we do our own podcast, but one of the questions that we get, we'll talk about this really great concept. And the custom builders will write us and go, yeah, but how does that apply to me as a custom builder? It still applies just scale it back. So you may not need 25 realtors. You may need five. The math is what the math is. Just take the number and scale it back to where you want it. But as a custom builder, it's even more important that you're educating because you're not building the box or the box on box. You know, the buyer wants it their way. And those realtors that are out there don't understand how to fit into that transaction without you teaching them without you telling them, these are the buyers that we're looking for. This is who our buyer typically is. These are the buzz words that they're going to mention to you when they say they're looking for a home, that's going to tell you, you know what, they're not going to be happy with anything in the market out there. We're going to have to build this thing from scratch and

(13:11): The custom builder. There's a huge difference because they're delivering an experience on top of a product and it should be a good one. Yeah. It needs to be, or at all, or it all falls apart. So I think what you, what you're talking about is really a powerful, because that's smaller number. It requires a tighter relationship, a greater degree of education and a role in the experience as well. So it's going to, it's going to take some time, but you're investing in the relationship instead of the transaction, as we touched on earlier, where it's going here.

(13:42): Yeah. And relationships are hard. And we all know that, right. I mean, marriage I'd say is the hardest job I've ever had then seconded by raising kids. So, you know what I mean, any of your, your best relationships and the most fruitful relationships that you've ever had require a lot of work, and that's going to be the same way with, with realtors or, you know, your top vendor or, you know, for anything really.

(14:08): And it's kind of like a marriage. I mean, you know, a lot of times you, you can feel like you're married to your client and you've got children running around the job site. Yeah. It's, it's a relationship. It's, it's one that it needs a lot of nurturing. And I think also it's sometimes the focus is on, well, we say the transaction, but sometimes the product, the, whether it's the rental or the custom home, and we've got to back it up, it's got to be about the people. It's gotta be about the lifestyle. What are people looking for the business model? You know, how does each side operate? How does it, how does the builder operate? I mean, what is his process from the very beginning, all the way through to the very end. And I'm, I'm looking at it same way through the, through the builder's eyes. I need to know how the, how the realtor works. Yeah. There might, you know, maybe there's a commission involved, but that's, shouldn't be the only thing I'm looking at or factoring into the equation. You know, what are all the things the realtors bring to the table? And at what point does the conversation change or, or maybe who takes over the conversation? You know, so all those things need to be established in that only can be established through having a really good relationship

(15:08): With you. Absolutely back, you know, a hundred years ago when I was an onsite agent there were two of us on the floor. We worked for a large regional builder and there were some agents. We, you know, I had my VIP's and when they would call me, I didn't care if it was a Thursday, it was my day off. I was going in because I knew we were going to write a sale. Likewise, when I would get certain agents that we'd see pull in the parking lot and we'd go running my partner and I would like beat, try to beat each other to the back door. We knew that they were probably bringing us a sale, but really was it worth what we were going to have to go through for the next six months with them and their buyer, because we'd been there.

(15:49): And so we would fight over who had to have got out of the back door first, because we didn't want that sale. It should, there's a happy medium here and we need to find it. And a lot of that is understanding our own process. I think a lot of our struggle as builders is that we haven't taken the time to map out our own customer experience process and to know what those steps are, you know, right now the customer experience funnel is. So unlinear that, I don't know, it kind of looks more like a tornado that's being blown away than a funnel. Buyers are coming at us. You know, the entrances are here, here, here, here, and here to quote Robin Williams from from Latin, you know, when he was sitting on the magic carpet and he goes, the exits are here, here, here, here, and here. So you, when you have that and people are coming at you in all of these different ways, I think it's even harder to map out that and the process and know where everything is. And is it moving according to plan because it kind of feels a bit discombobulated right now, or a lot discombobulated. I mean, this market is insane.

(16:57): A quick reminder that the best way to get the most out of this podcast is to engage with the builder nuggets community, visit our website@buildernuggets.com and follow along on Facebook and Instagram.

(17:11): Well, I think that's one thing in this, in this overheated market, relationships are suffering, you know, trade relationships, market, partner, relationships with clients. You know, it, it is it's, it's really struggling. And I think I go back to what you said about, you know, whatever that number is, is it, do you have to go to realtors five, 10, but you need to treat it just like you would treat your, your, your sales pipeline maybe your talent pool, you're constantly in contact with these realtors what's going on. What's what are you seeing in the market? Do you have, what do you have coming down the plate? And I think the realtors need to do the same thing with the builders, understand what's bandwidth at the moment. Are they, you know, are they, do they have the capacity to take on a project? Are there gaps in the schedule at some point they're trying to, I mean, again, I think the relationship needs to go deep more than just a quick phone call of, Hey, I've got a deal you might be interested in. That's exactly

(18:03): Right. And a lot of that happens even after the sale. Sometimes we think of the realtor as the pre sale interaction, and then we just ignore them until it's time to turn over the keys with the settlement. And that's, that's the wrong approach. You know, when you're building a home for buyers that they've brought, you bring them along, educate them, talk to them, set the expectations early often and consistently, and then repeat those expectations over and over, because they will forget as do buyers. We know buyers forget when you explained to them, you know, what's going to happen every step of the way we forget that we're the experts in home building, and they're not, don't talk down to them, but include them and say, Hey, this is what's happening. This is gonna, this is going to be upcoming. and then share with the realtor.

(18:53): Hey, you can help me by doing dah, dah, dah. You know, whether it's making sure that your buyers don't bring the kids to the framework, it's a dangerous place. There's going to be a lot of information that we're going to cover. So we're going to need their undivided attention. I'm going to share that information with them and ask them to please make sure that grandma and grandpa watched the kids. But, you know, could you also reinforce that message with me? So, you know, you just kind of bring that realtor partner all the way along. Same thing, you know, with remodelers, I mean, remodeling is even more of a frustrating process because usually people are living in the home while they're, while it's going on. And I mean, I just recently had to have floors ripped up in my, in my own house. It's, it's still under warranty period, but I was like, you know, this is frustrating, it's it interrupts your life.

(19:40): And so that it's even more important. I mean, certainly I'm in the business. So I understood it probably better than, than most people would to have their, their lives and their, you know, I'm working from home right now. So you know, all of those disruptions, your realtor can really help with all of that. If you, again, educate them, spend that time with them. You know, these are people you should take out to lunch, take out to coffee, sit down and get to know them. You know, my realtor VIP's that I had, you know, several decades ago, I can still call up to this day and go, Hey, how's your son. I know. I remember when I went to his wedding or I know that, you know, now they're having kids and you know, how old are the kids now? And, you know, I mean, even if it's been 10 years since I've had that conversation with them, we can still just pick up right where we left off, because we got to know each other that well, adding

(20:28): Value first is something like when you're starting any relationship, don't approach it, asking for something right away. No one have your first meeting and say, yeah, you know, we're, we're building a lot in this area. And you know, we'd like to meet some of your clients. If you know nothing about the, you know, nothing about them, their clients say anything and you just are asking for something right away. I think leading into any relationship it's like you said, understand to be understood and you got to go and learn and be people just be human first.

(21:02): Then you have to understand that realtors have to know a lot of things. You know, every day they're being bombarded with education, they're being bombarded with legal, they're being bombarded with all, you know, the, the MLS rules and they've got to update this and they've got to, and, and they have to study their market and they, they study it in a broad way. If you want a realtor to focus, it is going to take that one-on-one hand-holding. But when you get one, you know, it's incredible. So I, one of the realtors that went through my program, I'm getting ready to serve on a board with him. Cause we're going to be doing 3d homes, 3d printed homes. And he's been working with custom builders and he finds them land, which is in the area that he's working in almost impossible. And he's still he's finding areas.

(21:49): This is infill builders that are doing, you know, three or four home sites, custom homes, and you know, million, $2 million homes. And he's, he's finding these home sites, turning them over to the builder and then bringing them buyers for the home sites. Because in that particular market, instead of doing everything custom from scratch, now it's so hot. The builders are building on speculation and not even listing the home until they get, you know, past dry wall or cabinets or trim. When they get in there, this is a realtor who, because he, you know, trained, he studied it and then he went out and he built those relationships with, you know, and he works with two or three builders and that's it, that was two or three builders and that's enough. And he's bringing them all sides of the transaction, even from, from finding very hard to find land.

(22:35): And this is, you know, it's a tear down, you know, they, in, in the south Tampa market, they're tearing things down and rebuilding and it's, it's, the pace is incredible and the competition is fear. So if you've got somebody like that, who's really plugged into the community and he is, you know, he's in the rotary, he's in, you know, he's in the active, in the chamber. His wife is a doctor at one of the top hospitals. You know, I mean, this is a guy who's really plugged in and knows what what's happening in that market.

(23:05): Let's talk about the, I don't want to call it the dirty word, but maybe the misunderstood word or known whether it's commission or referral fee, but for folks out there that maybe, you know, maybe they haven't engaged really with a realtor or don't understand how all that works. I mean, what is, what is the commission structure or, or, or, and referral fee, what, what maybe is considered industry norm, what's the best way to have those conversations, builder and realtor so that it, so that it makes sense to both parties and, and it's not a dirty word. It's something that's just, it's accepted, there's value seen in it. How do you, how do you coach around that?

(23:42): So I think from both sides, you gotta be open about this, right? So realtors get paid when a home closes. That's when they get paid, they do a lot of work that they don't get paid for. And as builders, we understand that because unless you're a custom builder, who's closing up front on the home and doing a construction perm or, or you know, closing on before you build, you don't get paid either until the end, most, a lot of builders, again, building on speculation or their production builders, tract builders. So they're getting paid at the very end. There's a lot of similarity there, but the builder is guaranteed. Someone's going to pretty much guaranteed. Somebody is going to buy this home at a price. You know, depending on the market conditions, it could be more than asking. Price could be less than asking price, but the builder knows they're going to get reimbursed.

(24:40): The realtor doesn't, they have no idea. Everything they're doing is completely speculative and sadly, too many of them build their business on the hope that a transaction's going to happen. So a realtor who's been in the business. I found this really interesting. I did some research before our conversation. Realtor has been in the industry for less than two years. On average makes $8,333 a year. Walmart greeters to put this in perspective, making more money than that. So, you know, at Walmart, they can make 25, $30,000 a year just with a lot less headache. So the, the median real estate agent makes about $50,000 a year. And then those have been in the business 15 years or longer on average, the median has runs around $80,000. This is not a whole lot of money. Now, are there realtors who make a whole lot?

(25:34): Yes, absolutely. So these are median numbers. So, you know, half are going to make more half are going to make less, but as builders, it can be frustrating when you're, especially when you are talking about a million, $2 million, you know, the higher ticket, custom homes, and you start looking at a realtor, making a, let's say it's a 3% in your market, or even 2%. And you start looking at that number and you're going, that's a whole lot of money for somebody who's going to be a pain in my backside. So again, building those relationships and doing business with the people who understand your business, all of a sudden that that whole perspective changes to that two or 3% is a bargain. And you're leveraging that agent's marketing. I mean, think about the marketing dollars that they have to invest just to attract a buyer. Who's going to buy that kind of home.

(26:26): That's the money you don't have to outlay if again, you're dealing with the good educated agent. So if it's not a good agent, yeah, it's a, that's a painful, that's a painful fee to have. So you said commission versus referral fee. And it's interesting. I'm working with a, a builder out in Wyoming. We're actually having that conversation right now because he builds in five different markets. And those five markets are very spread out. And the con the commission in those markets varies widely. So one of the things that we were looking at doing, instead of paying a commission, because if he advertises that he pays X amount of commission in the MLS, or, or even on his website, then now you've got agents from this other market going, wait a minute. I don't make that kind of commission in my market that my commission number is, is dramatically different.

(27:20): So, you know, one of the things that we considered was a fee for service. And of course the registration process becomes your foundation for setting the expectations there. So what is your registration process? Is it clearly posted to buyers, understand it as well as realtors, because to the buyers, this is like funny money. It's free to them, right? Nobody, they don't care. They want to bring somebody in. So they have this third party, but is that third-party qualified to be there. And what are they going to do? What is the responsibility of the general real estate agent? All of that can be spelled out in a broker registration policy that you post. And then even with your buyer, registration policy, a disclosure of that, Hey, we love to work with general real estate agents. Here's how it works. You know, they have to accompany you on the first visit.

(28:15): They have to you, whatever the rules are, you put those rules in there and how we handle when, if there's a dispute and that the buyer has to understand that just because, you know, two months into this process, they decide they want to bring a realtor in, will great. You're more than welcome to do that, but you're going to pay them that they're not my procuring. Cause all of these things can be laid out in a way that then the realtor understands. They must fully register their buyer. They must, they understand that you as the builder or the remodeler are going to be in contact with that buyer without the realtor present at some times that you're going to be part of that whole of that whole transaction. All of these things can really be very clearly spelled out so that there is no surprise at the end. I mean, it, you know, if we're advertising the MLS, you have to pay according to what you put in the MLS and each market is going to vary differently. So yeah, I would definitely recommend doing your homework. What is it? What is a used home? What is traditional in your market? Commissions, can't be fixed fees. Can't be fixed. Of course that's, that's illegal, but typically what percentage does a realtor make in your market? And

(29:34): I think that's kind of where the conversation goes in the smaller with the smaller custom builder or where you can have that adversarial relationship because you have the realtor coming in, who for their end of a deal is who's getting what two and a half or 3%, depending on the market, anywhere from two to three for, for their half. And you've got a builder who, you know, we work with a bunch of builders who pay a 1% referral fee. The feeling can sometimes be that, Hey, you're, you're turning over a buyer to me that says I'm buying land. And I know that I want to buy a, a custom home and I'm not going to be involved anymore in the transaction, which is the part you were talking about earlier. So they feel like, Hey, 1% is pretty good for a handover to us and we, and we take it and go because you're not taking on all the risks.

(30:23): This is not somebody who is you. You have the opportunity to sell a resale home. So why are you looking at it at what you, what you lose if you were to have a referral on a 3%, and that's a 0.7, 5% would be a referral fee through another realtor. So, you know, 1% shouldn't be, shouldn't be that bad. But if you're haggling over these types of things, you probably don't have the kind of relationship that you need. And you need to go back to say, well, let's work on how we add value to each other, what it means to me when you bring a client in and what I'm able to do to you do for you to elevate your status, to make sure that your reputation is in good standing and that I'm amplifying your visibility in the community, through social media posts during the build, just valuing and appreciating each other.

(31:11): Because I think that value and appreciation is the bridge between understanding and being understood. It's the path, that's the power in there that you're recognizing the other person's inputs and having each other's backs. We look at that, you know, when we talked with, with an architect recently, it's like, yeah, we really have to have each other's backs on this. So just coming in, leading with the deal, leading with the commission is a recipe for that confrontation. And same with leading with, Hey, I need a price. I got a buyer I want to meet you. I've got a buyer. They want to see about these three houses. Can you tell us how much it will cost? Like treating each other as a commodity, again, another recipe for disaster. So how do you sit down strategically map out. This is where I'm going with my business. Where are you going with yours?

(31:57): How do you like to work? What are the types of things you're doing? What are you seeing? Getting back to what Blaine talked about earlier, seeing if you're a good fit for each other and, and, and do a bit of that first part of what we do here on this, on this show, you know, the idea of collaboration and trying to assemble the parts and, you know, the information is out there for people to get. I think that's something that's missed through the process of whether it's a remodel, a custom home. You know, that whole journey from the very beginning to the end is going to require a series of experts. No, one's the expert. No one can imagine the home design, the home market, the home sell no one, I think it's important for the realtor to, at what point do they need to bring in the expert, you know, the builder.

(32:44): And then I think the same thing from the builder's perspective, you know, you need to, and that can only be through how, again, having a really solid relationship, understanding that, you know what, I've, I've brought as much really to the table as I can. I think I've led this client in the right place. It's really now time to talk to the builder that right there will solve a lot of those problems because you know, sometimes things are said that expectations have already been shot by the time the, you know, the, the project reaches the builder. And now the builder is, is kind of playing defense from day one. So that's

(33:17): The expert on their products. You have to be the expert on the market and the general area. And so many other things. That's where your knowledge as a realtor comes in that you're, you know where to take the buyer to find the solution, then let, yeah. Then you have to be able to have that handoff. And that's honestly, that's usually where we get sideways is that handoff and it doesn't have to be just, doesn't have to be. And

(33:41): That first question, the leading question can not be, what's your price per square foot. We have trained, you know, terrible that we've created that monster because we all, everybody knows that price per square, you know, that there is no equal price per square. And even within the same home, it costs more to build certain areas of the home than it does others.

(34:04): We have a, we have a builder that we've, that we know that jokes around and he, and his answer is, well, it depends. I use a cost per pound. How much does it weigh? You know, one of the things that I like to, to do to create the, the group, if you will, a VIP realtors is to actually have a VIP program. And the key to it is you've gotta be consistent. You were reward right behavior. And when you reward right behavior, you're going to get more of it. So it's a positive you, can't one thing I learned with working with realtors, it's all carrot. There's no stick, stick doesn't work. So you gotta make that carrot, you know, really good. And you know, it can be very simple things. It doesn't even have to be a very expensive program, but you can again, attract the realtors who want to be part of that program. And part of that to become a VIP, you gotta get, you gotta do a muddy money shoot to her muddy boots to her.

(35:06): You know, you gotta, you gotta walk, walk a home at frame stage. You've got to learn our unique selling pro you know, there, you can put criteria in there. I even have a it's a cute little spreadsheet that is colorful because I, you know, I like colorful things. And that says, you know, when when a realtor brings you a prospect and they register the prospect, and this is what we do in return, it's again, that mutual appreciation when they bring you a buyer and someone writes a contract, this is what we do in return. The goal is to generate those realtors who are going to bring you repeat business, because they, those are the ones. Then you get the opportunity to build the relationship with over time. And those are the ones that you're going to want to work with.

(35:52): So you're working on more coaching stuff right now. You mentioned in our discussion earlier that you've coached over a thousand builders around, around these concepts. What's, what's next for you

(36:05): If I'm working you know, no project is ever the same for me. So that's a, that's the fun thing. As we start, I do a SWAT analysis with each builder that brings me in and we figure out, okay, what's working for them. What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses, where there's opportunities that we can capitalize on. And then where are the threats? You know, what, what could really derail the whole process? So we start there and then we, the builder prioritizes, and we kind of build it from there. So I'm working with a lot of different builders around the country with different projects on, on that order right now, of course, a lot of it is pipeline management. How do I manage the buyers that I have in backlog because of, you know, what the market has done?

(36:47): How do I throw out all my sales and set those right expectations? How do I map out that customer experience on the realtor side, though, I'm doing something that I'm kind of excited about, and I don't know why I didn't do it sooner. I think the pandemic kind of gave me the confidence to do this, but I'm actually creating a program for general real estate agents based on the training that I do for Berkshire Hathaway to teach general realtors, how to work with builders and how to work with builders of all sizes. And it's going to be an online learning automated adult learning course with different modules and different levels of expertise and different certifications that the general real estate agent can get, because I see the need. I mean, just like the way I connected with you guys is we're just not speaking the same language. Somebody has to start the conversation and no one of credibility is playing in that space right now. And certainly no one, you know, who comes from the background that I come from, where I do walk in both worlds. So it's great to be able to, to bring it to the realtors from the builder's perspective.

(37:55): Well, that's great. And yeah, we certainly appreciate having you on today. I mean, thanks for taking the time. This has been some really good information, some lots of nuggets of gold here for our listeners. And so for anybody out there that might want to learn a little bit about, more about you or connect with you, how can they, how can they find you?

(38:11): Yeah. And if anybody wants that template that I have for the VIP program there, they're welcome to reach out to me too. So I'm easy to find. You can just Google Kimberly Mackie you can go to Kimberly mackey.com or new homes, solutions.com, and I'll take you to the same place, reach out to me. And, and we will have a conversation if I can help you. I'll try. I'll try to help you if I can't, I'll recommend you to somebody who can, so thanks a lot for having me on the program.

(38:37): Yeah. Thanks for coming. That was good. That was a good episode. Hey, Let me know if I can help you or any of your builders. So happy to happy to help.

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