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About 14 years ago, a plane crashed into a volcano it didn’t see because the coordinates had been two degrees off on the instrument panel.

This story reminds me of the current state of therapy: Therapy’s success rates are shockingly low. In fact, even shock therapy gives you better odds. Now, it’s not because therapists are bad people, most of them have the best intentions, but they’re just two degrees off on how to solve it.

Well, in this episode, we look at Chapter 2 from my newest book, Built for Freedom, and my journey for discovering a better, faster, and more effective way to conquer your addictions and trauma.

Want to speed up your “healing process,” and free yourself from your past? Listen now.

Show Highlights Include

  • The insidious “Shock Therapy” trap many people fall into after a traumatic experience that they think will help, but actually increases their suffering (7:13)
  • Why popping healing sessions like pills can result in getting help for 14 straight years without overcoming your problem (8:52)
  • How the healing process itself can make you addicted to it and unable to ditch your past (12:33)
  • The weird way depression can become a meditative state (and how to figure out if you secretly like your depression) (16:07)
  • Why shock therapy actually has better odds at reducing your symptoms than most of the regular therapy modalities (17:55)
  • The “Dancing with Fear” secret for using your fear to make you happier and more free (19:29)
  • How blindly believing what people like Jordan Peterson or even I say is a recipe for anxiety and misery (and what to do instead) (31:47)

Need help unlocking mental, emotional, and physical freedom in your life? Grab my new book, Built for Freedom: Adventures Through Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, Trauma, Pain, and Our Body’s Innate Ability to Leave Them All Behind on Amazon (or Audible) here: https://www.amazon.com/Built-Freedom-Adventures-Depression-Addiction/dp/B0BS79GMYN

Or head over to https://thefreedomspecialist.com/ and book a call where we can look at your unique situation and give you the roadmap you’ve been missing.

Read Full Transcript

It's time to rip the cover off what really works to ditch addiction, depression, anger, anxiety, and all other kinds of human suffering. No, not sobriety. We're talking the F word here, freedom, wheelchair straight from the trenches what we've learned from leaving our own addictions behind and coaching hundreds of others to do the same. And since it's such a heavy topic, we might as well have a good time while we're at it.

(0:35) All right, welcome back to the alive and free podcast book club of week two, on the second chapter of built for freedom available and all your just Amazon retailers. It's not in bookstores, sorry. And on Audible, this chapter is entitled 27 miles west. And so this is where I introduced the Aerobus plane crash from Antarctica. I had heard about it some 14 years ago, in a church talk no less. And the basic crux of it was that this plane had crashed into a volcano, and it didn't even see the volcano was there. And it crashed into 12,000 foot volcano basically, because the coordinates had been to Mile two degrees off on the instrument panel. And so when I went to look at it, I was just looking for details of that one. And then I just went down this rabbit hole, there's there's entire podcast series about this, this crash. And like I said, there might be a memorial in the works now, but I don't even think there's a memorial done yet for for everything that's happened. It's a single deadliest disaster in New Zealand history. And it all hinged on like a transcription error. And that then got compounded by people continuing to pass along instructions. And as I was looking at this, I was looking at all of these tremendous people in the health industry, the psychologists, the psychiatrists, the doctors, the nurses, all these people that have been given information that they're operating on, that has worked for a number of different people in some way or another. But they're just going on it like trusting that this information is going to get them where they need to go. And then I've described the plane crash of those industries in the last chapter, like all the stuff that's going on in an average Street, and how much all of these mental health issues are continuing to be on the rise. So we're in we've run into the volcano. And so what if my question in that one was like, what if it's just because we're just a couple of degrees off, and we've missed the mark a little bit. So that was where I kind of started the idea of it. And I take that metaphor through the book for several chapters before leaving it behind unceremoniously, because there's better things to focus on like life, and it doesn't have to be a big bang.

(2:37) You want to really interesting experience when Bob talks about detailing the the accident, the flight crash, I don't know if I was ready to hear in depth, how much you go into, I think it would have been okay, except when I listened to this part of the story, I was sitting in a sauna, confined in a very small, very hot space, 140 degrees, listening to this account, and definitely a physiological response. Really powerful. But also, I wouldn't suggest doing the same thing I did. And being in that space listening to this chapter.

(3:11) Yeah, you definitely want to be open it. I mean, there's some gruesome details, there's epic books on it, like 900 page books on just this crash. And I a book that was an epic poem written about it. And like all of this stuff, and details from all kinds of different arenas about this one crash that has consumed a lot of people's attention for a long time. And I think that made it even more profound for me, because then I was looking at the aftershocks and the aftermath of it. And all the people that were with PTSD and all and struggling with depression, and all these other things that came from there having to deal with a life event. So I felt like it, it, it layered on really nicely to people struggling with trauma, things that have happened to them, how they deal with it, looking people blaming, you know, there's all these conspiracy theories that came out of it. And so the blame game that that showed up, people had to like resign from jobs, CEOs from airlines, like all kinds of a mess that happened as a result of a single event that came from just the human error.

(4:12) Right. And we talked about this when we discussed chapter one, but experiencing the experiences inside of the book. Now, fortunately, none of us have been in a plane crash and been killed by that. But the thing that I think was really powerful is like reading in detail what was going on, and then the connections to my own life after the fact and how I'm handling trauma, how I'm handling these various, sometimes difficult situations in my life. The level of detail, there was a power to that where it's like I could feel inside of what I was reading and just experienced that, you know, the safety of my own home. But that made that significant experience for me because I was reading about something that was horrific. And also then being able to look at that and through the lens of what people who were the survivors, not of the plane crash itself, but there after the fact and what they went through, and to see that, you know, in my own experiences, small and large, like how I handle things, and How had I not met Bob originally, thing in my life would probably be very different just in terms of how I process the most challenging aspects of what it is that I encounter. So it was really, really cool. Yeah, I

(5:24) mean, I have, over the years taken a lot of courses in writing and studied delivery on things studied comedy and stuff, just because I really love turns a phrase I love. I've really enjoyed being in the presence of a great speech or a really great delivery. And I wanted this to feel in some way, cement cinematic, and in some ways, like, wow, I'm this, I wanted the whole book to feel really gripping, you know, like, just like, I can't put it down. Like, even though I'm in the middle of this, I want to know what the next thing was. So that like, because there is some science to the emotional power. Like when there's a heightened level of emotion or experience that comes with any idea, that idea sinks in deeper. And I'm trying to seed an idea of freedom with people. And so I felt like the writing needed to match that on a big level. And it'd be believable enough that the person could be there and feel it and then get the idea that at the time when the like the experience was the most raw, because then they could take it and run with it and, and be able to do something with it.

(6:29) One of the side stories, which you kind of hit on in talking about that that flight is all the people that have tried to help along the way. Yeah. And and the thing that I was caught by is like, how many of them struggled Well, decades later, you know how much I struggle was I was like, Man, I wish I could have come to a freedom retreat. You know, and just how, how long we have tried futile things that haven't helped people actually, but as cause more harm. And you get into that a little bit more in this chapter, right? We talk about your cranial sacral, sacral, therapist, teacher, and her struggle, 14 years of that, but also AECT and all those things. And I think we've talked about this, but it used to be called shock therapy, right? My own grandmother, like this has impacted my life. I mean, I've never met her. But she, her husband died in a train accident. And one of the things that they did for her 100 years ago, or whatever it was, was shock therapy. And after being in and out of the insane asylum, she eventually committed suicide. It did not help, you know, and there's so many things that we're doing that have not helped. Yeah, that keep people where they're at. And you allude to that. When you're talking about, you know, your instructor struggling for 14 years, or working for 14 years on the same thing. Yeah, birth trauma. Yes, he's still struggling for and don't get me wrong. It doesn't mean, I had to do an interesting dance with this, right? Because I'm not I'm not. I have nothing against the people that are out there trying to help others.

(8:06) Well, let me just say throughout the whole book, like I greatly respect the way that you handle those people. Like they are good people. Yeah, investing their lives, working hard with the best intentions to help people and free them as much as possible. And I really, I really, I mean, I've been in that field a little bit. And so thank you, for respecting those people and their intention. But it's very, you handle them well. And they are well intentioned, and we're doing things that aren't helping. Yeah, like you give a well intentioned person a port of bad tool, and they'll do what they can with the tool with the best of intentions. And it might even help from time to time but give them a better tool and you know, they could do something a little bit better for sure. You mentioned the book just referring to that story so that that day marks another turning point when you were working with her. I'm not interested in being a table tart for life popping healing sessions like pills was caught while constantly struggling, regurgitating old hurts wherever life has a hiccup. Do you want to talk about that a little bit more? Yeah, it

(9:07) was a one one in terms of style. I tried to write this like a like a journalist story, like if present tense as much as I could, unless I felt like I needed to refer to something. And it took a little bit of dance for that because I wrote it like, here I am. I'm doing this. I'm doing that so that the person reading could feel like okay, he's here, I'm watching it happen. I'm watching it go down. Instead of some third person omniscient or, you know, kind of prospective as well. And I that was a very conscious choice that sometimes required a lot of mental gymnastics on how to write a sentence. It didn't sound like Jeff's favorite sentences in the sentences in this book rule. So what's a table start with a table? That was a phrase? That was a phrase that they used among the like in the cranial sacral therapy field that I you know, I trained with him for several years and worked as a cranial sacral therapist for a number of years, wrote a book about that as like an introductory book for to help people understand the sort of like subtler aspects of healing that some of these alternative therapies work with. And they that person particularly was like, yeah, yeah, I'm just a little bit of a table tart, you know, anytime I can get a session, I will, but then she would get down there. And she had basically turned her life somewhat into a life focused around the process of or the I want to say the experience of healing. And healing is definitely an experience, whether or not there is something that is actually broken and actually healed. We can experience this thing, we label healing, and she had turned her attention to that helping other people feel it and feeling it herself. And as a result, you know, I'm sitting there, it was the final day was years of training was the final day of training. And we had one person short in the class. And so she jumped in so that she could pop another session. And she's a beautiful, wonderful like, and she's helped a lot of people, she she works with racehorses, and like, animals in this manner, like she's really good at her craft. And so she's on there and I feel this massive sensation run through my palms and up my forearms of like, deep shock cold. Now we're in the room, there's no AC blowing on my hands or anything. And I was I recognize this feeling before people who have come that I'm working on him after dental surgery, and I feel this kind of thing. And it seems to correlate with sort of the numbness from Novocaine or cocaine and, and people who've used that. And so I was like, Okay, I felt this before. It's big, but whatever. And she goes, Oh, no, I recognize this this a shock. I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, she's like, this is this is birth trauma. I was forced to have a baby. And you know, the forceps they grab around your cheekbones and help that pull the head out of the birth canal. And I was like, Oh, okay. Have you dealt with this before? And she was again? Yeah, ever since I started doing this. And I was like, How long ago was that? And she said, it was 14 years. And I not playfully, those were like, basically the words that went through my head. But I had this internal monologue at that point, that was like 14 years, like, how long did it take to be born? You know, some people go through labor for 36 hours, like if it takes 14 years for 36 hour labor, like, what has happened between birth and now and how many years is it going to take for you to be free of everything that's happened then. And in that moment, even though I worked in that field for a number of years, since then, something in me was like, there has to be a better way, there has to be a faster, more efficient way to help a person stop getting hung up on regurgitating some past hurt. And being able to engage with life right here and right now. And so that's where that's where I took that one.

(12:31) That's cool. I feel like when I think of that, in my own story, like, this is something you've heard you talk about, like, Goodwill Hunting or something these like movies that kind of prime us for, like, I need this breakthrough I need and it's like that, for me, they're realizing being honest, like there is something that I like about that process, like going down into the depths and then coming back up. And like, it can be this, like, addiction, or, you know, like it can be this cycle that I that I actually like going through, but I wouldn't have ever seen that. I don't think I would have just been like, oh, yeah, this is how it works with therapy, having these breakthroughs, and then an invitation to be like, when are you going to be done breaking through something in just

(13:19) leave it What was funny was after I had, like, kind of decided that I was going to be done. It was very short time, you know, piecing together things for me to kind of set aside pornography as a habit, it might have taken a little while longer for me to like, get rid of some of the like struggle on the internally, but I was able to get rid of it pretty quickly. So within a few months, you know, like it was gone. I didn't have any urges nothing else like that. But what did happen was I had sort of traded it for this process that you're describing, I had sort of gotten latched on to this the significance I found in my life, from discovering something wrong with me or a new angle on my past or something and then finding a root issue. And then having a breakthrough moment. And to be honest, like a lot of the things I developed came from those experiences, so I can't bag on them at all. And so maybe everybody will will go through a phase like that there is a sweetness that comes from going like, wow, I found it. And I vanquished it. And I think that plays into the Hollywood mentality and drama and literature and all of those other things anyway, so there is a certain sweetened experience. But what I noticed was like those experiences, I after a time, I was like I, my life feels like it's just focused around, going into the dark, I'm coming back out and going into the dark. And I was like I don't I want to move on from that. Like, I want it to just be automatic that I'm free, and my body handle it and not have to sit there and like spend my conscious thought healing when I could be living.

(14:44) A friend of mine is pursuing his doctorate in psychology and I asked him why he was doing that because you know, couldn't you do, you know, therapy with your master's degree and your license and all that and he's like, Yeah, but it goes without a doctorate. I don't have a voice. I'm like, well, what's the voice you want to have? And he told me that the Whole of psychology is going to like, whatever you're feeling it's great. Whatever you're doing is great. It's all about just confirming wherever someone is that not ever challenging where they're at.

(15:13) Yeah, I never challenged. It's such a weird paradox, though. Like, because seems like what you're saying is like, everything is like, everything is great. Or something. We're not like, great, beautiful. Yeah, life is beautiful. But the problem is thinking that it's not Yeah. But then you more than anybody else I've met really challenged people. Yeah. in lots of ways. So that like, strange. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, like at the core, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the world. And that recognition has made me more capable of challenging, although all the stuff people think about the world. And maybe that's maybe that's the way I can make sense of that paradox is, there is some sort of external thing that my nerves are picking up on. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if I don't like how my nerves are picking up on it, then I got an issue and the people that don't want to suffer depression, like if a person likes depression, what's the problem? They're having a good time. And that's basically a downregulated neurological system that some people could consider a meditative state, even in this chapter with Robert Pirsig, who wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, based on his experience with AECT obviously took some artistic license with it. If you haven't read that book, one of the beat writers from way back in the day is international bestseller. And but, you know, he went through this whole process that he went through AECT. And his description was like, he had a when he had a break, like a psychotic break, he sat on the floor crying for like, three days. And he said, in the east, they would have called this a hard enlightenment experience. But in the West, they just called it, you know, catatonic schizophrenia. And so then they, you know, then he got prescribed, let's go put you through some shock therapy and stuff. If you or someone you know, is looking to drop the F bomb of freedom in their life, whether that's from past trauma, depression, anxiety, addiction, or any other host of emotional and personal struggles, but they just don't know how, or want some help doing it, head on over to the freedom specialist.com/feel better now, and check out some of the things we've got in store for you, or book a call. So we can look at your unique situation and get you the help that you're looking for. And I use shock therapy as a, as a sort of an extreme example, in this chapter of what we're doing to people in the name of medicine. And it is not outmoded at all. Like there was a guy at the retreat this weekend, who is a nurse, and he's talking about hospitals that he was working in just last week who have a very, very healthy electroshock therapy, electroconvulsive therapy program. And he's watching the people go in and out of that, like zombies and how he's like, I don't even know that they could have put some things together. And as early as and I mentioned this in the book, like February of last year, there was a huge review on all this stuff. And they're recommending that it'd be done more for more people. And the prognosis is you gotta you have about a 50% chance of a 40% reduction of symptoms, you know, so, to me, I look at that, and I go, that's not great odds. And that sounds like wow, yeah, that's just shock therapy. But those are better odds than most of the regular therapies. And that's sobering. That sobering that something so extreme and medieval, in many ways, and people are still doing leeches nowadays. And they're injecting like, Shark DNA into themselves. Like there's a lot of stuff that if you really take a look, okay, we've gotten rid of cauldrons and we've replaced them with Bunsen burners, you know, rid of like pointed hats, and we put on lab coats, we've gotten rid of a lot of the accoutrements, but it's still quite medieval, in many ways that shark DNA stuff sounds pretty cool.

(18:48) blue shark, just so you know. And I have been a part of administration of that stuff. So I've had yeah, I've had a chance to kind of really look at a lot of things with some of the clients I've worked with over the years in other healing modalities and stuff with modalities who have come to me and is that why you have multiple rows of teeth? Yeah, it's something to have a row about. Okay. What uh, what I think of with that is an experience that I had with you is stick work. It was maybe like, my third or fourth time getting that done was this like, hard? Like, pretty uncomfortable, deep tissue release thing. And all this fear was coming up about my family and stuff and talking to you after that. I was just like, I don't want this fear. Like, why is it all this fear here? And you said something like, fear is a part of life. It's not about eliminating all fear from your existence from your experience. It's about something like dancing with it or accepting it. And so and that was, that was helpful for me of just like, oh, yeah, it's not that I'm this date that I'm aiming at is just this like pure bliss all the time exactly the same no matter what it's like life does have real highs and lows and different things in there. And if I can accept that and dance with it, then I can have a great experience, no matter where I'm at. Yeah.

(20:19) So like I do this in one of our online programs, but I kind of give a graph of if you were thinking about neurological stimulation upregulated or downregulated nerves, you know, the body wants homeostasis, it wants to be in this place where it's not like being zinged, basically, by its own electricity, right. And so, you know, it doesn't matter where you're at on that level, you can either really enjoy the process or really not, you know, and that relationship to what's happening is really kind of at the heart of the matter. So I relay that in there. And then I kind of bring it home by relating how this shock therapy and all this other stuff. There, like it sounds extreme, but like, think of all the lists of stuff that happens in prescription medications, and all the side effects that come on as a result of the method. And the approach that we're doing, when really, the assumption is still with that approach, that there is something wrong with the body. And my assertion, generally speaking, is that there's everything right with the body, or you couldn't experience depression, anxiety, pain, or anything else. The fact that you can have pain means your nerves are working well. Congratulations, and that your brain is forming opinions about those. And those are things you can edit.

(21:29) There's an aspect of the 27 miles off chapter where, like the whole industry is about like identifying the problem talking about the problem, talking with other people about the problem talking about the problems more coming back and talking about the problem, but there's no movement from it, which is my own story. And you go back to chapter one and just talk about like, you can stop this, you can move on from this.

(21:54) Yeah, I mean, it's a matter of aim. That's what we were talking about with the guys this weekend, right? If you aim your life at survival, then you will find things that are if you aim your life at overcoming something, then your life will, you'll find things that you will get to overcome. And if your life is aimed at life, then you'll find life and if your life is aimed at money, then you'll find things associated with money. And so it has a lot to do with aim. And I used to in the beginning talk about like being in an arena like in a fight like an MMA match or something. And as long as you're in the arena with it, it doesn't matter if you're losing or winning. Even if I'm winning and sitting on his face and whatnot, then comes the rematch. And then I have to defend the title and stuff. And so the question I had in my mind was, how do I quit the fight? How do I forfeit, leave the leave the grudge match, you know, chain or whatever it is, get out of the underground Fight Club, go spend my day at a picnic in the park? How do I enjoy the rest of life. And a lot of that does boil down to what's the focus of this. So in this chapter one, like I'm relaying my experience in my journey somewhat in this chapter, in terms of all the things that I tried, and and how I had come to a place where I was experiencing these glorious what would be called mystical experiences by a lot of people on my own. After like having tested all those things out and whatnot, and then I suddenly have just found some simple things that are body based and all of a sudden I'm having these experiences. And what led between those two extremes of like scrambling and trying to find an answer to the like this self generated On Autopilot kind of joy in life and freedom and ease that's inside of my system was in part a decision that whatever I explored, had to meet a few criteria. And that was one, especially when it came to medicines and stuff I didn't want to try anything that the person offering it wouldn't try themselves. And so that, that really cut out a lot of stuff. You know, I'm you know, if a doctor is not going to pop the pill then I don't want to pop the pill either. And many doctors will pop the pill so there's nothing against them. You know, my wife had to do pepper spray in the museum if she wanted to carry pepper spray and she was like no, I'm not that stupid. Guys, on the other hand, be like yeah, pepper spray me. taze me. I want to see what it's like if the if I get the right. And now I can use a taser and use it for bragging rights. My wife is not that dumb.

(24:20) So actually in a museum, check the art. Really it was it was an art museum. She was. Don't spray it on the paintings, though, you know. And so, like that was one of the criteria. Another one was that like, if it had to be something I enjoyed doing? Because I I think that's where I realized if I focus on fixing stuff, and I think Tucker talked about this a little bit earlier, but if I if my entire focus is on fixing stuff, and this hard, big heavy thing. Then all of a sudden what I'm left with at the end is that I've trained my body to think of all my problems as hard big, heavy things. So what I wanted to do was turn it around and make everything into a game, like make it whimsical, make it fun, find things that were absolutely enjoyable, even if they were challenging. But if the I didn't mind that if they were challenging if I was like having a good time and learning stuff and doing stuff, then I was willing to try it. The your hands are, so I

(25:19) just picked a microphone from him. And it's like, but so my question with that is, what was that exit like? Well, because I remember, when I first started trying to stop looking at porn, went to therapy therapist was like, got to do a 12 step program. Also, I don't want to, but I did that. And then I got really into 12 steps for about two years. And then at the end of that two years, I started looking elsewhere. And there was a lot of fear of like, this has worked better than anything else I've tried. It's not working very well, compared to where I want to be. There's a lot of people in here who have been doing this for a long time don't seem to be like, and so but actually kind of stepping out on my own looking for people who you know, that was like,

(26:12) very scary. He was terrifying on some level, when I and I think is this is in chapter three, where I talked about this a little bit. But when I had to step out on my own, I didn't have anybody else I could blame if it didn't work. I couldn't blame God for like, if the prayers didn't work, I couldn't just say, well, it must be God's will. And like, this is a trial and stuff, I could no longer blame God for that. I couldn't blame the 12 step program anymore and who and Bill W and his stuff. And I couldn't blame therapists anymore and say, oh, that didn't work. And I couldn't blame the mindfulness teachers. And I couldn't blame the cranial sacral therapist and the energy healers and I couldn't blame the books and the articles like I like was left with. I'm the scientist and the experimental data is in my body, and I have to test it out. And it was exhilarating when I found things that worked and terrifying when they didn't. And I think the the biggest errors were the ones where I didn't know if they worked or not. Because I didn't want to like, go down a bad road. But one of the things I tried early on for instances associated with pornography was I was like, the first thought I had was, well, whatever it's come in, then I have to get it out. I don't know where the thought came from. If you really chase your thoughts. I haven't found anybody who actually knows where their thoughts come from, they sort of arise in the brain. And then they disappear somewhere. And I think I'm thinking them either way, the thought came, whatever came in, I have to get out. And so I was like, Okay, I'm dealing with porn. I've looked at 18 years where support. And I'm an artist, I am going to get some paper and I am going to get it out. Okay, can you those of you listening? You already see how stupid this is. So I turned on some like inspirational music because I didn't want to go down a rabbit hole. And I prayed first and all the things and I closed the door and my wife was like, this is a stupid idea. And I was like, I just have to do this. And so then 45 minutes in I was a good artist, by the way. Did I tell you guys this? I was basically making my own pornography. And I was like super, quote unquote, triggered and really aroused and stuck in this place where I was like, Oh, I am never getting out of this. The 12 Step programs weren't working the way I wanted to. I didn't want to be resigned to a life like that. And now I'm making my own porn. Geez. So I took it out back and I burned it all. And then I went back in and I was like, Alright, what's the next step? What goes in has to come out, I still feel like that's the right way to go. What's the next thing and then the next thing that came is is inside of some of the programs that came. But that was a really terrifying hour, for sure. And I felt like I had to go like, repent a lot from it. I went on some long walks and stuff just because I was like, Well, I was just trying my best. And so you get a pretty good benchmark as an artist is if you can draw something that gets you horny. You've passed dessert.

(29:06) I'm not sure my teacher taught me that one. So that's a fun, that's a cool thing about the retreats too. And I think something that was surprising to me is that you are very insistent about rejecting credit for people and putting the responsibility putting the credit back on them of like, you have to do this yourself now and talk about I'm giving you some building blocks. But if you're going to do this, you're gonna have to figure it out. Yeah. And that was like I think that's a surprise like people pay money you know, all this money for this for this answer or something or for this method for this experience. And then at the end of it, you're still left with Yeah, you but that's

(29:53) the truth. Yeah. Like I can give you as much experience as possible to where you actually grasp. Wow This, these particular approaches are really effective. And then you're still left with in, you still have to turn them on. And you still have to put them together in a way that matches your life. And, and I mean, I even asked you using credentials. And that was a conscious choice a long time ago, Tucker and I've talked about it a bunch, like, I've studied a lot of things. I've gained a lot of certifications here and there. And I've done a lot of this stuff. And I mentioned them in the book, you know, so there is some kind of like, hey, look, I've been around the block kind of play. But over and over, I want it to be like, Look, if the message can't stand on its own two feet. And if the experience people are having it can't stand on its own two feet than then no amount of credentials is going to fix that. And no amount of me saying, Well, no, the process works if you just believe it. Like, I don't want people to believe the process. I want to expect them to experience what I got to experience. And there was no belief involved. There was utter doubt, and utter terror. And utter this feels like the next thing to try yay, leap off this cliff and see what happens.

(30:58) Yeah, that was that was cool at this retreat, doing a q&a with the staff. I think a couple people talk to me afterwards. And we're like, that was so helpful to hear how each one of you like me, and Tucker and Amber, all shared, what we took, and what we changed and what, how it looked different for us. And it looks really different, like, but I mean, there's there is the common thing of focusing on the body, I think, but we our bodies are really different, you know, like it. And just that that's like, that's the goal. That's, that's what we're hoping for. That's what when we when people come through is that will like send them off to do their own thing. With these things. It's cool.

(31:39) Yeah. And I think to like wrap this up, I think that that's a strong point in terms of like, what I'm trying to help people kind of grasp. Like, what you what you, you have to make it your own. And so like when you're seeking a solution to this, like it's gonna resonate with you, and hopefully, it's gonna bring some light and some comfort and everything else. And if you consider like, okay, the people, is this a method that I feel like, isn't just being forced down my throat with authority or with credentials, or with some invisible molecule somewhere that I won't have control over, I really wanted people to be able to have a practical handle on it, because that's what I wanted. If I couldn't measure, in some way with my own life experience that things were changing, then how the heck was I going to know? And then I was just throwing him away or your passes. And so that's what we try to give people. And so if you're looking for a solution, even if it's not something that we offer, and you don't come to our treat, if you're looking for a solution, like really look at it, look at the source from which the solution comes, I bagged on Jordan Peterson Peterson, even though I know a lot of people get a lot out of him. And I know, Jeff, you've had some experience with his stuff. And that helped you Yeah, to a certain extent was like the beginning for me. Yeah, like that was where things started to change.

(32:44) But I've don't brag on him in a mean way. But like I looked at him, and many, many times when I watch him speak, he looks angry, he looks anxious. He's confessed about like, confessed, it's not a sin. He's like, openly admitted, like how anxious he gets during the day, even recently. And I think to myself, Okay, cool, he might have a lot of great points. And he does have a lot of great points. And he's brilliant, beyond belief. And all of that has led him to being anxious for multiple hours a day. And I go, if that's the source, that that's the end game that all of his learning has brought him to, that's, that's a good step for him, like, it's a step in the right direction. For him, he, he's really appreciative of that in his life, like, it's really led him to some great places, and he's still making claims like, life is a catastrophe. And it's hard, and you just gotta man up, and you got to deal with this stuff. And life is a battle and you have to learn to be dangerous. And I tried that. And it was helpful for a period of time. And then I wanted something different. And if you want a different experience of life, then look at the source of the information you're getting is the source. conveying that and I mean, that even in business, Tucker, and I have like, been around some coaches and stuff and they, they are making a lot of money in their businesses. And they they're doing a great job in terms of the the metrics of the business stuff. But then when we looked at their lives, they were like burning out all the time. And they were really struggling. And it's not because they're bad people. It's just the way they had built their business made their life that way. And I don't I didn't want my life that way. So whatever solution you guys find as you're looking for it, as you're reading the book, as you're asking questions, you know, consider the source is that is whatever is happening with that person's life. Is that the place I want to go and if it's not, but you still find the information useful, great. Just recognize that at some point, you're gonna have to bear off the beaten track and go a different direction.

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