A hearty welcome to “Grandma’s Wealth Wisdom” with your neighborly hosts, Brandon and Amanda Neely. This is the only podcast that helps you take charge of your cash flow and leverage your assets, simply and sustainably, the way Grandma used to.
Amanda: Hi, I’m Amanda, and welcome to our Grandma's Wealth Wisdom, where we help you break through to a smart, stable financial future, with the tried and true wisdom Grandma used.
This is Episode 84 where I’m interviewing Jennifer Grimson, and we've titled the episode, “The Protection of Micro Empires.” A quick heads up that this episode is recorded live on YouTube, so it's really great as a listen on the podcast, but if you'd prefer to watch and see the comments and the interaction that we refer to verbally but don't share all the details, you're welcome to watch it on YouTube as well. [01:06.5]
I’ll put the link in the show notes, so you could pop over there, and while you're there, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel as well, so that you can find the content that we release there that's not always on the podcast.
I think that's it by way of introduction. I think you'll love this interview with Jennifer, and after the interview, stay tuned for my big takeaways and what I learned from talking with her.
…
Amanda: Good afternoon and welcome to Grandma's Wealth Wisdom, and I’m Amanda Neely. With me as the beautiful Jennifer Grimson, joining me today for an interview.
If you're not familiar with Jennifer, she is a podcaster, an entrepreneur, a speaker, an amazing woman. I’m really excited for you to hear her story today. Please join me in welcoming Jennifer. So good to have you here today. [02:00.8]
Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.
Amanda: Yeah, great. I thought we, as people are kind of getting settled in, give everybody a heads up that I’ve got some questions prepared. I have no idea how you're going to answer them. If people have questions, I’ll be monitoring the comments on YouTube and Facebook, and so we might also throw something at you that comes from the audience as well and that's definitely invited, and you can always just say pass if you don't want to answer it.
Jennifer: Okay, great.
Amanda: Okay, but let's start with going way back. What was money like for you growing up?
Jennifer: Oh, I love this question because I ask all of my guests that same question. I grew up with two parents who came from poor households, but they wouldn't say that they were poor. They both came from the City of Boston. They were both one of six children. My mom lived in a one-bedroom apartment above a store, with eight people living in it and everybody worked, so they came from very, very humble beginnings. [03:03.5]
My father was an engineer. My mother was a homemaker until I went to school. I’m the youngest of six as well, so lots and lots of babies all the time. I was just raised really conservatively about money. Save your money. Credit is bad. Credit cards are bad. Never live above your means and just work, work hard, hard, hard, and maybe you'll be lucky enough to retire when you're 65. That's how I grew up around money.
Amanda: Yeah? Very common story that, for a lot of us, if our parents have grown up in poverty, they kind of hand those things off to us, but we don't always follow the example that they had or we test the waters ourselves. What was that for you like as a young adult, kind of learning how to use money on your own?
Jennifer: I think as a young adult on my own, all those lessons just stayed with me. I just believed in it. I think the good thing is that because of my upbringing, money was not tied to my identity, meaning, it didn't matter that I had a little apartment or drove a little crappy car. It didn't say anything about who I was. [04:10.5]
But I married someone. I married my first boyfriend. I met him when I was 21 0years old and he was much older than me, and his money culture was a hundred percent 360 degrees in the other direction and that led for me to a life of, I call that period of time, financial chaos—and that's what happens often in couples, right? To make it really simple, a saver and a spender, but it's more complex than that. I’m busy eating rice and trying to survive, and he's running up the credit card bill.
What I understand now is that much of that is tied emotionally to how it makes you feel. I can look back on that and understand it, but it doesn't change the pain that it caused. Living like that is miserable.
Amanda: Yeah, and sounds like there were probably a lot of lessons that you learned from that kind of in hindsight, but living through that was probably no fun at all. [05:09.7]
Jennifer: No, it was no fun at all. Not at all. My story is I lost everything twice and it was due to that individual, and the first time was when I left with the children, so that's when I found myself with no car, no job, no money, no place to live, and two kids, so it was miserable. Money doesn't solve everything, but it does give you options.
Amanda: Yeah. Keep telling us the story and then we'll kind of come back and pick out the lessons learned from it. What happens from there? I know you're in a completely different place now, so that journey is one to tell and I know I’m excited to hear more about it. Let's fill everybody else in, too.
Jennifer: The way I usually tell the story is that I’m somebody who lost everything twice, so, again, no money, no car. I like to be very specific about when I say everything, it was everything and I was in Chapter 13 bankruptcy twice. [06:08.7]
The way I got there, I’ll share with you, but I also think many of us get there in different ways and it doesn't matter, but the lessons are different. The way I got there was that I turned … two things.
Number one, my ex-husband sued me 25 times in 10 years. He lives in California and he just continued to relentlessly sue me and punish me financially through the court system that drove me into bankruptcy that absolutely wiped me out. I spent $500,000 in attorney's fees—or, I should say, I didn't spend because I could only pay a portion of that—just trying to fight all those lawsuits and that is a possibility. It's rare. I just want to say that most divorces are not like that.
But the second time, again, it was a relational mistake. I had turned my financial wellbeing over to someone else, which I think many of us do. I had allowed my partner to really take the reins and I lost sight of who I was. I lost sight of everything, and when that relationship finally crumbled, I found myself again in the same circumstance and that was a huge wake up call to say the least. [07:17.7]
Amanda: Yeah. So, where do you go from there? How did you turn things around to get to where you are now?
Jennifer: The very, very specifics of it I cover in the podcast, so anybody listening can go and listen to the first few episodes, if you want to know step by step by step because I do like to share that.
But the first thing was, I mean, literally I had to have a place to live. I talk about this and I now share any book about this. Part of when you hit a crisis, the first thing you need to do is really assess or take stock of what you have and what you don't have. I was so concerned with keeping what I had, staying in the neighborhood I had, keeping the kids in private schools, doing all these things, I wasn't focused on what was available to me. It was that my sister was going to let us move in. [08:08.8]
That's what I did, the second time I moved in with my sister, me and my two kids, and we were there for four months while I looked for work. I looked for work. I got a job. I’ve always been able to get an executive-level job, so I knew I could get a good-paying job. I got us a place to live and we were out on our own, but I knew then that I had to learn the lesson, and if I didn't learn the lesson, I was just going to keep making this mistake over and over and over again.
The common denominator in all of this, I mean, I can point fingers, all those things, but at the end of the day, I’m the common denominator, so I have to take responsibility for how I’ve got there, so I wanted to learn all those lessons. It took me three years to rebuild my credit after two Chapter 13 bankruptcies and the first I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle because that was very, very hard, and that's a funny story, in and of itself. [09:02.8]
I managed to purchase a home and the real game-changer, I mean, all this entire time, I am still working a corporate job, the game-changer for me … a couple things. I’ll step back. After purchasing the home, I knew that I wanted to create small pockets of other areas that could support me because I just didn't need this to happen again, so that's why I called the show Micro Empires. I wanted to create these little pockets that could create income.
I was doing that in several different ways and then I discovered Airbnb and I’m in Nashville, Tenn., and it was 2014, and once I realized what that opportunity was, I jumped in with both feet and I basically rented out my house. I mean, it's only a minute ago, it was 2014, but people at the time were like, Are you crazy? You're letting people sleep on your couch, and my answer was, “Yeah, six nights a month pays the mortgage. Of course, I am,” so I made myself homeless pretty quickly. [10:02.6]
But then, meanwhile, alongside of that, I was learning all of these secret, quote, “secret tools of the wealthy” that would allow me to continue to build wealth, one of which was borrowing against a 401(k), and I did that several times. The second was the ability to move into a house for three to five percent down.
I borrowed against a 401(k) that's without tax or penalty. It's different than cashing out. I didn't know that existed. I moved in, bought my second house, moved in with an air mattress and a dog, and furnished it, got it up and running on Airbnb. Bought a third house, moved into it, got it up and running on Airbnb, and just created these really powerful assets that were creating income day and night, and it was incredible. That was a real game-changer for me and my goal was to get to a place where I could leave my corporate job. [10:58.0]
Amanda: Yeah, yeah, because I could hear a lot of people hearing your story, and that moment where you’re living with your sister, you get a job, and then you use that to buy the first house. They probably thought, Oh, she's set then, she’s done. But the thing about a job is that it can be lost just even easier than a relationship, and you're in the same place, right?
Jennifer: Right.
Amanda: And too many people that happens to.
Jennifer: Right.
Amanda: I love that you kept the story going. You didn't just settle with the job, but how to build even more security for yourself from there.
Jennifer: Right, and my career was always in sales, and so I am not a believer in … I mean, I’m loyal to a company when I work for them, but they can let me go at any point and that certainly has happened. I feel bad for folks who put all of their chips into their nine to five. It may work out great, but if it doesn't and you have nothing else to fall back on, it's a very scary place.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah, so that was definitely something I knew I had to do. [11:57.8]
Amanda: Yeah, and that could be true of anything. You put all your chips in your 401(k) for retirement or you put all your chips in your pension for retirement. That's part of what I love about the idea of micro empires. All of a sudden, you've got three.
Not all of a sudden. You’ve worked hard. You've put in the effort. You’ve built those three houses that are an Airbnb. They're each their own micro empire. What else becomes part of your system of protecting yourself and your family and your futures?
Amanda: I just really doubled down on the investment. I joined a real estate investor group here, and one thing I didn't know was that when I say real estate investor, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to buy a house or build an apartment or anything. In fact, real estate, being involved in real estate, you may never own a piece of property, so there are a million ways to make money in real estate.
I loved that there was so much to learn and then I had a choice of what to do across the board and I learned one of the tools was a self-directed IRA where I could take an old 401(k) and convert it into a vehicle that could then make investments for me. [13:06.7]
Once I learned about that, I was like, How have I not known about this my whole life? This is crazy, and I actually quit my job. I had another job, but I quit it because I had been doubling down on the 401(k) for a few years and I had about $150,000, and I wanted to take that and I had easily doubled that money by making investments through the self-directed IRA, so it [unclear 13:30.4] as an entity.
Now it's a retirement thing. You probably know this, but maybe your listeners don't know. This is not cash I have access to. It's just like your 401(k). It's a retirement fund, but I direct where it goes. We've done a land deal. We've done multifamily.
I say we because my husband, once I told him about it, too, also a very savvy investor person, we've only been married for three years, but when he found out about it, he also immediately moved all of his money into that, so that he could start investing as well alongside. [14:08.2]
That's been an incredible tool to build with. I also bought stock in a company, so you can direct it towards a lot of things and there are a lot of different ways to do that, but people really believe you either leave it in a 401(k) or you cash it out and pay the taxes and penalty, and there are a lot of different options besides that.
Amanda: For sure, yeah, and I know with self-directed, there can be lots of hoops to jump through and rules to follow, so kudos for you for learning all of those and making sure that you're still crossing those t's and dotting those i’s that the government requires. I know that can take a lot of work, too, that a lot of people don't think about.
Jennifer: Yeah. That's why I hired a company who does it to make sure.
Amanda: Right, yeah, good. When I kind of look back at this and look at the whole story, what would you say are some of the main lessons that, say, you’d want to pass on to your grandchildren? [15:02.2]
Jennifer: Oh my gosh. I have grandchildren, so I will be passing them on. I think number one is don't abandon yourself ever.
Amanda: Amen.
Jennifer: Right? And we tend to do that. We tend to be such that the first person we abandon is ourselves and that encompasses don't ever turn your financial wellbeing over to another human being. Now, I say that all the time and I was asked in another interview, what about a financial planner? And I’m like, Great, if you have one, wonderful, but that financial planner works for you.
Amanda: Yes.
Jennifer: You get control and you get to dictate, and if they aren't comfortable with it, find yourself another one. That goes the same for your tax person, your lawyer, anybody like that. They are on your payroll and I think we forget that because it's a highly-educated person with a specialized degree or license and it can be intimidating, but you are dictating that. I think don't abandon yourself, so I just call that. [16:00.6]
Amanda: Yeah. I’m going to pause you there for a second because I a hundred percent agree and, in fact, I believe any financial professional, whether they be an accountant or a financial planner or whatever, they should be empowering you to make decisions, showing you your options, helping educate you on what you can do, and then, like you said, following your direction.
I do have to jump in here. Our good friend of the show, Lester Himmel, asked this question. What changed your investment direction? What gave you the confidence for that new direction? I think maybe he’s talking about switching from the 401(k) to the self-directed IRA. Where did the wisdom come from? If you don't mind talking about that for a second.
Jennifer: Wow. That's a great question. Thank you. [16:40.0]
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Jennifer: What changed my investment direction, if he's talking about the 401(k), it was learning that I could take that $150,000 and control it, and learning that I could be an active player in real estate, and I could take it out, put in a self-directed and redirect it right back into the stock market. You're not limited to that. The limitations are other, like you said.
And where did they get that wisdom? It was from going to this real estate investor group and just swimming in the pool. I call it swimming in the pool. You’ve got to get in the pool. I knew I was swimming in the right pool, but I was surrounded by Olympic swimmers and I’m in the middle of the pool with my floaties on, but I’m in the right pool.
You, by osmosis, will absorb, and over a period of time, ultimately, have presenters and speakers, and you just dive in and you're surrounded. You have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. You have to be comfortable not speaking the language. [18:12.7]
But I dove in and this gentleman by the name of Mike Todd, he's been on my show, came to speak to us one time and told us about this product and I couldn't believe it. I didn't believe it. I went back to him probably four times before I actually made the switch.
Amanda: Okay, let's go back to those lessons. First one is to never abandon yourself or let someone else take control for you, and control is a big word for me, so I love that you kind of tied that in that really the self-directed is about taking control, too. Let's keep going with that, lessons for our grandchild.
Jennifer: I think one is understanding your own money culture, so spend the time to do things like ask yourself the question that you asked me. How did you grow up? How did it make you feel? How does that affect you now? Because my money culture, not really my parents’, it was my experience of losing everything twice, so I have a huge fear and I still live with that fear. I’ve just decided to make friends with it. [19:12.0]
But me knowing about it allows me to talk to my husband about it who does not have the same money culture and he knows that I live in fear around, Oh, my God, are we going to be able to pay the bills or are we this, or what's our comfort level? A lot of it is just the fear of being abandoned in some way, either by myself or somebody else.
Knowing your own money culture, especially if you're somebody whose identity is tied, like you're doing the wrong things—you're in debt, you're stressed out, but you're driving a Range Rover and carrying a $1,500 purse—you need to look at that and understand it and what it really means to you.
That would be the second thing, and I was going to say one more. What was it? Don't abandon yourself. Know your money culture. Always have multiple streams of income, of course.
Amanda: Yeah. [20:00.5]
Jennifer: No matter how small. That's part of the micro empires, too. We tend to do things. We tend to minimize our own importance, so we'll be like, Oh, I have a little bakery business I do on the side. I have a house.
I have one rental property. It's not a big [deal]. No, it's your empire, so treat it like an empire. Respect it like an empire. I have streams of income that bring in tiny, tiny amounts of money, but I respect those streams of income and I could lean on any one of them at some point, if I needed to.
Amanda: Yeah, because it might be a stream, but you put a little fuel to the fire and it can become a river. Yeah, love it. But it's really hard to create us a river from nothing, but if you've got the stream going, you can ramp it up.
Jennifer: Right. If you get fried from a job and you have none of this in place, that could be a really scary place. [20:55.8]
Amanda: I’ve got a text message from somebody who's watching that didn't want to put this in the comments, but they asked me to share. I’m doing something kind of similar to you where I’ve been building up a pile of money that I control that now I can self-direct how I want into real estate, and part of actually why I’ve got connected with you is because we're exploring what it would look like to jump into the real estate arena.
Not quite yet. There are some things coming up that I’m excited to try to time a little bit, but mine are in what we call a bank-on-yourself designed whole life insurance policy and, for me, that's going to act as my money to direct into real estate and have control over, and that whole control thing is the biggest thing for me there, too. I jive with you a lot with a lot of what you're sharing.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Amanda: Lester came up with another question. He always has the best questions. Have you always been comfortable swimming against the stream?
Jennifer: Lester, I grew up in the ’80s. I’m six feet tall with red hair, so what does that tell you? I guess I kind of always felt like an outcast in a lot of ways, like I didn't really fit in. I don't know if I was comfortable with it. [22:11.3]
I mean, would I have liked to have been more popular or whatever? That would have been great, but I will say that the second time this happened, I was 41 years old and my mindset was, I’m going to figure this out.
I’m going to figure this out and I’m not going to do anything else. I’m not going to be in a relationship. I’m not going to do anything else until I figure this out. I don't care what it looks like. I don't care if I’m embarrassed. I don't care if people think it's stupid. I’m going to figure it out and I’m going to do it. That mindset is hard to have, but I do think that being a bit of a loner/outcast probably helped because I didn't know a lot of people to please, to be honest.
Amanda: Yeah, yeah, love that. Okay, let's talk about now and looking into the future. What's next? Where are we moving? If you think about your own grandma, if she were here today, what would she be proud of? Yeah. [23:08.8]
Jennifer: I saw this question and I’m trying not to cry. If my grandma was alive, she'd be well over 100 and my grandmother, the one I’m thinking of, was a mother of six and she lived in poverty her whole life, and she worked in a factory and she literally lost her fingers in a factory accident, so literally worked her fingers to the bone.
She was the most loving, kind person, who never understood money at all. I mean, I think if she could see me now—it's so different from our family what I’ve done—I think she would just be proud and just like, I can't believe that this is possible, because she raised her children to believe you go to work or you become a housewife, and I was raised the same way. Not the housewife part, but you go to college, you go to work, and that's all you do. [24:03.4]
Amanda: Yeah, such a different time for her, too, to imagine. Women couldn't even sign a loan without a co-signer and things like that back in our grandparents' days, so, yeah, totally unbelievable. What's next? What's coming down the pipe for you? What are you excited about?
Jennifer: It's interesting you bring up real estate, right? It has a million different layers. We have dabbled in multifamily. I love multifamily, but there are several different layers, which you're probably exploring as well. Right? You can buy one yourself. You can do a joint venture. You could do a syndication.
My husband purchased a multifamily, 51 units, here in Tennessee, and we learned. We never managed it. We had a management company, but we learned even that was too close. Again, it's about knowing who you are and what we learned was we don't want to know that the HVAC unit is out. We don't want to know that we need new toilets. We don't want to know any of it. [24:59.7]
What we want to do is put our money into something that's going to turn around and make us more money and we're not really going to think about it very much, and we're going to benefit from taxes and that's through syndication. We did our first, entered our first syndication deal last year, did a second one just last week in Chattanooga.
Amanda: Congratulations.
Jennifer: Thank you. And I, actually, through the show and through my connections, et cetera, I’m working with investors because bringing investors alongside but only things that I will invest in myself, so multifamily, for sure, and actually self-storage. We're going to have dinner tonight with a guy from self-storage, so it's funny you ask.
Amanda: Yeah, fun and it's always good to keep growing and exploring new things, and that's one of the things that's so appealing about real estate that there are so many ways to do it. It's like a choose-your-own-adventure or like you finish one chapter and you get to choose what the next chapter is going to be. What's the next thing you're going to invest in or what you're going to go with it? [26:01.0]
Jennifer: Right, and for a lot of your … so I went to drinks the other night with some investors from New Jersey who have been down here in Tennessee investing for 20 years. They have 70 houses, but they weren't familiar with things like cost segregation, another tool of the wealthy, and they weren't familiar with the fact they could put those all together and benefit tax-wise, and they've been missing out on those opportunities, to be frank
But just like whole life insurance, I think that's the point that there are all these tools that are available that people can use in different ways that have been used for years. But whole life insurance gets a name because people confuse it with other types of insurance, and so it just takes education and keeping down that road until you understand it, and don't give up until you understand it in a way and in a language that you get and don't feel bad if you don't. [27:00.0]
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. Keep learning and exploring and, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think we are getting close to the end here with our questions. If anybody else has any further comments that you want to ask Jennifer, please share those.
I want to make sure you get to share how people can connect with you, what's the best way to be in touch. I’m going to put your email or your website up on the screen here. Highly recommend Jennifer's podcast. Please listen to it. I’m a new subscriber and I’ve been listening to a few episodes, excited to dig into it more. But how else can people connect with you?
Jennifer: The website and the podcast are great. Instagram, @microempires on Instagram. Also, Facebook community. I’d love for folks to join there because that's where I’m really going to be putting a lot of the new opportunities, things like that.
LinkedIn, just connect with me. Twitter is just under my name. I’m always thrilled and I’d love for people to reach out.
People, there's a thing on my [website]. You can set an appointment. Thank you, Lester. You can set an appointment on the website to talk to me for 20 minutes or shoot me a question on email. [28:07.2]
I am so surprised and honored and humbled by what people send and write and share. This is all really personal stuff. People will talk about their sex life before those talk about money. It’s true.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jennifer: I’m just really honored about that. Please go ahead and reach out.
Amanda: Great, and I wish you the best with your endeavors. In one of our previous conversations, you shared with me some of the things you're exploring. I’m really excited to stay up to date on those things and have you back on the show in the future to share kind of how things have evolved.
One of the things that's awesome about the world we live in now is that we get to go along people's journeys with them. Thanks for involving us in your journey today and we look forward to the next time we get to be part of your journey as well.
Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me on. This was really fun.
Amanda: Thank you. Okay, everyone go and subscribe to the Micro Empires Podcast. Follow Jennifer on Insta. Wherever you want to connect with her, please do that. [29:03.0]
If you want her to be back on the show, please comment in the comments. Let us know that I’m sure we'll share with Jennifer what you have just shared there as well. If you're watching the replay, comments are still open. You can still comment, like, subscribe, all those kinds of fun things on the YouTube here.
We'll talk to you soon. In the meantime, keep building your financial path, so that you can break through to a smart, stable, financial future.
…
Amanda: Wasn't that a beautiful interview? And Jennifer has such a great story. I was so excited for you to hear some of that. I want to touch on a couple of things that she talked about. First, you probably recognize the ups and downs in your stories, how your story probably has very similar ups and downs.
Even when you think things are up, they can go down again and that’s I think also maybe part of why Jennifer has become so focused on building micro empires that can protect her, her family and her future. It’s because she has been through those ups and downs. [30:09.6]
I see this, too, with people who all they do is invest in the stock market with their 401(k), and then they've lived through the dotcom crash in the early-2000s. They’ve lived through the Great Recession and what happened in 2008 with their stock portfolio. They see the ups and downs within years, too, within months, on the same day, and they decide, I’m done with this. I want to try something different, and they, again, seek out that protection.
There are a lot of different ways to do that. I love how Jennifer has found her path to building multiple streams of income and making sure she's treating each one of those as an empire, so that if she ever needs to rely on one more fully, she can turn it into a river of income quickly, hopefully, and also having multiple ones. If something does happen to one, you still can rely on all the others. [31:02.8]
She has chosen to do that through a self-directed IRA. There are other ways to, of course, pile up money that then you can use and have more control over situations, right? Her coming into real estate investing with some 401(k) funds at first, so that she was able to borrow from, and then with her self-directed IRA, where she was able to deploy more of those funds after her dreams. That probably gave her a lot more control over the real estate investing she was doing.
That's a lot of what I love about how my reference in there to the whole life insurance policies that we have that that's where we're piling up the money, so then we go into certain situations where we're looking to grow our wealth and/or create multiple streams of income. We have more control because we're bringing more money to the table that way.
Then I’ll quickly recap the three big things that she shared. You might write these down, think about them a little more.
Don't abandon yourself, ever. That was number one. Don't abandon yourself, ever. [32:02.8]
Number two, understand your own money culture. How do you think about money? Where does that come from?
Then number three, always have multiple streams of income.
If you would like to leave a comment or ask a question for us or for Jennifer, again, the link to the YouTube video is in the show notes. Please check that out. Leave a comment, subscribe, like, all those things on the YouTube, as well as be sure that you subscribe to the podcast here.
We're into our summer of interviews and we've got an amazing interview coming up next—and I promise Brandon will be back on the next episode as well. Hit that subscribe button and join us then.
Until next time, keep building your wealth, simply and sustainably, so you can break through to a smart, stable financial future. [32:53.1]
The topics presented in this podcast are for general information only and not for the purposes of providing legal, accounting or investment advice. On such matters, please consult a professional who knows your specific situation.
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