It's time to rip the cover off what really works to ditch addiction, depression, anger, anxiety, and all other kinds of human suffering. No, not sobriety. We're talking the F word here. Freedom. We'll share straight from the trenches. What we've learned from leaving our own addictions behind and coaching hundreds of others to do the same. And since it's such a heavy topic, you might as well have a good time while we're at it.
All right, folks. Welcome back to the alive and free podcast today. You get to meet my good friend Lee . He came in from out of town and, uh, I thought it would be good for you guys to hear from him. Remember a little while ago, the garage story and cleaning on the garage. This is the dude. That's me. So, um, but I want you to hear from his own lips, the story of kind of some of the main things that came from him, because a lot of people grow up in the world today having been taught you and I taught about hurts about past hurts and pains. I recently, uh, sometime ago put a little thing on Facebook talking about how past hurts don't exist, that there are present. Moment hurts that come when you're thinking about the past. And there's the people with a vested interest in there being such things as past hurts, started to chime in and push back and say that this was the case. These were counselors. These were coaches. These were therapists of various kinds. You know, they're pushing back going. No, no, we need to validate these other people. And you do them a disservice when you don't validate their past hurts. Lee, did I validate your past hurts? I don't even know how to answer that. what past hurts.
(01:50): See mission accomplished. You know, we are, um, we're dealing with, uh, we're dealing with a big thing, right? Trauma, even PTSD, the notion of abuse, molestation, rape, bullying, any number of these things can be labeled and is labeled right now by the counseling industry as something that needs to be like acknowledged, you know, coddled and sort of protected and comforted before we start to work on techniques to cope with it and possibly change it, manage it and so on and so forth. Right. Uh, you were just telling me the other day about, uh, your friend who's in counseling. So Yeah, a, a buddy of mine, uh, trying to get his doctorate in psychology, just so that he can have a voice in the industry to say, this stuff is going wrong. Because as we talked, he said that the whole industry is going to, like, we will not confront whatever the situation is, but we will assuage people where they're at and comfort them and say, yeah, this is the right thing. No matter, uh, if it is or not like if it's, if it's harmful to them, but they want to do it, then, you know, you are not loving or kind if you challenge that. So they, they go, they go deep into their addiction and, and no one ever says this is wrong, or there's something that can be changed about this. You can have a better life. Um, so yeah, it's just all that placating of where people are at.
(03:21): Yeah. And so that's sort of the state of the industry. That's not every counselor, that's not every therapist. This is what they're teaching in schools right now. And it may have been a little bit different, a little earlier on there's a lot more comforting happening and the notion of confronting somebody's story and showing them the truth is almost out. Right. I remember when I was teaching at Arizona state university, how, like, I couldn't just tell the person that they sucked at Kung Fu because they might take an offensive that like, no, that was a really bad punch. Like, no, I had to talk one way or another way, just because there was all these possibilities of microaggressions, people, very, very sensitive to it. And they're only sensitive to it because they believe it's the truth. And the best thing you can do for a person is disabuse them of their falsehoods about themselves. That doesn't mean they're bad people. If they've been led to believe this children aren't bad, cuz they've been led to believe in Santa Claus. Right. Are you sure? Yeah.
(04:16): , he's not real. I, you know, I, I have a, another buddy of mine who's in, uh, graduate school right now for counseling, uh, doing his master's work and they're they bring in selected special speakers on occasion and they brought in this one guy, uh, he was older and he said he was talking about this special case that he has, that he has this, he's had this woman in counseling for 20 years and everyone in the room applauded. And my buddy who's actually been to a freedom retreat. We're just kind of sitting there mortified, like, is this really helping? Or, you know, what's going on? And you and I have a mutual friend who is penalized financially. If he doesn't keep a client in session for 50-50 sessions. Right. Which, which if you did one a week, that's almost a year, but usually it's one a month or a couple times a month. So if you're doing that, we're talking two to four years with a client and the counselor gets penalized if he's getting them results faster. So that's kind of the state of the field and this is what Lee grew up being taught. He went through all kinds of certifications and stuff. Tell me about that.
(05:24): Yeah. I did a trauma certification. I've I've done work around suicide prevention. Undergraduate was in psychology, which I mean, doesn't mean I'm a counselor or anything like that, but, um, have, have done a lot of counseling and in 30 years of nonprofit work and you know, I had done all the work that I thought or new to do. And, um, I don't know that I was hopeless, but I would also say I wasn't hopeful when we met because I had done everything I had said, you know, people told me to tell, tell my story, tell my story, tell my story. The ironic thing is, like before I made a move out to Colorado, everyone I talked to said, don't look at this, you know, just ignore it, just put it behind you, you know? And then I got to Colorado, like people were like, you gotta look at your story, you know? And then that's all I knew to do. And it, and uh, we could talk about, you know, the retreat and, and that experience that I had there, which was shocking to me. Yeah. Well, let's, let's, let's back up and look at what the story was. Right. So, he didn't mention that he was also traveling around with a national organization, like speaking to thousands of people about yeah.
(06:32): Characteristics of abuse and children and adults, you know, how, what the impact of sexual abuse in childhood, how that it, uh, comes out in, in adults. So, yeah. So if you wanna kind of summarize in, in brief kind of one, what's your expertise in that area from personal experience? Like where did that come from and what were you dealing with and then kind of lead into what happened with her treat? Yeah, sure. Uh, so grew up in a single parent family, mom had been sexually abused as a child and not given appropriate tools herself to deal with it. And so she was, uh, very sexually active and had three different affairs producing me. And, uh, two half brothers, my mom and her divorce, we grew up in the housing projects, government food, salvation, army clothes. I was definitely in a position of being her surrogate spouse and was abused in every way, uh, emotionally, physically, spiritually, sexually, uh, I'd be in, in the middle of abuse and I would try to resist and she would quote, quote scripture to me in the, in the middle of that. And so like in my journey to do this, like, what I was taught was like, don't look at the bad stuff. You know, don't look at it, just keep going, stay positive, read more, pray, more, serve more fast, more, you know, do whatever, but just keep moving.
(07:45): And, and you went, this went on until you were kicked outta the house. Yeah. I was kicked out at 16 because I started to, well, I was, at that time I was almost six foot 10 and beginning to stand up and say, this is wrong. This, So you were tiny. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. yeah. Very, uh, yeah. And so like then at 16, I was on my own on the streets and taken in by a pastor in his family. And man, just the decades of trying to like understand like, is this how a healthy family works? And this is what relationships look like because they had all this baggage that I brought in from, I, I jokingly say that I was in a bad marriage for the first 16 years of my life. There's a lot of truth to that, you know, like a very unhealthy woman, very hurting woman. And the impact that I had on me was pretty dramatic. So, let's just take a second in time out here for those of you that are like paying attention to this going, wow, that is not the life I led. I want you to think in terms of marinade, okay. You take a piece of meat and you, or, or tofu, if you're a vegetarian and you put it in a marinade and it, it doesn't mean anything about the tofu, but it changes the flavor of the tofu. It changes the flavor of the chicken. It changes the flavor of the beef. And, and as a result, like that's what kind of soaks in. So every child is in a certain kind of marinade, right? The family you're in, the social status that you're in the, the economic status that you're in, the, the language that you speak, the religion that's in the house or not in the house.
(09:20): Uh, how many siblings are there? There's, there's a, that's the marinade, the sauce that you, that you steep in for the first number of years of your life doesn't mean anything about you at all. But if that's all, you know, stepping into the world where you don't have any foothold, any way to make sense of what's going on on the outside, cuz what you, the only thing you've learned, how to survive is on the, on that, in that sauce that you came from, then it could be jarring. So you, as you're listening, you had a different kind of sauce. Everybody's got their own kind of sauce. And it's hard to note that that sauce is not you, but this is where the questions start coming. And this is where the challenge comes is cuz when we start to challenge the sauce, it starts to feel like we're challenging you. So, you came to the retreat. Talk to me about that decision process. Yeah.
(10:07): Uh, like I said before, I wasn't hopeless, but I also wasn't hopeful. I was a good guy. I'm like, I just gotta live a good life and try my best to wake up and put a smile on my face in the morning and help as many people as I can. And it wasn't the life that I thought was talked about in scripture or you know, that I understood through my faith that was there. And as I began to ask questions around that, um, like, is this the abundant life? And I found an ad and I worked with, I work with young men and the initial ad was on around pornography and pornography's been a part of my life, but it wasn't the presenting issue at the time. And so like, like, this is interesting for what I do, the nonprofit I work with with young men. And as I was, as I was reading down into the text, uh, you said a couple things, one you're like, what if this isn't a spiritual issue, which was alien to me because I thought for sure that I was doing something wrong. If I wasn't experiencing healing or freedom, then you know, God can't be wrong. So it has to be me. And then the next part was like, I just was so tired of telling my story and I thought, well, I need to go back to counseling because I'm just not where I think I should be. And my counselor was six months booked out. And I was like, I don't wanna start with a new counselor because it's gonna take me at least six months and thousands of dollars to tell the story again, to get people up to speed. And you know, to a point where I thought that the counselor could accurately speak to what I was experiencing, what, what I'd, what I'd been through.
(11:39): And so I'm telling you, you can put your story down, you don't actually have to tell your story anymore. Another alien thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so you, you came, you did a little bit of work before the retreat, right? Yeah. I, I, I mean, I, so much of what you were saying was completely alien to me and not even like in all the experience I had and all the education and all the training and all the speaking and all the seminars and all that stuff, the things that you were saying were things I had not heard before. And I was hopeful and afraid, you know, because I remember saying like, what if this doesn't work for me? You know, because I've tried everything, you know? And I was just like, I can't, I can't AF I didn't feel like I could afford to try hard again and have it fail. And so when I got into this stuff and it began to be very practical and then our conversations, uh, were incredibly helpful to the point where I'm like, okay, I can sign up for the retreat and then go to the retreat. So, uh, so I did that. I got to the retreat and really wait, hold
(12:45): On pause. Okay. Okay. So, so here's, here's I mean, guys, have you ever been afraid of failing? You don't have to raise your hand if you're driving. Um, cuz if you do well don't okay. So the point is like, this happens all over the map. Okay. So this isn't just about as you're listening. Oh man. Do I have some big problem in my life pay attention every time that you have that little clutch in your chest, the little constriction in the throat, the little pit in the belly, that's like, I don't know the hesitation where you're like, ah, but what if I fail again? That's self doubt. That's there because you've tried and have things haven't worked in the past. So the thing I, I frequently talk to people about is like, look, if you continue to do it the way that you've tried. Yeah. Then you could, it's probably a very legit fear cuz it's probably gonna pan out the same way. So that's what I, I tell people don't I don't want you to trust the, I want you to pay attention. I want you to go in eyes open. I want you to try the things. And as they work or don't work, then we adjust from there. But everything is a very down to earth practical thing because that's where I had to come from. Nothing had worked for me and I had to make this stuff up as I went along because everybody else was telling me this was a lifelong thing like they had with Lee mm-hmm okay. And so it just, no matter what it is that you're trying to do in your life, consider that your best solution is not to hold back or fear.
(14:11): Oh, what if this doesn't go well, you'll never know until you try, the best thing you could do for yourself is actually learn to see what's really going on because then even if something fails or doesn't work, right, then you'll know how to course correct. Because you've learned how to see what's really there. And the problem with most of the education around trauma, around abuse, around depression, around anxiety, around all this other stuff is that, and you'll hear about this in my book. It comes out here in a couple months. Um, but the problem with most of it is that it, it just sort of, kind of went it veered off course a little bit and started talking about things that aren't actually where you and I have the capacity to make a change. So we're talking about vague things that like, I don't know, I have depression where in your body is a molecule of depression. Tell me, did, did no one has ever found one on the planet, not addiction, not depression, not anxiety. There are labels. And we started talking about labels and they started feeling like things. And so we're trying to fix this nebulous thing instead of handling the only thing that we can handle, which is what's really going on inside your brain and in your body,
(15:16): If you or someone, you know, is looking to drop the FBO of freedom in their life, whether that's from past trauma, depression, anxiety, addiction, or any other host of emotional and personal struggles, but they just don't know how or want some help doing it, head on over to the freedom specialist.com/feel better now and check out some of the things we've got in store for you or book a call. So we can look at your unique situation and get you the help that you're looking for. So you came. Yeah. Well, and I was gonna say, one thing that you just reminded me of is like, part of my fear was like, who am I without this trauma? Mm yeah. You know, because there's, there was a part of it and I wasn't, I wasn't conscious of this, but on this side of the healing and, and integration, if you wanna call it that, that I've experienced. Like, I was like rehearsing my trauma. And as I did that, it was almost like a stage performance. Like every time I had an audience and I would tell these stories and there'd be these OOS and OS and applause and, you know, women would cry literally, you know, as I would speak across the nation and I was getting something out of it, I wasn't aware that that's what I was doing, but I was, I was doing that, but this What came up at the retreat.
(16:33): Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so like at the retreat, there's a couple of different things. Well, first of all, I had a horrible time getting there. And for the first 24 hours, I was just looking for any reason to pull the hatch and escape, you know, like in the top gun, you know, like I'm gonna pull the hood and eject and um, and I don't really know why I stayed. Um, probably because I didn't have a way to, to get out, You know? Yeah. We, we, we locked him in the basement and he was screaming and claw and all, no, no, we could have let him go. But yeah, it wasn't my charm that wasn't keeping her around that's for sure. Well, there was a, we had done one exercise and, and I had some just amazing experiences in that exercise. And I think that was a part of what kept me there because I was like, wow, like that, I didn't expect that. And then we went into another exercise and for the first time in my life, I think that I looked at the whole situation as a whole. And I, I couldn't be positive about it. I couldn't deny it. I couldn't have Christian Christian around it. Like, I, I was forced to look at what was going on and in that process, I, I, I got as angry as I've ever been. Um, and Did it scare you to get that angry?
(17:48): Yeah, well, yeah, because my anger, uh, was never allowed in the family. And so I, I didn't know how to wield it well, and usually if I wielded it, it hurt me or it like there's, I, I literally got, I've gotten mad twice in my life. And the one time I beat this door frame completely out of a wall, like I couldn't even get out the space because all that anger was just sitting there. So imagine what it's like for me, five foot 11 to have a guy who's six foot 10 coming toward me with his hands in the air going, I just wanna hit something. And I'm like, oh, this is juicy . So I GRA, I was like, come on, come with me. We had a break. And so we went out back and, and, uh, looked at some things, well, he threw logs at rocks instead of people. Yeah. So like, I literally could not eat. And I'm like, I don't know what to do with myself because I'm either gonna hurt someone or I'm gonna hurt myself. And what that looked like in the past was that I've, I've punched walls and put holes in walls and, uh, broke my hand. I'm a stud finder. I, this right hand found a stud And, and I am a stud, so this was not gonna look good. just kidding guys.
(19:02): He's just being serious. so like, we went outside and he is like, grab a stump. And I'm like, okay. You know, like, I don't know what this is gonna do about anything, you know? And, and he put a rock down in front of me. He was like, throw it outta the rock. And I did, he goes, do it again. And I did it again and, uh, started breaking rocks. And I remember you're like, wow, how you doing that? You know? But No, to be fair, I tried and I couldn't break a single stone talking about a weakling. Okay. so, uh, like I was going at it and I was getting winded and tired and sweating, and I knew there was an audience. And I was like, I don't give a fuck. You know? And so I just kept going and, and you're like, are you done? I'm like, and I've never really been this way until I met you. uh, the snarkiness comes out of me when, when you ask me questions, sometimes it's like, are you done? I'm like, I don't know, am I, you know, I'm like, do you, you're like, do you want to be? I'm like, I don't know. Do I, you know, and I just remember, like, I don't, that's, that's not who I am, you know, but except That, apparently it is .
(20:08): So at that point, like you had me sit down and you're like, you just had simply said, this is what you do every day of your life. You pick up your story and you throw it down, you pick it up and throw it down. And I was like, I am so tired of that. And you're like, do you want to quit? I'm like, yes. And, and he said, well, we can do that. I'm like, I don't know how, and you're like, I can show you. And we, you know, spent the rest of that retreat, doing some of that. And I hesitate to say a whole lot more about the retreat because you should come and do your story, do your retreat your way and let it work into to where you're at. But like, I just remember leaving there and having a whole lot more energy, a whole lot more joy, realizing that I had lived most of my life waiting for everyone to fail me. That's everyone, not just one person, but everyone. And there was an exhorted amount of energy that I expended there trying to control that and control how I would be wounded. And during one of the exercises was able to let go of everybody and everything and be really, truly present to all that was around me. And I just, you know, it's like one of those things like, like you wake up from a coma or something like that. And you're like, wow, like the sun and the leaves and the tree and the grass, and that person smiled and the taste of this orange. And, you know, I've, I've had moments since then that just simply listening to wind chimes. And it's like the greatest symphony I've ever heard. And just, it's not in denial of anything that's happened, but it's in, it's in inclusion of everything that is actually happening.
(21:54): Like there's a, there's a part of negative experiences or, or trauma, as I had learned before, that was just made me so myopic that that's all I could see. And it incorrectly valued the trauma that I went through, it gave it way too much power and it took my life away. And through the retreat was really able to learn to be much more present to everything that was around me. And that, that all of creation was actually for me and working for me and I could sit and enjoy it. And it's, it's been phenomenal. So four days, no, we did some, he did, we have everybody do prep work before they come to a retreat. Right. And so he did some of that, but he did some additional coaching. We had some conversations, so he'd spent maybe a month and a half or month, month just Barely A month, a month, a month prior. And just a little bit of prep, four days he leaves. And the feeling of the trauma was would you say it was gone, gone? Interesting. Uh, I, I it's, I don't even think of those terms anymore. Yes. My devious plan is working to make people not even have to carry the burden. Yes. You can call it devious. That's okay. I'll admit it. I had this thought just two days ago. Like I hadn't thought about my mom for a long time, for a long time. And it was so odd because it used to be like a daily thing as I thought about the trauma and the things that happened and the things that she did to me, like it was a part of my every day and the other day I was, I was shocked that I hadn't thought, I mean, it was shocking to think. I hadn't thought about her. Um, so I mean, that's crazy. Right. But,
(23:33): But see, but, but the point is like people think they have a problem, right. And it's been labeled by friends, by society, by professionals, by all kinds of stuff. And so they have a problem. So in their mind, at the level of thinking they're at, at that moment, they're at a, they have a problem. You can't solve a problem at the level of thinking you are at. And I would say the level of being that you are at when you created the problem in your mind, that doesn't mean, I'm saying you created the circumstances. I'm saying that you looked at those circumstances and in some way, shape or form adopted them as a problem. And so once you shift your level of being you no longer see it as a problem, it's just circumstances again. And as a result, you just navigate it, however you wanna navigate it. You know that when something is gone, not because you feel like you've won, not because you feel like you've overcome, not because you're counting times when you've succeeded or anything like that. You know, when you've really like when it's really not a part of your life anymore, when it ceases to show up, even in your thought process.
(24:33): Yeah. You know, and the, and the thing I didn't know, and I we've talked about this before as well is like, I did not know that I didn't have to be controlled and led by the things that I felt no one had ever said to me, like, you don't have to feel depressed. You don't have to feel anxious. Here are some tools to do that. Like I would wake up in the morning and I would feel, uh, this day, you know, like, and then my whole day was set in that, in that direction. But to, to even do some of the simple things and say like, is this depression, you know? And then all of a sudden like, well, if it's not depression and all of a sudden, like immediately the, like my body is changing in that moment just by asking a question. But I never knew that I could do that in my family. Like, we were just like raw emotion. You, you know, you said, you know, it was just raw all the time. And there was no, no harnessing or no discipline of it at all. And I didn't know that I didn't have to feel what I was feeling in any given moment that I could challenge it. And that's been huge. It's been huge.
(25:41): Yeah. So, I mean, when you consider this, like you're listening to this, right. All the problems you think you have, who told you that those are problems, where did that idea come from? Where did the idea come from? That life should be different. Where did the idea come from that this is depression. This is anxiety. This is addiction. This is who told you that. And why do you have to believe him? What happens if you start questioning it? There's a guy by the name of Rupert Sheri, who he was raised. He was a scientist and just assumed sort of atheist, materiality, you know, materialist kind of atheism that's part of the part and parcel of it. So, I mean, he, I think he's in the seventies or eighties now. Um, and so he became a scientist, but he didn't feel really good doing experiments on animals. And so he became like a plant scientist and would do experiment with plants and things like that. And he realized somewhere along the way, that there were certain hard and fast rules of the land of science, right? These dog, mus of science, he called them that at the time that they were proposed were just hypotheses. You know, nature is a machine that operates in predictable patterns. You know, the laws of nature never change. Consciousness comes from whatever and so on and so forth. And he's like, he wrote a book called science set free. He's written a bunch of different books on morph, genetic fields and all these other kinds of things. But in that book, he TA lists 10 of these dogmas of material science. And he just turns 'em into questions: are the laws of nature constant, cuz there's a lot of evidence that suggests that they might not be that gravity operated differently at the time of dinosaurs than it does now.
(27:10): Possibly that doesn't mean that's right or wrong, cuz we could be interpreting the evidence wrong and all these other things. But who told you as a note? And I think I mentioned this recently, I mean there is very real peer reviewed data indicating that all research findings are false. Just because if you think about the number of variables that have to go into even creating a research project, you've got to come up with the question. Well, that's already subject to the biases of the people and the way that they think. And that question comes from assumptions hypotheses, right? So you gotta come up with the question, then you gotta design the experiment to filter out for information that you think will solve the question again, biases, then you gotta select the people or objects or things. You're gonna do it on again, biases and thought processes.
(27:56): And then you have to do, you know, the whole thing. Then you gotta collect the data. Then you gotta interpret the data and then you, you know, present it and all these other things and fitted into the worldview. And there's so many possible variables and places where every amount of bias goes on that every research finding on the planet, more or less there's some of them that surprise us, but more or less, all they do is confirm the present level of thinking of the people that did the experiment. And that's it. And so when you are dealing with a big problem, I want you to question that sucker who told you it was a problem who told you it's permanent? Who told you, you can never get free. Who told you it's hard? What if it's not hard? What if you really can put everything down? What if it's easier than anybody ever imagined? These are questions to sit inside and it doesn't matter what your problem is. It doesn't have to be trauma. It could just be that you've gotta, you know, you pick your nose in public and you wanna change that it, it or toot a lot or, well, it could be something totally different question it question every time you're afraid, is this really fear or is this a bodily responsive situation? And maybe it's just trying to tell me to pay attention to a piece of information that I overlooked. Hmm. So as we wrap up talking about Lee's life, we'll probably have him back for another episode, just so you know, um, any last, last minute thoughts about this? Yeah.
(29:22): I mean, there was some pretty incredible change that happened pretty immediately. Like the, like I didn't realize what stress and holding onto the trauma was doing to my body. But pretty quickly after that, my beard actually started getting darker and my hair started getting darker and it's like, no one has ever seen that before, including myself. I'm like, every time I talk to talk to you, I'd be like, is my beard getting darker? It's getting darker. You Know, he totally did. It would be like, Hey dude, look at my beard. Yeah. And it was just, You know, and the, the other thing was, is that I lost 30 pounds pretty quickly just because I wasn't using food to keep me up and keep me going. And it wasn't even a choice. It's just like, I just didn't need it. And those were things that happened for me personally. But then my friends and family were like, you're different. Like what's different. And it's, it's been fun to walk that out, but a whole lot's more happened, but that's initially what happened. And um, you know, I, I, I would say that if, if you're afraid of, you know, diving into this stuff that, that what I've experienced in the way of care and, um, understanding for people that have been through this process through year yourself, um, like I would've gladly had paid 10 times over what I, what I paid to be at the retreat, just because of the significant experience I've had and the way that it's impacted every aspect of my life.
(30:43): So if you guys are looking for some help, you really wanna shift your life and it doesn't have to be big things, right? It can be, you just feel stuck, whatever it is. If you're looking for a way to get back to what are the things that you're holding you back that you don't even know are there that are holding in your body, that, that they're not even in your thought process, you wouldn't know how to navigate it. This is why we have a team of people here to help. Um, you can go to the freedom specialist.com, schedule a call, and we'll talk through your situation. We'll look at what will help. Bottom line is this. You don't have to stay stuck any longer than you are willing to. And I got a lot of payment. I got a lot of pay off out of staying stuck. I got to do a lot of things. I got to avoid, uh, certain types of work. I got to stay depressed. I got to not take care of the kids. I got to resent my wife. I got to be the martyr. I got to be the guy that was broken and therefore merited being saved. I got so much payoff out of holding onto my pain and I didn't realize it at the time. And it's not an accusation. I wasn't a bad person because of that. It was just that I wasn't ready yet. But if you were really ready, then it really can go quickly.
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