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In this episode, you’ll discover…

  • Why eliminating the word “pivot” from your vocabulary will help you achieve even more as 2020 comes to an end (3:36)
  • How to minister to others without quitting your job to work for a church (6:19)
  • Common misconceptions about leaders in the Bible and how it holds you back from your full potential (9:18)
  • A critical focus area everyone can work on for healing racial tension in society (12:41)
  • The insidious way we validate racism with our behavior without it (14:28)
  • How society’s approach to fighting smoking can also combat racism (17:25)
  • A “Shifty” method for getting more out of your date night and talking about something other than the kids for once (28:43)
  • Why “social distancing” does long-term damage to relationships (30:34)

Are you crushing it at work but struggling at home? If you want to learn how to win at home, then go to https://CoryMCarlson.com and download your free copy of “10 Ways To Win At Home.”

Read Full Transcript

Welcome to the win at home first podcast. I'm your host, Corey Carlson. This podcast is where we talk about how successful business leaders win, not only at work, but also at home. On this podcast, we will go behind the scenes with great leaders to hear stories of how they win. Thank you for listening and on to today's episode.

Hello, this Corey. I'm so excited for you to hear this podcast episode with Chuck Mingo. Wow. It is a good one. We talk about his transition from corporate America, being at Proctor and gamble and into being a pastor and how his thought process and the process could help you with the big decision you may be making. We always talk about race. Chuck is black. I am white. We talk about the initiative he has launched called undivided,

(00:49): And just how race, how we can win

(00:52): First when we talk about regular kids and with our spouses. And so it's a great conversation. We also talk about the intentionality with our kids and our spouses during this time of quarantine and how to win at home. First. It's an awesome episode. I took tons of notes while we talk. I hope you enjoyed as much as I did and onto today's episode. Thank you very much. Hello. This is Cory Carlson. You're listening to the win at home first podcast today. I'm so excited to have Chuck Mingo as a guest. He is a pastor, the church I go to, but he has such an interesting perspective because he also spent time in corporate America at Proctor and gamble. And then he has been a pastor crossroads for 13 years. He also has this entrepreneurial spirit where he has helped launch undivided, which we'll talk about, which is a group that's really trying to bring different races and socioeconomics together and bring in unity, but yet also talk about the differences. And so that is launching and he has been a big key part of that. So all kinds of neat things that Chuck brings plus married has kids. He's not only winning at work, but also winning at home. So it's so cool to have you on here. Chuck,

(02:01): I'm so glad to be here, man. It's always great to get, to spend time with you and have a conversation about something. And I know we both care about which is our families and win at home first, so happy to be here.

(02:11): Well, awesome. Thank you. Why on that? What do you see from just maybe in your own lives, your ups and downs that you've had in baseball as other leaders? Like what is the kind of that key leadership trait that you need to have to win at home as well as in your profession?

(02:25): Wow. Well, first of all, I mean, I think we are seeing that so clearly in 2020 is crazy up and down year that we're all having and experiencing across the world. Quite frankly, I just keep thinking about humility and adaptability. Those are kind of the two things that just continue to resonate with me. And I, and I start with humility quite frankly, as a reminder to myself that I'm not as smart as I think I am and that I need God and I need guidance and wisdom, particularly in uncertain times. And so that kind of humility, I think, is really important for, for leaders at any level. And certainly at home, I mean, I'm just amazed at how much my wife and my kids will teach me if I'm listening, how much they will show me how to be a good leader of our family. If I have the humility to just open my eyes and pay attention. And I just think 2020 has been a year where all of us have had to adapt, right? We all have plans. We all thought about things the way they were pre COVID and postcode. That's calling, causing all of us to pit it. I, you know, every year, I think at the end of the year, they retire certain words from the English language because they've been overused. I think pivot has to be on the chopping block

(03:35): Pivot and then a disruption, you know, how are you going to disrupt your business? What's going to take place. Yeah. Right. Pivot and disruption. That's good. There's a lot of things I was looking forward to talking to you about on this one was making that change from corporate America, into being a pastor and kind of how that took place. You know, part of my story is leaving my corporate America job and then going into this coaching. And so, but I'd love to just hear your spec of how it happened. I mean, cause you were on a rocket ship to go up, you know, the Proctor and gamble ladder and the money and the title to all of a sudden say no. And obviously now crossroads is huge and you're, you know, the church is a big deal, your big deal. So it was like, Oh, well that makes sense. But it wasn't like that when you first made the jump and take us back there, if you could. Cause I know there's a lot of listeners who contemplate big decisions like that, but they don't know how to do it and to get other people's perspectives big.

(04:32): Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I think it's always important when I share my story. You know how it is. It's so easy for it to sound very quick, right? Like, you know, God called me, I left and now all of a sudden I'm a part of this incredible church and God doing amazing things. And that is, that really is not the whole story. So Corey, the truth is it was really a four year journey for me to come to a place and I would put it this way to become the person that could answer the call to ministry because really that's what was happening over those four years. I literally had four different conversations with crossroads over a four year period about four different roles. And every time I said no, because God was forming something in me, the first of those was quite frankly, I had an unchecked addiction and I've talked about that very openly and I needed healing.

(05:19): I really needed to, to recover and to have a level of health and wholeness that I had not yet attained and still am on a journey to attain, right? I mean, it's an ongoing process of recovery and wholeness and healing. And so God really used that to get me to a place of brokenness and recognize my need. And so again, making me into the kind of person who would be able to answer this call. And then as I think about the other three years and conversations that happened quite frankly, it really became a journey of faith and trust where God stripped me of this praising of being a pastor. You know, I grew up in a family, I'd tell people, being a pastor was more esteemed in my family to being a doctor, a lawyer. I grew up in a family of pastors. And so there was a part of me that felt like, boy, if I could pass her to big church, then in my family's eyes, I will have arrived.

(06:04): And I think God really stripped me of that. And this hopefully is an encouragement to many of the folks who listen to your podcast, who are still in corporate America. God made it very clear that you can be in ministry, right where you are. And interestingly for me, over that next season at Proctor and gamble, I got a chance to see two of my coworkers come to faith. I got to baptize one of them. I got to see God use me in the corporate setting to be a person of faith. I was, I was leading a prayer group at P and G. Like there were just a lot of cool things that God was doing in the corporate setting. And it just helped me recognize, like you don't have to leave and be a vocational pastor to be in ministry. We're all called right where we are to do that. But ultimately it did become a journey of who has God made me to be, what are the gifts and talents and passions that he's put inside of me. And at the, at that point I got asked to do a role that was, I just felt like it was exactly what God was calling me to. And it was that leap of faith. I mean, I looked at the spreadsheet, I tried to make the numbers match up and they didn't match up.

(07:04): And and it came down to, I really believe this. And it's funny because I think this is relevant today. For me, I felt like God got to a point with me where he said, you are free. You are free to step into this in faith where you are free to stay, where you are in corporate. But if the only reason you're not going to step out is because of fear. You got to wrestle with what that says about what you truly believe about me. What kind of relationship do we really have and not out of guilt, but really out of a God, I don't want to choose trust. That's what made me step away from corporate PNG and step into the calling that God had for me, which at the time I couldn't have envisioned that it would include the things that it now includes. I left then I was leading our onsite groups, right. You know, I was getting to do training and teaching. I was doing some preaching and that was great. And I, you know, undivided, it hadn't happened yet. Obviously the things that I'm doing, I'm from even a community and campus pastor hadn't happened yet. But God really used that journey to the teach me what it looks like to step out in faith and trust him for the adventure he asked for my life.

(08:05): Wow. That's awesome. I haven't even heard parts of that story. That's really cool. And so as you were doing it, it almost kind of an idea of open doors. I'm just going to keep going, go forward. And I'm going to, where this fertile soil is where the open door is kind of whatever the phrase is. You're just going to keep going. So you just were, I'll use a lot with clients of, Hey, what do you want in the future? And then how can you pull your future forward for you as like, all right, I think I want this. So I'm just going to kind of keep pulling it forward and taking some more responsibility and then just see what happens. And that sounds like a lot of what you were doing cause responsibilities were increasing throughout that story.

(08:43): Absolutely. And that's what I mean, like it's so easy to hear a story like mine and think about it as one fell swoop, but we know those are the kinds of changes that happen day by day, moment by moment. Yes. By guests choice by choice. And that very much was the journey. God still has me on today, you know?

(08:59): Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. You said, it seems like when you hear these stories, it's like overnight success and it's funny because that's the kind of how the Bible stories it's like Moses sees a burning Bush, toxic God, and now he's off.

(09:13): And the guy was 80 years old at that point. Like we forget that, you know,

(09:18): That is true. That is true. Always. Yeah. Whenever people are like, am I too old to do some of my career? And they always have like Colonel Sanders started KFC at 72 and they have this Moses, it needs to be on that list. You can be old to start something new. Hey man. Well, that's awesome. And been fun shifting to something you did mention, I mentioned again, it's undivided. You just give some listeners are aware of undivided, but for those that are outside of Cincinnati area, they are unfamiliar with it. Would you just share with undivided is

(09:49): Absolutely. And we, and we hope that those outside of Cincinnati become more familiar with it over time. Cause we're trying to reach more across the country with it, but yeah, in the, in the, in the spike of, and it feels like there's never not been a moment where there's been a spike in racial tension in our country, but about five years ago, we were having another one of those moments as a country. If you think about Trayvon Martin and Ferguson, Missouri, and then there was a series of things that were happening across the country. In that moment, God really called me again and said, Hey, it's time to step out on faith and be a voice for racial reconciliation and healing. And really the thing that I grew more convicted of and still am is that the church unfortunately, was on the sidelines in a conversation where quite frankly, we have the DNA to be on the front lines.

(10:32): And so we found on divided, it's a six week journey, spiritual journey where people get in groups across racial lines and we talk history, we talk empathy. And then we talk the power of our faith. And what does it look like to lean into things like, you know, the Bible talks about repentance and this idea that we can change and forgiveness. What does that look like? And then what does it look like to own? And really have a context for the systematic way that injustice has happened in our city. And she's a people of faith and get involved. You don't just use our head in our heart, but actually use our hands. And so undivided, it's been really impactful in our crossroads community where we've had over 5,000 people go through it. We've had a thousand inmates do it in Ohio correctional institutions and it's building relationships across cultural lines there. We've had a dozen churches across the country do it. And so now we're preparing to take it beyond what it's been today in the midst of COBIT, right? Which means we're trying to create a digital version of it, which we're going to complete later this year so that we can take it to scale and bring it to not just churches, but organizations who want to be bridge builders in a time where we are so divided as a country.

(11:36): Chuck, why do you think undivided working versus other things that have been tried for racial, racial reconciliation? I mean, is it that it's six weeks? Is it the faith component? I mean, what is the reason that you think it's working? Because I know many people have gone through it who say they just absolutely loved it. And, and so why is it working for those that are thinking about pulling it into their own church?

(12:00): Absolutely. And I'll be honest and say too, you know, and it's like anything. If we find opportunities to grow it and improve it as well. But I do think the two things you mentioned, I think are key. We would say spiritual transformation is the secret sauce. Like the reality is racism is a spiritual issue. I really believe that. And even if you're not a person who has a spiritual frame, when I say that, what I mean is racism is an internal issue that has all kinds of external ramifications in our culture. And so we've got to deal with the hearts of people in order for turns to happen. We've all been in corporate America and done diversity and inclusion workshops where quite frankly, oftentimes it's like checking a box, right? You go, cause you gotta go. You're told to be there. One of the powerful things with undivided is we only want people to come who opt in.

(12:46): We're not forcing us down anybody's throat, right? If you feel like this is a journey you want to be on that you opt in. And so all of a sudden there's a level of buy in. That's powerful, spiritual transformation is powerful. And I do believe six weeks. There's a powerful thing that happens when you journey over time. And we've learned this at crossroads where, you know, it's why we teach in series. It's why when we do our kind of concentrated thing, we call a journey every year. It's, you know, get people in individual work and small groups and hearing messages is that motivate them to keep moving through a process. I think that's just something about spiritual transformation and change. Any time things need to marinate.

(13:20): Yeah. And it's good. This is more of a selfish question. And, but I think it would resonate with listeners if I'm white and I've got three kids, obviously you're black and you have kids. And what is, can't answer this just in a few questions, but maybe you can just help us. What has been your recommendation of a, how do we win at home first racially? Like how do we talk about it? What do we do? And Chuck not excited to say this, but I was that more passive leader in this because I didn't think that I, well, I mean, I didn't think I was racist or, you know, I wasn't doing anything, but I've been listening. I've been consuming information on this and realizing I will also, wasn't very vocal about it. So I was, I was becoming somewhat this passive. And so we've upped our game in our houses.

(14:12): Some are talking about it and just talking about racism, doing, you know, and so it's been cool, but I thought I was doing okay. Cause I wasn't saying, you know, bad things, but realizing I also wasn't even talking about it. So don't like saying all that, but that's the reality. So for you, what is some of the things that you've seen other families do? Or what would help us myself and just other listeners who are white? I mean, I guess it doesn't matter what color you are. We got to figure this out, but I'm just hear from you.

(14:41): I want to encourage you because I think there's a lot of people who were, where you were maybe still are where you were and it's easy to feel stuck or paralyzed or to feel like I'm too late getting on the train. What can I really do now? And I love that. What you did is you recognize that you made a change, just like anything else in our businesses. Anything else we're trying to grow in in life? We recognize the gap. We go to the gap, right? We can go to the gap and we say, Hey, how can we make a difference? How can we disrupt?

(15:08): Right, right. We just want to pivot.

(15:11): Right. You know, so we use those words and I think that's really important. Here are the things that I would encourage people around. And I think are really powerful ways. Moving forward. Number one is I do think that so much of this starts at home and starts with how we shape, inform our kids. So in the same way that I want my kids to have a spiritual foundation of their faith, I think that we all, no matter the color of our skin can help our kids have a cultural foundation, simple things like what are the children's books that I read to my kids? You know, when they're a kid, like, am I, am I intentionally thinking about representing a diversity of colors and backgrounds and contexts who are the heroes that I elevate in the eyes of my kids? What, what are the, what's the short list of movies that I want them to see?

(15:55): Yes. Braveheart is on my list, even though I'm not Scottish. Right. You know, but what else is on my list that would be different in terms of cultures. So remember the Titans is also on my list, right? Because there's a powerful story of people coming across racial minds. I mean, my kids are going to watch some of those movies. And so I think all of those are ways that we can, as, as parents begin to shape and form our kids in this conversation around race. And here's the thing, I would also say, Corey, and this is not unique to me. I heard this from many Martin Freeman who works for a great organization called the racial equity Institute. We, as a society have to believe that racism is everyone's problem. And it harms everyone for us to really see change. And the example that I will give you, which is really fascinating to think about is smoking. So Cory, I know this is true for you and me given our context when I moved to Cincinnati, not even when I was a kid, when I moved to Cincinnati, if I went into a restaurant downtown, when I went to the server to ask to be seated, what was the first question they asked you smoking or not smoking or not. Right. Think about that. When's when's the last time you got that question at a restaurant,

(17:04): Man, I don't even know anymore, right? Yeah. That's right. It's not allowed, right? Yeah. It's not a lie

(17:11): In a generation. We change the way society viewed smoking. And the real pivot point was secondhand smoke. When we got this idea that it doesn't just harm the smoker, but secondhand smoke harms everyone. It completely flipped how society thought about smoking. And I have a hope that particularly in this moment, when we're having a reckoning on race that we could get to that same idea that we could recognize that everybody is harmed by secondhand racism, even if it's not firsthand. And that we could rally as a people in a group and a society and say, we need to, we need to read our society of this in all of the ways that it still has vestiges in our culture. Again, I'm not pie in the sky guy that thinks that's all gonna happen immediately or automatically. But boy, if we can get around that vision and kind of have that common mindset, we can make progress. And I'm hopeful in this time that that's happening.

(18:00): I love that metaphor. I mean, that is, that's incredible. That comparison. Yeah. That would be neat. Well, to take it a step further, I know in my own house with the smoking, like my kids, especially when they're younger, they would see a smoker and it was like, they were this huge city.

(18:16): That's right. They are smoking.

(18:20): Yeah. How dare they? And it's like, hold up. I mean, you know, please don't go smoking, but it's not that bad. You know? And it is crazy how that has carried on to our kids. I think it's the worst thing in the world. And it's like, unbelievable. Your examples were fantastic. And as you were saying, I'm trying to respond to God. What's the book, what's the movie. What's, you know, what am I doing?

(18:43): Right. Doing the analysis on it. And let me add this because this is also probably the even simpler and more powerful than those who you're having around your dinner table, which is really strange to talk about in a COBIT I understand. But at some point, hopefully it will start having people around our dinner tables again. And we obviously all are, but you know, for me and my wife has been really important that our kids are exposed to a broad range of people in close relationship to our family. And that's been a huge help for my kids culturally, to have friends who come from very different ethnic backgrounds, socioeconomic backgrounds. And I think that's something that we can, we can manage when we first did undivided I'll share this statistic 1200 people did it tip of the spear people who wanted to be in this movement.

(19:25): We asked a simple question. Have you ever had a person of a different race over to your house for dinner? And nearly 50% of that group of people had not. These are people who attend the same church, pretty diverse. You go to Oakley. So pretty diverse church and people who've gone on mission trips together. People who have done all kinds of things, but yet nearly 50% of them had still never broken bread at their dinner table with people who look different from them. And so I think that just speaks to the challenge we have in our divided society to become undivided. But if we can be intentional around that, then we can.

(19:59): Yup. Yup. That's good. That's really good. A lot of those things, I mean, I know, I know I've got some work to do as I took it first. And so I appreciate that. Some of the simple things you shared were fantastic and awesome. Hello, this is Corey Carlson. Thank you very much for listening to this podcast. I greatly appreciate it. If things that we're saying or you're hearing what the guests are talking about and you want to see how it can apply to your life and you want to dive deeper into the content. And I invite you to visit my website at Corey M Carlson to learn more about my coaching program, what I'm doing for clients like you and how it can help you start winning both at home and at work and living the life to the full. So thank you very much for listening and back to today's episode. Thank you. Quarantine is changing law for all of us, both good and bad. You and I, before we hit record, we were talking about some of those items for you and your family. What has changed? That's been good and you want to hold on to it. Well, I do the forever, but you know, what's happened personally. Maritally and as with the kids that you're just like, I want more of this going forward,

(21:17): Man. I'm so glad you asked that question. And in transparency, I have to tell you that the first three to four weeks of quarantine were probably the hardest weeks. Certainly [inaudible] they were really, really hard marriage. And I would also say, as a family, everything had been disrupted. I'm trying, I'll try not to be too long winded with this, but I still remember. So March 13th, Friday the 13th, that was the last day my kids went to school and they were going on spring break and we had plans to go to great Wolf lodge, which is an indoor water park place here in town. And we're, we were gonna go down to Nashville and kind of do some things, nothing major, but just kind of have a bit of fun. And I remember watching as great with lodge, send out the email said, sorry, you can't come. We're shutting it down. We're sending your money back and looking at all the things we couldn't do in Nashville and realizing like we're home. And at that point, I think all of us were like, Oh, we're home for the next three weeks or four months.

(22:15): So I think in the midst of that, it was really hard to transition, but I will tell you the things that have burst out of it, that I, to your point, don't want to lose. Honestly, our spiritual rhythms as a family have gotten way more daily and consistent. And I don't want to lose that. My kids and I mean props to crossroads and other churches that have online content, Saddleback church is one that we've been leveraging a lot, just getting daily rhythms around spiritual formation with my kids. And I don't want to lose that. In fact, I got to the YouVersion Bible app. I'm giving all kinds of shout outs here. I don't get any money for endorsement.

(22:51): No, I'm just hearing stuff. It's working for me. But the new version Bible app, they do this thing on their homepage every morning called a story. And it's like a couple of cards, there'll be a minute or so video of a teaching. Well, they have one for kids. And so I'm now in a rhythm as my kids are going, getting ready to go back to school saying, Hey, we're gonna do the story every day. And so it's just a brave them that we can have. That's a dailiness and that's really been birthed out of the quarantine. I would say the other thing that has been really wonderful is I am way more connected to my kid's education than I was before. And I'm not, I'm not necessarily proud to say this, but, you know, I kinda was one of those fathers who, you know, I've always, I mean, I'm always coaching a team I'm always present in the school, but from an educational standpoint, my wife, my wife was trained to be a teacher.

(23:35): And I kind of said like, mom's the expert. You got mom, you know, come to me with the really, you know, interesting or hard stuff that maybe mom doesn't know about in areas of history or whatever that I'm about. But I will tell you, Corey, I got to spend a lot of time with my daughter in particular, who has had some delays developmentally just helping her through, you know, consonant, vowel, consonant, word, construction, blending, where things like, you know, I got all this language. Now, this vernacular that would make you think I know a thing or two about, about elementary education

(24:06): Until you pay attention though. Yeah.

(24:09): It helped me pay attention and I don't want to lose that. I don't want to lose that and I don't want to lose just the togetherness that we've had as a family. We've been in this thing together. And you know, that's the thing about hardship, none of us want it, but quite frankly, it's probably the only thing that really does bond our family. You know you gotta go through something, you gotta have a struggle, a mountain to climb as a family to really get those memories in those moments and the things that start to galvanize here's who we are as team Mingo. So quite frankly, even in the midst of the hardship, that's come with this pandemic. There are a lot of things that have happened in our family that don't want to lose.

(24:47): Yeah, that's good. You have three young kids, how's it been from a marriage standpoint of just the ups and downs of that and how you are recalibrating and going on dates. And what does that look like?

(25:00): Yeah. You know, constant challenge. Now I will tell you, we have, we had fallen off of a rhythm of date nights because we weren't going out. I mean, we, you know, we had a rhythm, we had a sitter, we had the kind of, you know, all the things that we needed to have a regularity to it. And that all fell through with the quarantine. And so quite frankly, we are at this point just committing Saturday nights to just be out on our back patio together and just make that kind of sacred time where we just catch up on life. And hopefully don't just talk logistics, but actually just enjoy each other's company for a bit, you know? And that's been some of the things that we tried to figure out and trying to get creative with it. So like for this Saturday. And, and let me again, I'm always cautious when we have these kinds of conversations of sounding like I'm crushing it when I'm not crushing it.

(25:51): I'm just trying to figure it out past crushing it. Right. I am not hashtag crushing it, but one of the things my wife has gotten into in the midst of the quarantine is mixology. So she's like learn how to mix drinks. And there's like this Instagram thing that she follows anyway. So this Saturday, her birthday is actually today. So this is a birthday gift that's happening Saturday. I've found an online zoon class that you can do with this place in New York city. And it's like a mixology class. So we're going to on our back patio, we're just going to do that. You know, we're in our kitchen, we're going to do that. And so trying to be creative, I just find for me, I get in ruts super easy. I like routine. I don't need things to change that much. My wife is the opposite. And so it's a challenge for me to think about ways to mix it up, to make it fresh. But I know that that speaks love to her. And it says that I'm still interested in keeping our relationship fresh. So again, not hashtag crushing it, but hashtag trying to figure it out.

(26:46): No, and I love that and I just love the story you shared. It was your, your back deck. Because the thing that as I work with clients is I know bring them on one of the first things is kind of how's home. What's going on there. When's the last time we went on a date and a lot of times it could just be crickets. It's like let's see, I don't know, maybe six months ago or something. I mean, just something just such bad news. But now with quarantine is I talked to people. They blame it on quarantine. Why can't we can't go out? We can't go anywhere. It's like, hold up. Yes, you can. First of all, my wife and I have still been going out on our dates. We actually did a staycation for our 21st anniversary this summer where we stayed at a hotel downtown and it was incredible.

(27:27): And so there's still stuff to do for him, but for you to say, Hey, we maybe, cause we can't get, you know, it's hard to get babysitters right now, three young kids, you're just going in your backyard and backpack. That's awesome. And so for people just to hear that, that can happen and there could be some success in that. And then the other thing you said, as long as we don't talk about logistics, my coach for me at the very beginning said on those dates, maybe make the first part, like first three minutes, like logistics, like just get it out of the way, the way any calendar or anything, just get it out of the way. And then switch mode, announced date mode, as opposed. A lot of us, we just kind of drip it all along the way. And before, you know, we've talked about kid's schedule the whole time. And so, and Holly and I tried to do a good job at like, Hey, let's do it. Right, right now, talk about it. And then the rest will be, you know, about each other.

(28:19): Yeah. I like that, man. I'm going to borrow that, borrow that

(28:24): Except further is the recommendation was go to one place to talk shop and like an appetizer and get it all out of the way. Kids, maybe any budget talk, whatever it may be and then go to the next place and that's daytime. So yeah.

(28:41): So just even shifting the environment, the location. Oh, I like that. I like that. Corey. That's great. Great advice.

(28:47): Yeah. Well it I know it's helped us at different times for sure.

(28:52): I don't know if you thought about this, but you should think about writing a book on this topic. Like you're pretty good at this stuff.

(28:59): Thanks. It's funny. You mentioned the book. I was with a bunch of some people this weekend. We were talking about the book and like sales and it was just a joke where, how our book sales Ben. I said, they've been good. I said, the problem is if I ever write another book, I'm not putting the solution in the title.

(29:16): I don't need to read it.

(29:17): The guy's going to tell me to when I'm home

(29:20): Chapter two, right?

(29:22): Yeah. So I'm going to have a more next, book's going to be a much more ambiguous title. Like what's it about, I love it. What are you learning right now? What are you hearing from God, man?

(29:35): I'm learning, I'm learning a lot, a couple of things I'm learning. And I kind of been rethinking this over and over again summer. I think we're in a time where I've called it. There's a pandemic underneath the pandemic and it's the erosion of trust. I I've been thinking about this and you think about it at an institutional level. We know that that's true. As we, you know, divide a long haul kinds of, I mean, who would have thought that we would be divided along mask wearing at the beginning of 2020, that that would be such a lightning rod topic, but it speaks to trust. It speaks to do I trust what the institution saying or not? Right. Do I trust what the government's saying or not? So I think those are signs of it, but also Corey, just thinking about, I think we really did ourselves as humans, a disservice by calling it social distancing.

(30:23): I think that's bad language because basically we've been training each other for six months that there's something wrong with you and I need to keep distance from you socially now, spatial distancing. Yes, I get it. And you might think that semantics, but art, somebody put it really well. If we had called it spatial distancing, it allows us to emphasize relational proximity because even if it's via zoom, six feet away, we need relationships. And so there's an erosion of trust at that level. And so there's also an erosion of trust at a worldview level and this kind of gets into, you know, faith, right? So I think about a verse in Hebrews, it talks about everything that can be shaken, will be shaken. And I think that that's been true to a large degree in 2020. And so it raises these existential questions about, well, what can I, what is from what is secure?

(31:12): What, what is going to last? And I think that those are opportunities for people to find trustworthy guides. And so I've been thinking a lot about the combination of empathy and authority, which I think is what a trustworthy guide offers to people and thinking about how Jesus embodies that, thinking about how quite frankly, I can embody that as a leader right now in a time of uncertainty, how can I be very, very empathetic to the struggles, the reactions, the anger, the people who are under my authority naturally feel when things just aren't sure. And then how can I be a leader through my character formation? And quite frankly, by doing the work and getting the reps the people look at and say he has a level of authority. I may not have all the answers, but I want people to believe they can follow me that I'm worthwhile to follow.

(32:00): And so I've been thinking a lot about that. God's just continued to show me, example scripture, show me where he wants to grow my heart in that in my own life. And so that's definitely a place where I've been learning and growing and being stretched by God. And I just think, you know, man, what's it look like to be a trustworthy guide to our kids, to our spouse, to our coworkers, to our bosses. You know what I mean? It's, it's not even a hierarchical thing. I think that's one of the places where God is really teaching me the other, the other is quite frankly, I'm just realizing how much I need time to really just be with God that all of my doing has to come out of a deep, deep of abiding. And I think that's even more important in an uncertain time. Like we're in, I've had a great summer in the sense of, like you said, undivided expanding kind of in startup mode, building an organization around that, all of those things.

(32:53): And obviously I'm living through the same uncertainty as everybody else. I mean, I'm a pastor. We haven't gathered in a building now for probably six months. Don't have a set date of when we will gather in a building again. And so in the midst of all of that, gosh, that place of abiding is so, so critical. And so I just feel like God just keeps telling me you need more. I know you think you have enough time with me. You need more. I know you think you, I know you think you dwell enough with me. You need more. And I'm just seeing that over and over in my life.

(33:20): That's awesome. I'm taking all kinds of notes. I always enjoy it is learning from you the, on the social distancing. One thing that I, it drives me crazy is like, people don't even say hi anymore. Like even if we have a mask on, I'll walk by someone, I'll look at them. I say, hi and nothing. Like I've got some disease. And I do think there's something happening with people who are just like, I'm just distancing from anybody and everybody, unless they're kind of my friend or my family, but goodbye to strangers, you know, back to the old school stranger danger.

(33:52): Yeah. It's a dangerous thing for, I mean, and I won't say it obviously go back to hashtag crushing it. It's not like we were hashtag crushing it relationally before. I mean, we know all the statistics around loneliness and isolation and all of that. And so I do really, I have concern about that in terms of what are we, what are we training each other in and how can we untrain and start training toward again, relational proximity, which I think is so important. Yeah.

(34:18): That untrain is a good one. Before we hit record, we were talking about just how our families have handled the, just the lockdown a little bit. And there's a lot with our 16 year old daughter where, you know, everything was kind of shut down her world or school or dance. I mean, just kind of all that. And we're gonna have to untrain some of that, those pieces. And so it's been a backed a lot of, just a lot of good conversations over the summer in regard to that, I would love to keep going, but you got the stuff to do. What are you reading right now? Chuck

(34:52): Man, I'm reading a couple things right now. First I'm reading a book called the iron trial, which is youth fantasy fiction. And I'm reading that Cory cause one of the things that I committed to the summer is to start reading some books together. Well, at this point as my 12 year old, but as my kids get older, I wanted to have a family reading list, things that we're reading together in the summer. So we can talk about them. This is our second book that we're all reading in the summer. So I'm reading the R and trial and really enjoying it a lot. I'm also reading a really powerful book called Redis cycling, the white church. And this is a white pastor in Chicago. Who's just talking about how goes back to the conversation around race. We have just not made race and it's affects a part of our discipleship of American to our detriment in the American church because of our history. I think he has a really, really profound thought and word on that. And so, so I'm reading that as well and really getting a lot out of it. And so, yeah, those are, those are two of the books that I'm reading right now. I try to be reading one or two books at a time, one on audible. So I'm doing the iron trial, the one with my family on audible and kind of reading actually on Kindle the one, three discipling, the white church.

(36:03): That's great. And one more question. What are you most excited about the next 30 days?

(36:08): Wow, man, in the next 30 days, I'm excited about my kids starting school. Again, I, you know, and again, this could be, this could be one of those things where some of the listeners want to smack me in the face. I get it. But I think it meant a lot for the association of pediatrics to come out and say, Hey, if you can do it, it'd be helpful for kids to get back in school. And I just see my kids excited about connecting with their friends again. And and, and it feels to me like something like I'm a big believer in rhythms and things that are repeatable patterns. And in the fall you go back to school. So like tonight, tonight is our Baptist school feast every year for our kids go back to school. That last night we have a special meal and Maria will do some creative things around it.

(36:54): And we just reflect on the summer and we reflect on kind of, we often will make a fall bucket list. Like what do we want to do this fall? And it just feels good that we're going to have the opportunity in our case to have that rhythm and wake up in the morning and for our kids to do the go, to go back to school thing. And so I'm excited about that. I'm excited about my kids getting back with their friends, getting back into the learning environment and just what that will mean for them. Cautiously excited, but excited. Yeah,

(37:20): No, we are too. We do a back to school, dinner and discussion just like you said, and our kids love it. And so we're already talking about what the meal is and we were joking. We do, we just start it now. Are we starting to go back to school? Cause we just got a five week delay before we go live. You know, it's way virtual, but Chuck, I loved it. Loved talking with you. Thank you. How can listeners get ahold of you? Whether or not anything, whether it's undivided or just learning more from you?

(37:47): Absolutely. So you can go to undivided.com and there you can connect to the work of a divided. What we're doing. You can learn more, participate, give whatever you want to do around that. And then you can find me on social channels. So on Facebook, it's Chuck D Mingo, Instagram and Twitter. It's Chuck Mingo and would love for you to follow along with things. And I'm learning that the ways that we're engaging, if you're interested in learning more about nobody coming to your city would love to hear from you.

(38:12): Awesome. Well thank you so much, Chuck. Really appreciate it. Thanks Corey. Thanks for adding me. I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. When at home first, I am so grateful to hear from listeners like you, that this content has been helpful. So now I would love for you to pay it forward. I want to get this message in the hands of more listeners. We need leaders

(38:36): To be winning both at home and at work, especially during this time. So please take a minute to share this episode with somebody you think would find value in it, as well as rate and subscribe as a thank you, please visit my website at corymcarlson.com to download a free resource that people are finding value in. Thank you very much.

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