There's two types of people who hear consensual sales in the first go, Oh, Eww, Shawna, that is not what you want to say. There are better words to use and the second type here, consensual sales and say, you know what? You're right. I don't want to talk my way into the sale. I don't want to memorize a script. You just want to work with clients who are excited to work with you. Now that's consensual sales.
So hello everybody, you are listening to consensual sales, the podcast. And today I have someone who I think is so cool and comes across, so chill on the internet and his name is last lags by accident. So yeah, so last, basically we crossed paths on Twitter and I've been watching his feed probably for about a year now. And you, you help men really like in the dating world, right?
(00:52): Yeah. Yeah. And so, so when you speak about this subject, there's actually a lot of overlap in selling and connecting and building relationships with people that I really resonate with your message. So when you released your new book, the most interesting man in the room I like, I bought it right away, probably was like the top two to three people who bought instantly because I saw it in my email. I was like I have to buy this. And so when I was going through the book again a lot of overlap with client booking businesses putting themselves out there and so that's really what I want to talk about today is some of the lessons in the book that highlight sort of again connecting, building relationships, putting yourself out there, but also just kind of getting your perspective on some scenarios that a lot of people end up happening that like client booking businesses run into with with get into trouble with stuff. Sorry, does that make sense? I'm kind of talking. Okay, great. Great. You know what's up? Well catch us up to speed with who you are exactly. Like give yourself a good solid introduction here so everybody knows who you are.
(01:49): Of course. So my name is [inaudible]. I'm 28 years old. I'm based out of San Francisco. This whole thing started for me about five years ago when I graduated college, moved to San Francisco, not knowing anybody, all of my friends decided to move elsewhere. And I moved here kind of just basically starting from scratch. And I remember witnessing a lot of people with a bunch of friends and just really succeeding and crushing it and having a bunch of things to do. And I was kinda like I don't have anything. And at the same time I was jump-starting my sales career, so I knew I wanted to be in sales. That's something I kind of discovered in the last couple months of my senior year when I started a side business. And there was a lot of overlap between sales and just building relationships and also dating.
(02:39): And I've learned a lot within about a year or two of moving here. And I published a couple articles on the internet on Reddit specifically, and they went viral. So I was like, okay, maybe I have some ideas here that people think are interesting. I'm just gonna keep on sharing. And it's also really cool, right? As you know, just the idea of people's skills and how it applies to a lot of aspects of life is really interesting. Whether that's, as you know in my book there's a dating focus, but a lot of it is actually very universal where it actually even helps out with business and a lot of the principles that I write about in that book, I used to this very day in some of my sales conversations, so that's sort of like my background. That's sort of how I got started and I'm constantly fascinated myself by just what I continue to learn and practice every single day.
(03:36): Thank you for sharing that. When you said that some of your posts had gone viral, I was actually on your website earlier and you have like thousands and thousands of views on some of your blog posts and I'd love to know which of the blog posts where you were like, wow, like this is a really big hit, or like I struggle.
(03:51): Yeah, there was one confidence that I remember writing a couple of years ago that that has I think over 7,000 views on it. There's been a couple of questions regarding social media and how to use social media that I've since deleted because I tried to repackage in a book but ultimately actually ended up giving that book away. But the most interesting articles on there are the ones that revolve around how to use social media to do, you know, develop relationships, right? We've got this thing, this app, whether it's Snapchat or Instagram or even Facebook, where you can create stories and kind of share about yourself and your life with people and you can make it really interesting and people will actually respond to you or reach out to you. And I thought that's very fascinating, right? We don't have to rely on just, you know, person to person contact or face to face interactions to develop a solid first impression on someone. I mean, as you know, you kind of follow me on Twitter and you can see that you get a sense of like, Oh, maybe this guy's core interest in easygoing. It's interesting.
(04:51): Yeah. Yeah. I just go ahead cause that's literally one of the first questions that I wrote. I wrote that down. I was like, first of all, I need to know how do you come across so cool and chill on the internet? Like how can we do that? How can we convey that online?
(05:06): Right. I think that's a great question and something I think about a lot actually because the internet is filled with influencers and gurus and coaches and you know, there's just a lot of money to be made on the internet and obviously that brings out people who want to like almost express their personality and in some ways even try harder than they usually do to like get an audience or to get hurt or get attention. I've tried to stray away from that. I don't have the biggest following, but I would say that the following I do have is very engaged and committed to what I have to say. And it's not uncommon for me to have actually solid one-on-one relationships with some of my readers. And I think the way I've developed that personally is just, it feels like I'm trying or overly trying to exert myself or my personality.
(05:55): I'm doing it wrong. I want to be me. I just want to do it right. I want to be socially intelligent and I want to be genuine. If I'm trying to help someone, I'm really truly trying to help them. I'm not trying to be a guru or a coach, although that's definitely a solid byproduct of having good people skills. Right? And just being chill and being authentic and not trying so much is that people let their guard down too. And it's something that I try and sell every single day. It's how I develop good relationships with my customers as well, where I'm not trying to be this impeccable professional salesperson, guru who can provide every answer for them. I'm on their level and if I don't know the answer to something I, you know, I, I humbly admit them like, Hey listen, I don't know the answer to this. Let's try to work together and we can figure it out together and we'll come to the conclusion together.
(06:43): Yeah, I totally agree. And you speak on like this is another point that you talk about in your book is that if you want like confidence, if you want to be like the most interesting man in the room, part of that is first identifying like who you are exactly and that is like heavy life ongoing work, but you make this emphasis in the beginning to really drive this point home is that you're never going to be confident and like interesting if you don't first identify who you are.
(07:11): Yeah, exactly. To kind of go on that a little bit more, this sort of applies to dating, but it totally applies to client work as well. I'll kind of share a few examples. So when I initially wrote that I was single kind of transitioning out of the single life kind of getting into a relationship and I really started to learn what worked for me and what's worked for a lot of my buddies who are just incredible people, really easygoing and have a good network. They are guys who they're not really trying to appeal to anybody. They're just being themselves and they kind of use this as like a disqualification process. They are extremely themselves. My buddy Nate, who I strongly respect because it being your super self, so it's more just bringing out like more of who you are. If you're, for example, if you're a nerdy w worm type of guy, don't try to be someone who's all into sports or football or always keeping up with the stats on sports.
(08:10): Like that's not you. You're a nerdy bookworm guy who loves reading and loves literature. Why don't you bring that out more and share that more and then let people figure out if they like that or if they don't. And if they don't like that, no biggie. Like I don't pay attention to them. You're not going to be a fit for everyone, but the people who do like that, they're going to be intrigued and they'll be drawn in a little bit more than usual because you're unapologetic about it. You're unapologetically expressing yourself and I found that that was very useful as opposed to trying to be cool with everybody. I'm not saying it'd be disrespectful or you know, let go of any social intelligence in this process, but by being yourself and in a way being your super self, really bringing out all of yourself, you're attracting more of who you are and it actually helps with the networking and you're kind of pushing to the side of the other people who probably wouldn't be into you anyway who you probably wouldn't have developed a solid connection with. Anyway, I try to bring that in in my business conversations. I definitely try to bring that into my networking and just casual social relationships as well. Though I'm not a good fit for everybody. Not everyone's going to like me. I'm looking for the guys who I can have a solid connection with and bring into my network and go out with and just have awesome times with.
(09:30): So fundamentally like you're trying to establish connections first on like a similar interest or like a similar vibe,
(09:37): What'd you say? Yes. In a way. It's almost like showcasing more of who you are and letting the market kind of respond to it, letting people respond to it. And you're kind of in a way, putting out feelers. Sometimes I'll talk about really nerdy things or things that particularly interests me, which always tends to revolve around sales or people skills and not everyone cares to talk about that. And I can see that. I can read the room like, Oh, okay, that guy doesn't really even care about reading this kind of stuff. Or he doesn't care about dating dynamics or social dynamics. Not really even going to try to market to them. But then there's this guy over here who's asking me a couple more questions. He seems really intrigued. I'm going to go and try to talk to him more because clearly he's buying into what I'm saying. So it's in a way kind of you're putting out feelers, you're talking and being yourself so that you can kind of see what the room responds like. And that's sort of what the point of expressing yourself more. That's what the point is, right? You're trying to just see who's into it and who's not. Yeah.
(10:36): In the book you also talk about how when you are confident in who you are and you don't, you're not like wishy washy or you're not like confusing. You're not trying to be like somebody else that you're not. It actually like subconsciously lets people know that you're of higher status because that means you're not easily manipulated, you're not easily influenced. So like on a subconscious level, even if people aren't necessarily like connecting with you by just being like more of who you are and like being confident around that, that presence, like you end up attracting more people anyway. Right. Would you say, can you elaborate on that a little bit? Cause it's such a great point.
(11:10): Yeah. You know the social world works really interesting. Like you would think that by micromanaging your impression on people and caring more about people's feelings and thoughts and caring more about how you present yourself so you'd actually garner more results and more relationships. But in a way it's actually about letting go and not caring so much about how you're presenting yourself. And, and not, and being unapologetic about how you express yourself, that you actually end up getting more positive impressions and you actually have more people aligning with you. It's kind of what you're essentially sub communicating is bravery. People are like, wait a second, this guy doesn't care. He's not an idiot by any means. He's not being rude or strange, but you can tell that he's just comfortable with himself and that sub communicates a lot of great things about you. Sip communicates bravery, so it communicates confidence and those are the types of things that attract people as opposed to someone who's always trying to desperately kind of get some type of rapport. You know, you're, you're actually doing the opposite. You're not even trying for it. And it's just ironic that that's actually what works best. You know? It's like the opposite effect
(12:26): There. I think there's like a saying like that. Like if you try to do something over and over again, like you often end up not with the result that you're going for, but the opposite in fact. Yeah.
(12:34): It's like some principle that's called or something. I think that there's something really great to be said about trying less and the art of not trying, this is actually something that I learned not from any type of social book I was reading or any self development book I was reading. I used to go to a posture coach and he kind of has this way of going about fixing your body essentially so that you can stand up straight but without having to force yourself to stand up straight. It's kind of paradoxical is interesting. And I was like, that's interesting. So I'm supposed to fix my posture without forcing myself to stand up straight. That's interesting dynamic. And it worked a strangely worked and I'm like, what if we could apply this to other parts of life? You know? For example, what if I didn't try so much in my social interactions? It just kind of let go in a way and it worked. It had a similar effect. So I think there's definitely, it's a fine balance of like, yes, being aware and conscious of what works and what doesn't, but also not caring about it too much. You have to strike that perfect balance.
(13:45): How does this translate into business where you're like, okay, like I need a client. Like I'm ready to roll up my sleeves, like I have to go try something, but I don't want to come across like too desperate or needy, like what's the line there for people to navigate?
(13:56): Yeah. I think for business it's a little bit interesting. There's certainly some overlap in the dating market, which is primarily where I focus. It's called outcome dependence. When you care too much about getting that day or that end of the date kiss or whatever you want, if you focus on it too much, it actually ends up killing the opportunity. Whereas if you focus on just enjoying it, you actually do really well and I think in business it's very similar where if you're overly focused on closing that deal, they can almost smell the hunger and the thirst in your questions and in your requests. I found that by really focusing on them and what they care about, it totally wipes out that eagerness or desperation you truly do have to care about what does this person want? Am I the best fit for them? If not, no worries.
(14:50): Send in a separate direction. If yes, let's hash out a couple more details. It's in this person's best interest that I help them and I know I've got something here. I think that's one part of it and in business and definitely in business development. I think another part of it though is recognizing what comes easy to you might come very difficult to others and just because you find it very easy doesn't mean that other people find it easy. They're typically looking for someone to help teach them that skill or that whatever product you're offering, they want that, but they find it hard and if you find it easy, that's definitely your expertise. I think that's helped me tremendously in my career and even in my side house. So with dating, sometimes I have conversations with owners and directors at these large companies and they're asking me for my expertise.
(15:41): I'm like, wait a second. You come from like this large company funded really well. Tons of money. You have way more experienced than me in the industry. But when it comes to software, they're complete rookies. They don't even know what's out there. They don't know what's best. So they're coming to me for expertise and I thought that was very interesting and that's just a really good leverage point where if you understand that your expertise is going to be sought out for it, it really gives you some really solid confidence to approach business in a seamless manner.
(16:11): This is another great point that you make in your book is that you, you got to put yourself in a frame of mind where you are on like equal playing field with like what feels like big shots and there's one time where I had this like this potential like working opportunity with this person that I follow online who does like ad agency stuff for professional athletes. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like I would like, I hide myself up. It was like the coolest thing ever. And then like I miss the time, like the times got screwed up and I was freaking out and I was like so sad. I was devastated and I was super apologetic and it turned out like he actually got the times mixed up and I was like, no big deal. And I was just like, wow. Like if I could just keep my energy like calm and collected like he is, he's like a normal person too. The more that I can put myself in that frame of mind, like it creates a better connection and a better opportunity for you to talk about your offer. And so you make, you definitely talk about this in your book about like you have to see like, I don't know, can you elaborate on this point? Do you know where I'm going?
(17:09): Yeah, yeah. You know, in business we call it equal business stature. Just because someone has the money bag that you know for your next payday or just because they have a higher title than you or maybe even on paper, they have more like status than you or higher value than you. That doesn't take anything away from you. It doesn't mean that you're any less and if you're overly focused on status, it tends to rub you the wrong way. It tends to really screw you up actually. It makes you anxious. You start to overthink things, all of which can kill a deal or an opportunity. Even though that person is probably just as cool and as chill and as normal and as normal as you are because you're focused on their, on their hierarchy or their status comparative to yours, you'll end up acting in a very nervous manner and complete missing the details.
(18:01): If you come into an interaction knowing like, Hey, this person, we're equal business stature, I have something to offer and they have something to offer. If you're able to come into a conversation with that frame of mind, you're going to be a lot more enabled to just be calm and easygoing, which is going to result in just better conversations, better relationships, just it's going to have an easy going vibe. It's going to add an easygoing vibe to your personality where they feel like they can let their guard down too and trust you. There's a lot of people that are doing business development or sales or even dating that are coming in or, and to interactions very like sales oriented and outcome oriented, or they're like, I just want to close this deal, just want to get this done. I want this opportunity that overeagerness actually destroys their ability to just be an easygoing person that their client can just relax with. So, you know, a lot of sales I believe aren't strongly even about tactics. It's about just coming from an easygoing frame of mind that's going to enable you to just be on the same page with the person as opposed to over-reactive and over anxious.
(19:08): Yeah. And this is one thing that my people, the people listening really get tripped up in this. They're, they're perpetually just obsessed with saying the right thing. And it's like if your brain is hyperactive, if you're feeling stressed out and you're anxious about it, your brain will literally shut off. So like the best thing you can do is to just put yourself in a calm state of mind where you don't say something stupid. Right,
(19:31): Exactly. It's crazy. I'm constantly kind of confused, not confused by it, but just fascinated by it. You learn so many techniques, there's so many techniques out there and closing techniques and question asking, you know, theories and sales methodologies. But if you don't come from the right frame of mind, you still actually end up screwing it up. And like we say, you're overly anxious. And I think coming from the right frame of mind and not worrying about what you're going to say. Well first of all, no matter what you say, like a less year, like blatantly offensive or blatantly socially unintelligent, nothing's gonna go wrong. Typically people are pretty forgiving. I found that if you generally have a good intention, and actually this is something I, you know I wanted to talk about based on the email that you sent me, but generally if you come from the right intention, like the right heart, you know, you're not a bad person.
(20:26): You're a good person, you have good intentions, you're going to get away with a lot. You're going to be forgiven a lot. You're going to be given a lot of wiggle room. You're going to have a lot of flexibility to kind of play with the interaction. You don't have to worry about killing an opportunity just because you're saying a couple, maybe you explained something wrong or maybe you've said it in a way that didn't make sense. Generally people are going be pretty unforgiving and they'll see past that. If you're a good person, they can read the vibe, they can be, they can see that, Oh this person is actually pretty chill. I don't need to worry about anything. You know, I trust them, they seem trustworthy and that's going to give you the opportunity to work with them. So as long as you come from the right intention, you're not an evil person trying to like steal money or break hearts or whatever. You're generally going to be given a lot of wiggle room in your opportunities.
(21:17): Do you think that when you need a client and you're building these connections with people, do you think that it's tricking them? Like, do you think that it's like you could be like faking those connections, leaving if they're real like are their pet my people are perpetually afraid of tricking potential clients? Like is that possible? If you come from this place of good intention,
(21:37): I don't think it's possible. I think that if you're coming from a good place, you're going to start to transition from a seller centric state of mind to more of like a customer centric state of mind where you're slowly going to transition into or less of. I'm trying to close this deal and get money out of this person into, I'm trying to help this person. I'm trying to offer them what I believe is a good solution for them and by the way, I'm going to get paid for it. I think that if you're learning this stuff, if you're learning how to be a better business person or a better salesperson, if you're learning techniques and tactics and mindsets, you're naturally going to be a little bit more cautious and aware of what you're doing, but that doesn't mean that you're tricking anyone.
(22:23): I think for some people this business stuff and sales and relationship building comes very naturally and as a result they don't have to analyze what works and what doesn't. They're almost not even aware of it, but for people like us that we had to learn these skills that maybe we grew up introverted or very shy and we have to learn how to sell for us. Of course naturally we're going to be hyper aware of what works and what doesn't and it might feel that sometimes we might be kind of tricking or manipulating them into certain actions, but I think that you have to make that differentiation. Am I just being hyper aware of what works and what doesn't or am I actually trying to trick someone? Again, it's going to come back to where you're coming from. I highly encourage people to start to steer away from being seller centric and be more customer service oriented and recognize that you can still close deals even if you're not overly focused on closing deals.
(23:18): Yes, yes. I want to jump in here and emphasize this point because even if you don't hard sell and be like, Oh, awkwardly, like push somebody, like buy my stuff right now today. The sheer fact that you're talking to somebody that you like and they like you will naturally lead to more sales. Even if there's not a hard sell at the end.
(23:36): Exactly. It's just naturally going to be there, right? It's going to naturally lead to that where they ask you, so what now? And that's where you offer, well, here's what I think is best. You know, I could certainly offer you this prize, but whatever your spiel is, right, it can naturally lead there. I think in a way a lot of movies have kind of made it look like sales is all about this majestic close at the end where you like to manipulated the customer to giving you like this big amount of money. It really doesn't play out like that in real life. And some of the top performers that I know are incredibly incredible, incredibly nice people. And I'm like, wait a second, you're not even, you don't even care about closing. You're just like, they just have these amazing relationships with their customers and they're not really even interested in selling. They know that the selling is a byproduct of what they're doing, which is more of just like trying to help. They're just trying to help out.
(24:38): Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, so based on like your relationship experience and coaching, like what do you think it takes to have a good relationship? Like what are some key things that we need to incorporate in a good relationship?
(24:49): Yeah. So with relationships as it relates to like business would you say? Or just relationships in general? Relationships in general. I think first part is, you know, there's a couple of things, right? If we're going to be building some really high caliber relationships with solid people that we can learn from and who have something in common with us, you definitely have to come from that equal status idea that we were mentioning earlier. Right? Where where you see the value in others, but you also see the value in yourself and what you have to bring to the table. I think that's step one, right? That way you can kind of go about the world developing solid relationships with solid people. I think that's one part of it. I think the other part of it is certainly knowing your audience and the type of people that you're going to be attracted that you want to attract and why.
(25:36): Right? That's sort of why we, you know, you and I were talking about this earlier, you have to know yourself and what kind of person you are so that you can kind of put out feelers and disqualify those who don't align with you and those that kind of do, you can bring them in more, right? So knowing who you are and what you're about is going to be super crucial. You can't appeal to everyone in the market. It's sorta like rappers and comedians, right? A comedian has a specific type of audience. His jokes don't resonate with everyone and he knows that he doesn't try to make jokes for everyone. He has his audience and he goes for that audience. It's similar with sales and relationships. Know what you're about and know your audience and then tailor it to that audience stronger than ever before. And your super self.
(26:23): Exactly. Shout out Nate cause he's the one that taught me that but, but we, we we agree on it. And then the other aspect is you gotta come from that good heart, that good intention, the stuff, relationships and selling and closing. It could all come kind of unnaturally and it's going to, you're naturally going to be making some mistakes and errors along the way. But if you're coming from a good heart and good intention, you will have many opportunities to kind of redeem yourself and people will be drawn to connecting with you. I think if we have those three fundamentals right there year and a really solid place to develop powerful relationships, but also to attract as well, which is just as important.
(27:10): Why is all this important to you? Like what's sort of your purpose?
(27:14): That is such a good question. I think about this often. For me, it's, it's an equalizer. I think that you can come from any background or culture and if you learn some, a solid set of communication skills and people skills, you can kind of get ahead. And that's, even if you don't come from a place of money or place of equal opportunity or maybe you came from an underprivileged background or maybe you're just really shy or introverted. And if you can learn a set of mindsets and people skills, it puts you in the same playing field as everyone else. And eventually you can even use it as leverage to get ahead, right? Whether it's a negotiation at work or a salary increase or a job interview, a dating opportunity, a business opportunity, the set of skills that we're talking about grant you a lot of confidence and that's confidence that's going to enable you to take advantage of opportunities as opposed to abolishing them or you know, completely shooting yourself in the foot. So I think that's why I'm so passionate about it. It's an equalizer. It's really, it can give anyone the opportunity to get ahead. And I don't know of a lot of other weapons that can do that. A lot of other skills that can do that.
(28:35): Absolutely. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. That's really, that's awesome. I totally agree. I think there's something to be said about somebody who can move among classes and amongst other people from all different backgrounds can really give you that leg up.
(28:49): Exactly. That initially came up for me. I was at a museum for Casanova. They had a Casanova showcase and Casanova apparently notorious player or whatever. Right back in France. They had like a little blurb on the wall about him. I didn't even know this. Right. I thought I just associated Casanova with being like a ladies man, but he I guess came from a background that was very underprivileged, came from like a lower class back when they were actually classes and hierarchy in society and he was able to move through it very eloquently purely through social skills and and finessing certain situations. I'm sure there was manipulation in his game plan. It didn't. He didn't seem like the most ethical person, but still the idea that you could kind of move through the world and grant yourself better opportunities because you learn a certain set of people's skills and communication skills. I thought that was super intriguing.
(29:46): That is awesome. Thank you for sharing that. So before we end, I want to just give you a chance to tell us what's going on in your life and where we can find you and buy things from you.
(29:57): Yes, give me your money. No, I'm kidding. I'm always down to have a conversation with anyone. I'm reachable via email or Twitter. You can find me at snap social guru on Twitter or on my website, snap social guru.com today I'm publishing a podcast. I'm typically not writing as much as I used to, but I still love to spread my ideas and just share concepts that I'm learning along the way as they regard people's skills and relationships. My focus is universally to attract those with skills. So a lot of the behaviors and mindsets that I chat about, although they typically have an audience which is marketed towards men or in the dating market, they're actually very applicable to a lot of different scenarios. So if you're interested in that, definitely go find Millsaps social guru. Take a look at my books I have for free and paid books, and if you don't like that, come in and talk to me one on one. I'm always happy to have a conversation and help you out any way I can. Awesome.
(30:52): All right, that's all we have for you today. If you liked this episode, go ahead and check out my website. Hey, Hey Shauna may.com where there is a newsletter and coaching opportunities and a variety of sales tools to help you book out your services. After that, you can go directly to my Instagram profile and check out the consensual sales podcast photograph and ask me any questions or thoughts you have about today's episode and I'll answer them directly.
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