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In this episode, you’ll discover… 

  • Why 61% of people report feeling lonely and how to address this need with the people you care about most (5:10)
  • What your pastor wishes they could tell you about loneliness (7:47)
  • How society’s definition of intimacy forces men to be lonely and how to overcome it (11:33)
  • The Triangle System for balancing vulnerability and sharing to build healthy relationships (14:15)
  • Why activities like golf and camping are vital for men’s emotional health (18:14)
  • What research data reveals about the greatest source of our happiness (22:58)
  • How to leverage technology to maintain meaningful relationships when you can't meet in person (26:35)
  • The single factor that makes loneliness worse for your health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day (28:51)

Are you crushing it at work but struggling at home? If you want to learn how to win at home, then go to https://CoryMCarlson.com and download your free copy of “10 Ways To Win At Home.”

Read Full Transcript

Welcome to the win at home first podcast. I'm your host, Corey Carlson. This podcast is where we talk about how successful business leaders win, not only at work, but also at home. On this podcast, we will go behind the scenes with great leaders to hear stories of how they win. Thank you for listening and on to today's episode.

Hello, this is Corey. One thing I've enjoyed about doing this podcast is meeting new people and learning new things. And it's fun to get to share these new learnings with all of you. So today was Shasta on the episode. It's a great one. We talk about the importance of relationships and how we are as a society, getting more and more lonely. And this episode will help you understand, Hey, the importance of relationships, how to have better relationships. She has this triangle to help us think through our relationships and how to grow them, to have more depth. We talk about what happens when we do in fact, feel lonely and how do we recalibrate? So this is an episode that will apply to your work to your marriage, to your home. It's a great one. I hope you enjoy as much as I did. Thanks. Hello. This is Corey Carlson. Welcome to the window

(01:14): At home first podcast. I'm excited today to bring you Shasta Nelson. She is a well-known keynote speaker author, and just a leading expert on friendship and healthy relationships at work and has been on Katie Kirk show the today show just all kinds of different platforms she'd been on. So just blessed to have her on today to share with the winter home first listeners on this key component of relationships. And she just wrote her third book called the business of friendship, making the most of relationships where we spend most of our time. So I thought it'd be perfectly fitted for this audience. So Shasta, thank you very much for being on today's episode. I'm excited. Thanks for having me. Yeah, that's great. Well, just to kick off in your own personal experience, plus as you've traveled the world and been around families and just seen so much take place, what have you seen as a key element for leaders the winter home first?

(02:10): Well, I would be remiss if I didn't say since relationships are my whole thing. And I think I come to, I come down to thinking they are more important than anything and that everything rested on them. I would say my definition of a healthy relationship is where people feel seen and safe and satisfying ways. And I would say when leaders do that, whether they're at work or at home, when they help the people they're engaged with feel seen in ways that feel safe and satisfying a community. If we just focus on that one thing we would be winning. So yeah, healthy relationships are my answer. Finally answer as well. I figured that'd be your answer, but just a couple of neat things that you said that I do know individuals struggle with, especially in the busy-ness of life running companies or divisions is scene the other in the relationship. They're so focused on a or an I culture it's about me. I want to be happy self gratification. How were you encouraging people to see others?

(03:13): Well, yeah, being seen requires two things. It requires one person having to disclose something and it requires the other person having to receive that. And what I would say respond in a positive way to it. So if we don't respond in a positive way, if we start giving advice, instead of empathy, for example, or if we walk away feeling judged by somebody or if we feel kind of neglected and didn't get a much of a response where whether we even consciously think it, we're not going to want to disclose again to that person. So I, it does require both those things and it takes bravery and kind of showing up and letting something be seen. And it requires the other person to receive that in a way that says, I accept you, whatever it was you shared, whether you need to be validated for that or whether it's laughter that's the appropriate response.

(03:54): But yeah, we'll talk, we can talk more about that when we break down what makes for a healthy relationship. But yeah, that seeing thing at the end of the day, I've got to tell you when we look at loneliness numbers and not to get all off on stats and everything here, but 61% of us are reporting, you know, feeling lonely on a somewhat regular basis and for generation Z and millennials, that number is even higher. And for men it's higher for people of color, it's higher for senior leaders, it's higher. So yeah, there's a lot of different groups of us that that number is even higher so that when we kind of pull apart, what helps somebody not feel lonely? It usually comes down to wanting to be seen, like wanting, like it's usually not that we want more interactions. It's usually not that we just need a bigger social life. It's usually not that we just don't know enough people. It's usually, if you peel it down, it's not knowing who to confide in. Not feeling like anyone really gets me not feeling like I'm understood and those are matters of feeling seen. So this one key thing that you, that you jumped on was the right thing to jump on because it is, it comes down to, it comes down to everything. People are craving and are lonely to be seen

(05:02): 61%. Have you seen that just trickle up to 61 or has it been a hockey stick growth if you will, to, because of social media or be anything in particular? I mean, as you look at the statistics over time, is it just kind of a flat linear line or not flat, but just a nice trend line or

(05:23): So it's a thoughtful question we don't really know because we haven't had people studying the same thing over time. And so when something like set studies used to be, we'd ask everybody, are you lonely? But so many people don't identify with their loneliness or wouldn't admit it, you know? And so we have not had really good numbers. The last couple of years, I have been very, very encouraged. We have Cigna health insurance. We've had some other big companies jump in. Cigna comes to mind. They have done two years, two in a row big study where we're talking 20,000 people, some of the biggest sites and they're using the UCLA loneliness scale, which is the gold standard in the so I've been very encouraged watching their numbers. And what we saw there is they came out with numbers in 2018. And then again, in, in January, 2020, and the numbers went up just like they went up another, you know, I think it was single digits, like eight, 9%, 10%. So they did see within even a year or two, a little bit more of a jump up. So we don't have a good way of seeing if it was a hockey stick. My guesses though, that it's just been continuing to trickle up. And yeah, the way we're doing our lives currently is no, no bueno. It is just not leaving, not leaving. Most of us feeling connected in the ways we really crave.

(06:36): And it's, it's just so wild because we're all kind of going through the same events. And I remember in part of my career being corporate American, I thought I was the only one going through some of these messes. And then I'm on this coaching side now. And almost every single call I have, whether it's zoom or it's face to face, the executive will be like, I'm probably the only one that says this. It's like, no, you're not. And I think that's got to be the same in your line of work where people want to be seen. They don't know who to confide in. They don't know if anyone could relate. The whole deal is everyone can relate. Cause we've all got the same brokenness that we're going through. And I'm sure you're seeing that as well in your line of work

(07:15): Completely. That's one of the things that first got me into this field eons ago was, well, I used to be a pastor so backup in my first career, I was a pastor and I saw so much of that too. Like everybody comes to church looking, you know, polished and happy and cheerful and their lives are so good. And then you have this incredible sacred opportunity as a pastor to see behind the curtains of everybody's lives. You know, that, it's a really beautiful thing that you're, that you're trusted to see. And you just wish you could like stand up and kind of just say like, all of you who think you're so alone in this, like we're just all collectively to your point, all having these experiences and a lot of loneliness is, is very much in, in a feeling of feeling alone in our experience.

(07:55): So you've, you've named that really well. There's the loneliness, you know, I think like, I think what I've been most excited about to contribute to this field in my way has been you know, 10, 12 years ago, just sort of starting to take the stigma away of loneliness and say, that's actually like a wired message, your body sending you, that you were designed to give and receive more love. And so it's the same as if you were feeling hungry when your, you know, your stomach growls when you're hungry or your throat feels dry when you're thirsty, that loneliness is your body thing. I need some connection in my life. And I think most of us were just kind of trained to condition to ignore it because we were like, Oh, that can't be, I'm not lonely. I know tons of people and I'm a good person.

(08:35): And I have friends and we had like all these defense mechanisms. And I'm always quick to say, there's the loneliness that some people that we stereotype, like there are some people who are lonely for lack of interaction. You know, we think of somebody in a nursing home or, or somebody who just is, you know, secluded or isolated, but far more of us, our loneliness isn't from lack of interaction, but from lack intimacy, if we don't have the depth with a few people that really really matters and then like leaders and stuff, that's a whole nother level because you can feel like you have a few people you really really know, but if you don't feel like anyone else gets this thing you're going through, or a lot of people when we've had a death or a loss or some tragedy, it's like, we feel so alone in that experience. So you can even have close friends and still feel alone. It's such a subjective thing that your body is telling you, you want, you want it to be seen, you want to be supported. And it's a really beautiful thing to listen to.

(09:25): I can relate to that. So well personally, because my last corporate job, president of sales traveling every week and on the weekends, the owner and we super husband and super dad, and there was, I was sensing this loneliness. I really didn't know what it was. I, I thought maybe it was burnout. I thought maybe it was unhappiness at my job, which was all kind of contributing to it. And actually my code as we were talking was basically called me out in a, in a loving way. But almost like I had no friends is what the root of it was. You know, when we look at like even Jesus's life where even though he was out to the masses and the woman at the well and feeding the 5,000, we forget that a big part of his life was not only just the disciples, but of the 12, but he also had his close three that he spent most of his time with. And when that w when I was reminded of that, I was like, I could call a ton of guys to go get a beer, but they don't actually know what's going on in my life. So at that moment, I kind of put a stake in the ground and changed things. And now fast forward now it's totally different. You know, we've got a men's group. You've got, you got some different pieces of it, so I can relate because I've been on the other side.

(10:37): Yeah. And that was a very, very powerful testimony. Corey, I have to tell you, and I don't want to get off on this soap box per se, but loneliness. Yeah. It's affecting men at higher rates. And we, you know, so let me back up and even just say what we, what we can evaluate the health of any relationship. Often I teach in this book, it's three different things and we model and encourage and inspire and teach men to do two of these three. And so it's no it's

(11:03): All three. You Can, you absolutely can. And that's what bugs me so much is that men have as much capacity for intimate relationships with other men in platonic ways that are meaningful. We have conditioned men to basically not all men generally though, we have conditioned most men to rely only on romantic relationships as their place where they're vulnerable and where they're really, really close and intimate. Even that word, intimate

(11:28): Intimacy. When majority of men hear the word intimacy, they think

(11:33): It's synonymous with sex for them and for, yeah. And for, and for women too, we we've, we've done a huge disservice in our culture of saying, I, I used to be on for years. I was on this campaign of like, we all need more intimacy in our lives. And everybody's brains like sixth grade science. It was like, she's talking about sex. And I was like, no, it's, I've coined a new word. The second title, my second book is titled for intimacy, reminding us all that they're not synonymous. We need more platonic intimacy in our lives and men. This is, I, I think this is why men die younger than women. I think this is why men marry after death and divorce faster than women. And we get mad at them for that, you know, and yet the point is we've only told them it's okay to be really seen and really vulnerable in other, in other romantic relationships.

(12:15): And so women typically are allowed and conditioned and encouraged to have a lot more. We feel we're allowed to be seen in a lot more of our relationships. And men have as many skills have as much capacity and has as much need because intimate friendship is not a gender need as a human need. So your story is really perfect. And unfortunately, we, haven't done a good job as a culture of modeling that and really encouraging that. And so more men like you naming that and giving story to that is so, so, so important. So thank you for that.

(12:45): Yeah. Well, I want to know what are these three camps that you're going to share it, or at least the two only I can handle.

(12:53): So, you know, vulnerability. Yeah. So when we look at all the studies of what makes for a healthy team, what makes for a healthy marriage, what makes for me feel closer to somebody than another? Like what basically what bonds us, we can look at all the different things that social scientists are studying, and there's three common denominators. And so we can use different words for them, but every single thing is one of these three or an outcome of one of these three things. And so one is vulnerability. One is positivity, which is basically having more positive emotions than negative emotions. And the third one is consistency, which is repeating it, which is having shared experiences. And it's the time we log the history that we build. So I teach all three of them on a triangle. And at the bottom of the triangle is positivity, which is, we want to, you know, examples of that are empathy and validation.

(13:40): It's laughter it's jokes, it's pride, it's celebration, it's inspiration and, and cheering. And so anything that leaves us both feeling good. And then both arms up the triangle, our consistency and vulnerability. And I teach that as our consistency builds. So should our vulnerability match it? So the goal is never just to be completely vulnerable with all people, but neither is it to keep yourself hidden. So as we practice consistency and as we have more shared experiences, as we spend more time together, then so should we be sharing more of ourselves? And so every relationship starts at the bottom of the triangle and as it practices, these three things, some of those relationships move up to the top of the triangle and that's what builds the bond. And so we'll have relationships all up and down that triangle, you know, at work, we will probably have most of them in the bottom third or the middle of the triangle, hopefully at home, hopefully with a spouse, we have them at the top of the triangle, but what's really important here is we don't get to place anybody on this triangle just because we like them just because we have a certificate just because we work with them.

(14:38): We only move them up the triangle as we practice these three things. And so you can see quickly how it's easy to people can be married and not be practicing these three things. And so be still, you know, lower on the triangle than at the top. And vice versa, same with the workplace can bond too much or in different ways. The important thing is to know where your relationship is on that triangle and to practice these three things, to build the relationship that you want.

(14:59): Yeah, no, it's so good. And I, even, as I was drawing it out for myself just is that ladder climb. And so many people aren't vulnerable, especially on the male side of it. Is that the one that we're not very good at is that the,

(15:15): Yes, we've taught, we've taught men to do positivity and consistency, which is basically go out and have a good time on a regular basis. Right. And so go out and do activities, go watch games, go do stuff. And so we pray. We, we encourage you and allow you to do consistency and positivity. But I had one man come up to me at a book signing. I did a couple of years ago and he bless his heart. It was mostly women in the audience. And so he was standing in the bookshelves at Barnes and noble, and didn't want to come sit with all of these women. It's like he was standing over there and he just, just listening to the entire thing, standing there. And at the very end, after I'd signed all the books and all the women left, he came up to me and he just said, I don't know if I have good friends.

(15:51): And he said, and then of course I, of course I do. Of course I do. He's like, I do friendship better than any guy I know. And I still golf at the same force them. And I'd been in touch with my high school friends. I played poker once a month and you know, and he, and so he was like having this inner battle with himself that we all know different ways where it's like, he was trying to convince himself he had good friends and how bad he felt, even suggesting they weren't. And yet obviously standing there feeling something. And I said, so what's making you doubt it. And he said, you know, my wife has cancer and he goes, I'd give anything to have one of my guy friends. Just say, let's go grab dinner and let's just talk. But he's like, I can't just bring that up on the golf course, you know, and like have five minute conversations in between pets.

(16:26): And I can't just drop that a poker night, whenever all of the guys just sit there to blow off steam and have a good time. And, you know, I can't do that. And he just goes, I just, I don't have any good friends. Like nobody's going through this with me and they know about it, but he goes, I just wished I could do friendship like women. And I was like, it's not like women it's friendship. And it's just that we have not encouraged men to be vulnerable and actually have friendships where they're asking each other questions and sharing that. And every man I've talked to once it, like, I get so many emails from men who wanted, but it's a, it's a new muscle that has to be practiced. And, and I'll say women don't do this perfectly either. I think women's mistake is often the other side. They think that if they just share everything really fast, it will bond them. And that we are going to make just as much of a mistake, oversharing and trying to move up that triangle too fast when the structure and the scaffolding of consistency aren't there yet. So this isn't something women, you know, we probably struggle with positivity. More like we, this isn't something that we do fringe it better than men, but we have been allowed to practice vulnerability more than men. Yeah.

(17:23): Jeannine there's even some headwinds on the female front of be independent, stand up for yourself. And now, now that goes against vulnerability. Cause you, you gotta be strong and independent. So it's interesting. No I've noticed in my own life and this sounds so harsh, but I don't have time in my life to sit around and talk about the weather stocks, my, you know, golf game sports. I mean, I, I will

(17:50): Maybe as an icebreaker, but it's got to go, it's got to go a little deeper quicker, cause I don't have time for it. And that's, what's so fun about campfires and hanging around because you can do just that. And that individually mentioned it's the golf game. Walking was probably a lot of talking about the weather and complaining about politics and this situation over here that, so I'm right with you.

(18:13): You know what? I've never, I've never had a single person say to me, they want the small talk. Like that's all that they want. And that that's the most fulfilling. I mean, at the end of the day, what we all want is to be seen. I'll keep repeating myself to be seen in a safe and satisfying way. And you'll maybe you'll make the connection. So we're seeing when we practice vulnerability, which is one of the three requirements. We don't want to just practice vulnerability, unless it feels safe when they need the relationship is trustworthy and reliable. And that happens when we're consistent and when it feels satisfying, we only want to share and be consistent if it's going to feel good and leave us feeling better. And that happens with positivity. And so you see the three requirements showing back up in there. I've never met anyone who doesn't want to go to where you're, where you're describing and yet and yet we're scared of it, you know?

(18:54): And it's the thing that we're most afraid of. And it's the thing that takes practice. I always say, it's like a muscle at the gym. You would go to the gym and you wouldn't stop working out because you would say, Oh, this is kind of strenuous. Or like, Oh, I'm starting to sweat. Or this is hard. And you wouldn't say, Oh, I must not. I shouldn't be doing this bad for me. On the contrary, you go to the gym and you expect your muscles to feel strained and you expect to sweat. And you know that that's doing good things for you. Like we understand that our physical health requires us to push ourselves. And yet when it comes to our emotional relational health, I'm shocked at how many times we like go and it's awkward. And it's like, Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. And we just pull away and like, no, you only grow by staying on the, you know, staying in the gym, getting on the mat like that is where you do the muscular works so we can do,

(19:37): Yeah, we can do this. Hello. This is Corey Carlson. Thank you very much for listening to this podcast. I greatly appreciate it. If things that we're saying or you're hearing what the guests are talking about and you want to see how it can apply to your life and you want to dive deeper into the content. And I invite you to visit my website at Cory M Carlson to learn more about my coaching program, what I'm doing for clients like you and how it can help you start winning boat at home and at work and living in life to the full. So thank you very much for listening and back to today's episode. Thank you. So a lot of the complaints I get from executives and clients that I work with is that I don't have time. And so for you, as you launch your third book, married have kids, you are busy, you have your demands. So how are you finding time for dates with your husband for time with kids, for these intimate friendships? How do you manage it amongst your busy schedule?

(20:44): That's a very good question. It's something switched in me a couple years ago where I just, I don't know if it's reading all this research. I'm sure that had a huge effect. And I think it's come from a place of a lot of personal awareness. Like I've studied my temperament and like kind of how I'm wired a lot, something switched and all of that, where I just got really clear that there's just nothing that matters more than relationship. And I, and I don't hold the belief anymore that I have to put in a certain number of hours of work. I don't even feel guilty for not putting in full days. So to me, it's very much about you know, I wake up every morning, my husband and I, we, we, we drink coffee together and talk, we go do our yoga and let me be clear.

(21:24): I don't have kids at home right now. They're all grown up. But yeah, this is so we can, we have the luxury of spending a ton of time together and making sure that it counts and is meaningful and that we're seeing each other. And we're just sharing questions and we're asking each other what, what we most want to experience today and what are our priorities today. And we, you know, we eat lunch together and we go for long walks. At the end of the day, we work from home as so many people do these days and we always have, but, but we go on to cook. We commute home every day, we leave the office and we go for a walk, our 10,000 steps together, out in the neighborhoods and talk and share our highlight and our low light from the day. And my, my marriage is, is the most important thing in my life and all my friends.

(22:00): And I know who my, I know who's at the top of that triangle for me. I I'm very clear. I'm not trying to stay in touch with every person in the world. I'm very clear who the people are that are my priority. That means they, I say yes to them, even when I'm on book tour. That means like, I know that those are the people that my job is to stay in touch with. And so when I'll just say this statistically dr. Niven wrote the book a hundred secrets that happy people know. And he said that he took all the research from all the happiness studies out there. And he said, he has a quote where he says, you know, some people think it's kind of ambivalent, like what makes us happy? And he said, it's not at all. He said, 70% of our happiness comes down to our relationships.

(22:39): So 70% that just comes back to remind me that everything else we think we need that promotion, that car, that money, that sale, that close, that deal, that whatever, that ideal body weight, that, that school acceptance, like all the things we think will make us happy. Add up to 30%. Like if you don't believe data and research, then I, you know, I mean, but I do. And that's something where I'm just like, that is, that is some serious information. So don't waste our time going after the 30%, when we can focus more of our time on the place that matters the most. So I'm very clear on that

(23:14): Coaching framework we use a lot in is the five capitals. And number one is spiritual love God. And number two is relational, love others, and spending time with them. And then down the bottom, number five is, is financial. So it's, you know, it's spiritual, relational, physical, intellectual, and financial, that financial piece. So many people put that at the top. It's about money. It's about profits, about corner office, my job title, all of these pieces, but it does not yield the happiness that as you just mentioned, the 70% from relationships. So I completely agree.

(23:48): I was gonna say, what's so powerful about what you just said is that we, if we really were to strip back why we think we need that money, why do we think we need that corner office? Why we think we need those things. It's the end of the day. It's always a, I want to be good enough. I want to believe others think I'm good enough. Like it always comes down to wanting to be accepted. Like we may not use that word, but it has to do with proving to ourselves and others that we're good and lovable. And if you could, if we can see it for that, for what it is to me, I'm just like, why go through all those hoops? Hoping that at the end, we can prove her lovable when we can just go straight to somebody else and like be lovable. Like, I think there's a lot of gymnastics. We play trying to get all these things and think that we're going to be more lovable at the end of that. And there's no guarantee, but if we just show up and help somebody feel seen, and in a supportive way, we have a much, much higher likelihood of feeling that lovable nest that I think we crave.

(24:38): So with guaranteeing, a lot of things have happened. A lot of our different lives routines have been added. Maybe some routines have been pruned for you. What have you added into your life that you don't want it to go away? That you've just enjoyed. It's a new rhythm, a new mindset or perspective that has just been super helpful to you in your life.

(24:57): Yeah, that's a great question. So one that just jumps out at me immediately is I have a group of there's five of us women, and we have been friends for 20 years and we get together every year for a girls' weekend. And I see them when I travel. And so I see them a couple of other times a year, and I would have told you, these are like some of my dearest, Nero's like, I'm so vulnerable. I would have said they're top of the triangle friends, but we didn't have the consistency. We have so much consistency builds up that I can just step into intimacy whenever I want with them. But this quarantine, the very beginning, the first week we all went in, we were like, let's jump on the phone and connect. And we got on zoom, the five of us. And then we were like, let's do it for the whole, all three weeks.

(25:36): Remember when we all thought three weeks before it's going to be like three weeks, we're going to be good. We're like, let's support each other through this, you know? And like, okay. And six months later, weekly zoom calls and regular Marco Polo's which is just short video clips through an app that we so basically these are women. I would've said were top of the triangle. And in the last six months, it went above and beyond as be that frequent with some of the people I love the most allows us to actually support each other in real time, as opposed to only update each other about what happened after the fact. And it has been a game changer, like I've loved having that kind of consistency with them and it's paid off in big, big, big, big ways. So I think like that's one of those things where I knew I could have called them.

(26:20): I had incredible intimacy with them and vulnerability, but to have that kind of frequency to set up an established routine has been a game changer. And I'll say with my husband, we have done a more intentional job of pulling out a feeling and emotion chart and looking at different feelings and practicing, naming them throughout our day. We always have our favorite question at the end of a is always like what's our highlight and low light from our week. And we share that with each other, but to actually then name we're doing more at naming emotions, we are noticing that we were feeling more tired and more worried and stuff like that as so many of us are in during the pandemic.

(26:56): My 16 year old daughter started this a while ago and she does a color code per day of her emotions. And it actually, it's not it's it's surprised, disappointed. It's just, it's really cool. But I look forward. I will go see, and then I'll be like, Hey, three days ago you were kind of sad. What happened? I tried to get nosy. He's probably gonna hide that piece of paper. So I don't see

(27:25): That is so beautiful. That's emotional intelligence right there though. When you look at emotional intelligence, it's the ability to name those emotions and that's so, so, so powerful. So what a, what a beautiful daughter that isn't and for her to feel seen by you, I'm sure is not something that she doesn't, that she dislikes. So that's awesome.

(27:41): It's been fun. We, we did a, a, a date yesterday, a little back to school. They have some coffee and talk, which is something, try to do back to your word loneliness and that idea of you know, 61%. And I know we all feel lonely at different times. I know for sure, I do as well. What do you do to recalibrate when you find yourself going in that font, not getting the dopamine hits from whether it's book sales or walk with your husband or just whatever it may be, what are you doing to recalibrate to get you away from that feeling of loneliness?

(28:17): Beautiful question. And let's see, and I love that you pointed that out. It's really important to clarify. Loneliness is a healthy emotion that we all feel on a regular basis where we start talking about loneliness, killing people, or loneliness being unhealthy is if we ignore the need. So the same as being hungry, isn't bad for your health, but if you don't get that hunger met, it is very bad for your health. You start starving and you're getting malnourished. And so when we talk about you know, health numbers, and I can throw a few out, I mean, if you feel chronically lonely, meaning you aren't getting that need met on a regular basis, it's as harmful to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, it's worse for you than not exercising or not eating well, it's worse than not exercising. It's you know, it's the worst than being obese.

(28:56): It's twice as harmful as being a lifelong alcoholic. So this is like the issue for our health, but it's not bad just to feel it it's bad to ignore it. And so, yeah. Great, great clarification on your end when I start feeling it, it's an immediate way for me to go in and say, huh, that's interesting because I have great relationships, you know? So like, what am I lonely for? And I think it's a really self-reflective question that each of us need to get better at doing as opposed to just ignoring it or mislabeling it, speaking back to your daughter and people naming their emotions, right? Most of us will call it hunger or we'll call it boredom, or we call it burnout or we call it other things. And if we don't actually name it as loneliness, we're less likely to do the right things that feed that hunger.

(29:36): So naming it and then checking in with myself. And I usually ask the best way for me is, is there something in me that wants to be seen right now? And if so, by whom and often it's like, Oh yeah, I, I didn't want, I wanted to share this with my husband or I'm not feeling seen or validated in this area, or maybe I want to share this with my friends, you know? And so that's kind of a way in for me to start naming, like, where am I lonely? Like what in me once? And that helps me identify who I want to connect to. And sometimes, honestly, Corrie it's sometimes it's a relationship to myself and, you know, or to God, it's like sometimes it's, my loneliness often might be, I need to just step away and do some journaling and just spend some more time, like centering myself and being in the relationship with myself or in relationship with God.

(30:22): So I think it's a little bit like when we're hungry. I mean, it's a, it's not a perfect metaphor, but to say I'm hungry. Okay, what am I hungry for? You know? And unfortunately you just can't grab the potato chips all the time like that won't leave you nourished. And so we have to kind of do the hard work of saying, what is my body craving right now? And, and what does it need in order to feel fulfilled? And that will look different on each of us, but that's a, that's one of the really important things about being an adult and maturing and learning to check in on, check in on where that's at. And, and once I taught the triangle to people what's really cool is that I can guarantee everybody listening, that you have never built a healthy, meaningful relationship without practicing those three things.

(31:02): And I can also guarantee that any relationship in your life, that's not feeling fulfilling it's because at least one of those three things is in left. So sometimes we're lonely and it's not that we need to go meet more people it's that we have our relationship in our life that might not be experiencing all three of those things. And so sometimes our loneliness says, I feel lonely because I just got off the phone with a friend and it was really vulnerable. And we talk often, but I don't feel positivity, you know? So they had vulnerability and consistency, but not positivity. And so, yeah, I feel lonely because that wasn't really all that fulfilling. I don't feel better. And so we, we can start actually doing evaluation reflection to say, which of these three things is not showing up in them, in my relationship

(31:40): Hearing a little bit of your story Shasta, where you were a pastor now you've transitioned and here you are, you've authored three books. I love talking to people who have made bold moves, and even the idea of if God called you into that, this idea of handing over your story for a greater story, how has that transpired in your life? I mean, maybe it's not even any of the events I mentioned, but there was a moment where you just, like, you had the hand over your story for a greater story, because that's a big part of my testimony. So I'd love to just hear what what resonates with you on that.

(32:13): Hmm. Yeah, so many, I certainly have, yeah, like marriage stories of needing to needing to receive grace, learning how to receive grace for a bigger story. And then when you were just mentioning the career thing and the jump over, that was a big one for me, because when I first started feeling more and more called as the language I used felt more and more called to deal with the loneliness in the world and how few people were actually coming to church to get that loneliness met and how many people would come to church and still not get it met. We were like having pseudo communities and a lot of places. Yeah. For me to actually start feeling more called to go outside of the church walls, I felt like I was leaving the ministry. Honestly, it was a really hard call. It was a really hard thing to do.

(32:59): And and it would probably be a year later before it just kind of all hit me in a really obvious way. That just seems so obvious now. But at the time it felt like I had to leave something. And yeah, it was a big deal to have it all kind of be like, I'm doing the same things now I'm using different language and I'm talking to different people, but I have always believed that spiritual growth, personal health and relational health, they all have, they have to happen together. You can't do one apart from the other. So to me, it was this big moment where I was like, I'm still doing this. Like, I'm still like an under I say, undercover pass or not because there's like a hidden agenda, undercover pastor, meaning I'm still out there like connecting people and growing their personal growth and saying, here's how we show up in the world that to produce love and to feel love and receive love. This is what I've always been about. And yeah, kind of trusting, trusting and letting go of my own picture of what ministry looked like and trusting that listening to that inner prompting was definitely letting go. And yeah, I, I love, I love, love, love what I'm doing now.

(34:01): Yeah. That's, that's fantastic. And so do I, so that's neat. What I liked about what you said is you're doing some of the same things that you did in so-called ministry. So many listeners need to hear that from the standpoint of I'll get people to get frustrated. Like, I don't know how to integrate my faith, or I don't know how to push forward in this. And it's that idea of no, just showing up and leading, you can still run your company and have significant kingdom impact and, or just your team or your neighborhood or your family, whatever it may be. And I love those stories where people have actually left ministry and gone and done something like what you're doing and having crazy impact. So it just, hopefully it gives some people that, that vote of confidence of, Hey, you can stay in your lane, but just the different perspective will allow you to have greater impact.

(34:50): Yeah. Well, my husband says he was really good for me. He was really good at saying, remember, your calling is separate from your role or your job at any given time. And my calling, if I were to look back at my whole life, my calling is creating community. It's bringing people together and like helping create love, but I can do that as a pastor. That's like one hat I could wear, like, that's one vehicle I could drive, but I left that vehicle and changed vehicles, but my calling didn't change. Like that's so separating out the difference between like, what am I here to do? And I could actually leave talking about this and go take another job. And I would still be living at the same calling like that. I'm very clear now what I'm here to do and where my passion and skills and experience line up. But yeah, we can change roles. Like I don't have my identity caught up in my role or my identity, you know, in the same thing. And this job is me need calling is me. And this job might be one way. I live out this calling right now, one expression of it right now, but it's not it's there's it was really helpful for me to see the difference between those two. Does that make sense?

(35:47): It makes all the sense in the world, because for me, when I helped, I agree with calling, but also a vision statement. My vision statement is to help connect people to greater performance, even more significant purpose. And I have done a podcast about it before, but can share it in the show notes, using a framework of five piece is in those five PS, whether it's, you know, it's purpose as passion, personality, possessions, or problems, you've overcome using those five PS to construct that vision or that calling that what you feel you've been uniquely wonderfully made to pursue for God. Then that is extremely helpful. So, no, I love that it, the vehicle changes, but not necessarily, you know, where you're headed. So it's just how you're, how you're going to get there. That's, that's so cool.

(36:31): And I think, and I think a lot of pastors, especially, and probably other careers too, but pastors it's like, we think we're called to be a pastor. Like we get so caught up in the job or the role or the vehicle when really that's just one vehicle. We can live out our calling in many different ways. And I get opportunities now that I would never be able to get otherwise if I had the title of pastor, you know? And so it's really trusting, not being willing to let go of like that title or that thing we think we need as for identity. And just saying, there's something bigger, there's a bigger story. Like letting go of this story or this identity or this title in order to trust that my life, it will be. Yeah. There's something bigger here than this one title.

(37:08): Yeah. Well, this has been so fun. I could keep talking. I'm just getting all kinds of questions and we may have to do a part two, but for now I how can listeners get ahold of you to learn more? And what's the best way for them to,

(37:24): Yeah. I'm on all the social media of course, and active there. So come follow me Shasta in from Michelle Shasta, M Nelson on Facebook and LinkedIn, I do weekly YouTube videos and I'm on Instagram and come follow or connect or whatever on any of those, that'd be fabulous. And in the business of friendship.com is the best place to right now that, so this is my first friendship book on for coed, which we were talking about men's relationships earlier. And it's my first book in the business section. So really, really addressing where we spend most of our time and how to build those relationships. And you can get all of that@thebusinessoffriendship.com and there's also a toolkit and all kinds of free, free things there. So that's probably the other, the second best place to go to, to get everything you need.

(38:06): That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the winter home first podcast, Shasta. I really appreciate it.

(38:12): Thanks for the good work you're doing. This is super, this is a, this is the right thing. This is, we all need to make sure our relationships are first. This is our happiness is our health is our wellbeing. This is, this is our company's success, our family's success. So you're, you have branded well, my friends.

(38:30): Oh, thanks. Thank you very much. I want to thank

(38:36): You for listening to my podcast. When at home first, I am so grateful to hear from listeners like you, that this content has been helpful. So now I would love for you to pay it forward. I want to get this message in the hands of more listeners. We need leaders to be winning both at home and at work, especially during this time. So please take a minute to share this episode with somebody you think would find value in it, as well as rate and subscribe as a thank you, please visit my website@coriumcarlson.com to download a free resource that people are finding value in. Thank you very much.

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