Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, content marketing, direct response marketing, and business development, with some of the leading experts in the industry.
Kevin: All right, welcome to another episode of the Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie, and my voice might be echoey. I'm at home in lockdown, isolation, quarantine, but I wanted to bring some podcasts to you, especially ones that are timely.
In this one, I have Johann San Cristobal on here of Avanmed, and him and Pablo. You've heard Pablo on my show before. They just do amazing work around social media, email marketing, Google Ads, campaigns, landing pages, really do your marketing for you. They are, from nuts to soup, the marketing behind my practice. I'll create a lot of the content from there. They handle the distribution. [01:01.9]
I talk a lot about it. Content marketing is huge and you've got to be creating really good content that's got great messaging, but your distribution or the vehicle of your content has to be ideal to get the results that you want and the proper ROI, and Avanmed is a company that helps do that for you.
So, today we dive into how things are changing in the COVID-19 timeframe right now, because they are changing when you're marketing, and he just brings a lot of great information and four key aspects of what we're going to dive into today. And so, we get really clear on what we need to be doing and I think you'll enjoy this episode.
Without further ado, here's my episode diving into COVID-19 marketing and what it looks like.
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All right, welcome to the show, Johann. I really appreciate your time today. Before we dive into marketing and especially how it pertains to the unique time period we're in as we're recording this—it's a mid-April and it's the kind of the middle of the COVID-19 stuff—so we're going to dive into what your marketing should look like in these times. Before we do that, tell us a little bit about yourself. [02:13.2]
Johann: Excellent. Thanks, Kevin. I have over 15 years’ experience in the medical healthcare sector, working a lot with medical devices and both in the United States, Canada and Latin America, so kind of broad experience there. And we've, from my experience, really helped get products or medical devices into the hands of doctors.
And very recently, three years ago, we created Avanmed, and the reason for that was because we saw a gap from companies being able to give products to doctors, but we saw a gap that there were doctors who weren’t as expansive into marketing their services into patients, which is the final consumer. So, we knew that that gap was there and that's why we created Avanmed. We've been doing this for three years, helping practices acquire new patients. [03:15.4]
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. And we've had Pablo on the show before. I know you guys have partnered together on this.
Johann: Right.
Kevin: I've known Pablo for years as a friend, a patient, and obviously helping out with the marketing of my private practices, and you guys have been very helpful for that, running our campaigns and and doing all that. So, I've seen it firsthand and it's been nice to work together with you because you guys definitely bring a ton of knowledge when it comes to marketing, online marketing, email marketing, Facebook ads, Google Ads, all that stuff, and then really try to work together on a lot of the chiropractic strategy.
I know you've worked with other types of doctors and then it's been fun to work hand in hand on some of the nuances of the chiropractic profession. I know over the last couple of years you've been working with some of my chiropractors I work with or that are part of the audience. [04:11.2]
And so, you've gotten to see how it works with a chiropractic professional all over the country, different markets, different aspects, small town, big town. Obviously, you, myself, Pablo, we're all here in South Florida, so it's a little bit of a bigger metropolitan area, but I'm sure you've gleaned a lot from the different types of chiropractic practices and locations.
Johann: Yeah, that's correct, Kevin. Yeah, so we see only healthcare, of course, so all of our practices are in health care and we specialize just in healthcare. And I would say, I mean, we see from general surgeons to bariatric surgeons to OB/GYN, so we have a whole bag, but about 30% of our entire portfolio is chiropractors. [05:00.1]
So, we have a really good deep understanding of what you guys need and what you're seeing, the obstacles that are coming up, particularly right now, and, of course, that varies by different states. States like New York are definitely a lot more restricted right now, and let's say somebody in Alabama or something.
Kevin: Yeah, and that's a good point. Obviously we're going to dive into this today, and it's been interesting because I've got quite a few chiropractors that I do one-on-one coaching and consulting with, and I get on the phone with one that's in New Jersey and it's closed down. My practice is closed down in South Florida because we're a hotbed. And then I get on the phone with someone else in a different area and they're like, Yeah, we're down like 20%, so they're functioning at a pretty high level.
So, everybody's different, so the information that we provide today that, obviously if you're closed down, it's hard to try to do the same thing that someone that’s fully opened, but there are some things will still be the same and that's one thing. [06:02.6]
And I know we got on the phone when this all went down. I said, “Okay, what do we need to do for our marketing?” and you sent me this great pretty detailed email and I was like, This needs to be a podcast episode. So, let's dive into it, okay?
I want to start with … we'll probably define some stuff as well and then we'll dive into it, but let's talk about conversion campaigns. Can you let us know what that is for our audience listening? And then we'll dive into what we need to do with our conversion campaigns
Johann: Okay. Yes, so how we basically structure our marketing campaigns is really into three different types of campaigns and we have what's conversion campaigns. A conversion campaign is something that is in the lower part of the funnel. It's high-intense. If somebody that's out there searching “chiropractor near me,” they already know they want to see a chiropractor and they're already looking for one, someone locally, or “back pain,” “back pain sciatica relief doctor near me.” That's a very high-intense conversion campaign. That's what we refer to as a conversion campaign. [07:15.8]
I would tell you that mainly this type of campaign offers a lot on the search site, so everything that is on Google Search, Bing, platforms like that, people who are kind of searching. And it depends a lot also on the keyword term because sometimes you could start your search by just talking about home remedies for back pain that's more on the awareness side. You're starting to get yourself educated. So, what we're looking for is something that is more on the conversion side and this happens a lot on the search and on specific keywords that they're looking for.
Kevin: Yeah, that makes sense. So, you're really trying to get them to call the office, schedule online and obviously become a patient, and that's a big part of campaigns. Typically, when you're working with someone, what would you recommend as far as a percentage of ad spend or whatever into conversion campaigns? I know that could be a hard answer, but typically. [08:13.9]
Johann: Are we talking about specifically right now or in general?
Kevin: In general. Not right now because of the COVID, but in general. And then we'll go into what we need to change.
Johann: Okay. In general, we recommend somewhere around the 40:60, so 40% more into the conversion, 60% more into that awareness phase.
Kevin: Perfect. Okay. And so, let's dive into the awareness. I'm going to circle back to the conversion change now, but explain to our audience what are the awareness campaigns? What does that mean?
Johann: Okay, so awareness campaigns are when we've identified a patient that might want our service, but they're not a hundred percent convinced. For example, the example that I gave before. If somebody searches exercises for or to improve back pain or to improve sciatica pain, this is somebody who doesn't want to come into the clinic right now. If you can see from the search, it's somebody that definitely has back pain, so it's our target, but he's not ready to come in. [09:14.5]
And what we do here is we categorize this person as an awareness target. What we do here is we still run campaigns for them, even if we bring them in from a search when they do a search about remedy for back pain, home remedy for back pain or exercise for back pain, we'll bring them into our landing page, which is more educational. Yeah, it's more educational. Then we'll go ahead and maybe create retargeting ads based on their criteria. They've visited our landing page at one moment, so we’ll then create campaigns on the retargeting side.
It will be more educational. We'll get in those videos. I know you have some great videos and a lot of the chiropractors that we work with also have some great videos. More on that educational side. This is what you should do if you have back pain. [10:03.3]
And what we're doing there is we're educating the patient and we're bringing them from an awareness, now understanding, Oh, these are some of the things that I should do, and also knowing that, of course, your local chiropractor because they see your ad and they're like, Okay, they also help us do this and if we want more information or a specific treatment, we should go in and see them. So, this is more on the awareness side, yeah.
Kevin: Okay, great.
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Kevin: So, now given the COVID-19 issue that we're having and it's just a time where either you're not open or people are kind of quarantining themselves, so we're probably going to decrease our conversion campaigns, and that's why you kind of mentioned the email. By how much are you decreasing the conversion campaigns? [12:08.6]
Johann: Okay, and this also depends a little bit if you're open or if you're closed, but in general, we're telling our clients that they should decrease their budget overall for conversion.
If you're closed, we recommend decreasing it by up to 80% and leave 20% of the budget there, and this is because we don't want to fully shut down our campaign. We have throughout the month created some sort of optimization, some share ranking, and if we completely shut it up, it's going to start from zero. So, once we turn them back on, we're going to have about that month learning space for the campaigns to readjust, optimize and increase our ad ranking share.
Kevin: That makes sense.
Johann: We don’t want to completely bring it to zero, yeah.
Kevin: Yeah, it makes sense. And so, I guess onto good news. What I'm reading is that your Facebook ads and things like that are actually cheaper right now anyway, right? [13:09.3]
Johann: That is correct, and Facebook, social media goes more on the awareness side. So, to finish on the conversion, I think our recommendation is you need to lower the budget and the conversion side.
If you're closed, maybe you should lower it even further up to 80%. Keep the campaigns running. Keep them at a minimum budget, so that they're still running.
If you're open, we recommend you to focus on the campaigns. Don't decrease it as much because I'm sure you're open, but you're still operating not at full capacity, so you can't see as many patients as you can just from a protocol. You want to have more time to clean your practice between patients. You don't want to have that many patients in your seating room. So, just in general, you won't be able to operate at the same capacity as you were before, so we recommend that you still reduce your budget, but maybe in this case by 40%. [14:09.9]
Kevin: Okay, perfect.
Johann: And if you are running those conversion campaigns, we recommend that you go ahead and you change your ads a little bit, and make sure that, for example, on your under headline of your ad, you put “We're open” and tell your local audience from the front that “We are open.”
Kevin: And I think that's a great thing that you just mentioned. That's what I've been telling some chiropractors. In the stuff that you're running or whatever it is, keep them updated on your status as a clinic. They need to know you're doing it tastefully, but they need to know. If you're open, great. If not, they should know that as well. And try to make them aware of your status as a practice, so they know they have an option or not.
Johann: That's correct, because a lot of the practices are closed, and if you're able to be open, it is an opportunity to gain share, so your ads should say that from the beginning. [15:05.8]
Kevin: Absolutely.
Johann: Some other things, Kevin, that we've been telling the practices that are open is reach out to your referral partners. Make sure. Your referral partners are also limited to who they can refer to because more practices have closed, so this is a good time to reach out to them and also let them know, Hey, we're open.
And maybe those other referral partners that weren't sending referrals your way, it's a good time to also reach out and tell them, Hey, look, during this time we're still open, so if you have any patients that need any help, we're more than happy to help.
Kevin: Yeah, that's a great way. I've been texting some. We were open for probably three weeks where it was pretty dicey and people were closing, and I just was reaching out to somebody, MDs, attorneys, some of the gym owners, things like that, letting them know that we were still open and things of that nature. And then, I've had some of them reach out to me. I've had some of the medical doctors reach out and say they are still open. [16:06.0]
So, have that communication, whether it's text, email or phone call, whatever that relationship is with you. I wouldn't go by their office at this point.
Johann: Correct.
Kevin: But, yeah, just touch base and let them know. So, it's a great thing to do to touch base and everybody is trying to sort this out themselves, so it's good. Perfect.
All right, let's go into the awareness campaigns now. It's been interesting. I've seen a lot of chiropractors who I've been trying to preach to for years about having content marketing and building that audience, just now getting into shooting video or posting because they realize how important it is. And then it's like I wish they would have started earlier, but that's neither here nor there.
So, if you've been running awareness campaigns, like you mentioned, social media is a very good awareness platform anyway. But if you've been doing awareness campaigns, what are you doing now that's different than before COVID-19? [17:05.6]
Johann: Okay, so what we've seen in awareness campaigns through our social media, which mainly include platforms such as Facebook and Instagram, we've seen a tremendous amount of engagement. And, of course, a lot of our patients are not working. They're staying at home and they are spending a lot of time on the screen, going through their Facebook feeds or going through their Instagram and their stories.
So, we've seen tremendous engagement, and on average what we've seen across all of our practices, it's about a 200% increase in engagement. This is a great opportunity for us to educate our patients. Everyone that we've had on that top of the funnel or in that awareness stage, this is the perfect time to go ahead and talk a little bit more about your services. Give some value-added information. [18:00.0]
Talk about some of the things that they could do at home in this time, some exercises that they can do or the meditation programs they can work on, and this helps instill that trust within, of course, the doctor, the practice and the patient, and really see that there is a connection there. And, hopefully, everything, all of this will settle and you'll have them back to your practice when this is done.
What we've seen, too, is there's been a lot of interaction, too, within the post and even some of the ads. There are a lot of patients that are asking questions, and this is an important time to engage with them and really answer, respond to them, and if you can set up appointments. This is a critical time to set up appointments for the future, so tell them, Hey, these are some of the things that you can do right now, but we'd be happy to see you on this day in the near future in May, and set up those appointments. [19:01.3]
Kevin: Yeah, and I think that’s one of the keys, bringing them information. It's going to be useful right now, like you said, maybe some home ergonomics, maybe activities of daily living training stuff, fix your own back, fix your own neck.
I see a lot of people in my neighborhood running now, so I know in certain areas they’re not wanting people to run. I think it's in the dense cities. But in my neighborhood more people are running, so maybe you do a pre-run warmup type of deal, stuff like that that they can use.
And there's going to be other types of topics that are just not going to be as useful. So, for me, it was kind of funny, Pablo came and shot videos of me and a personal trainer who's also certified in TPI golf and we shot all these golf injury videos, and it was early March. And I just realized, okay, by mid-March that we shouldn't really be posting those because my audience, I do have a fair amount of golfers, but they've closed all the golf courses down here, you know? And so, not only people can't golf down here, but golf is kind of the last thing that a lot of these people are thinking about right now, so I'm not going to run a big campaign around golf. [20:10.8]
Johann: Correct. That makes sense.
Kevin: I think that's something to consider. I want you to touch base on here because this is something you broke down in the email. Will you discuss the 1% lookalike target audiences for our group here that's listening?
Johann: Yes, most definitely. On the awareness campaign, what we are recommending is run those awareness campaigns, but run, do a retargeting. Use your audiences for retargeting because it's somebody that's already engaged at some point with you. That could be through your website. That could be through some posts in Instagram or Facebook, and anyone who maybe engage with you even through an email. What you need to do is create a campaign around using a retargeting audience.
And then my second advice here is let's get audiences that are very similar to these website visitors to your patients that have been engaging with you, so run a lookalike audience of 1%. I think this is as far as you want to go. [21:13.6]
So, create a retargeting remarketing of your current audience and then maybe I do a look alike of a 1%. This is what we've seen most effective.
Kevin: Yeah, and I want to break that down a little bit and do it in a way where a lot of my audience has heard me talk about the before, during and after units of marketing, or the during unit would be to measure your patient experience; the after unit is inactive patients.
And so, if you did something like took your email list and you made an audience out of it, so for the chiropractors out there, you can actually funnel your email list into Facebook and it's directly connected. If you have a MailChimp account, it's directly connected to Facebook, and if you have 1,000 people on your email list and 700 of them have that particular email address affiliated with their Facebook profile, they'll go into an audience. You could run an awareness campaign to your patient base, which is great. Right? [22:07.5]
Johann: That's a hundred percent correct.
Kevin: Yeah, and that's a during unit strategy or an after unit strategy in this particular case right now. These are people that already know, like and trust you, and you're just staying aware with them. But you could also do the same thing. Like you said, you could do it from your website, like the last 180 days, anybody that's visited your website. As long as you’ve got that Facebook pixel on there, that will become an audience, right?
Johann: That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. And we do recommend using, of course, from your pixel, you need to make sure that you're properly set up first, and from the pixel you can go ahead and run retargeting audiences, based on if they've engaged with your Facebook page, basically if they've engaged with any type of ad, posts that would be also in social media.
And, of course, the other components that you mentioned here, Kevin, which is key is you have a database of patients, and you can load this database of patients into this platform and it will automatically start also marketing them through your campaigns. [23:13.3]
So, somebody who, at some point, filled out a contact form and you have them in your database, now it's also receiving a Facebook ad, and in this case hopefully is more of an informative ad, educating them a little bit more about your practice, yeah.
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Kevin: Let me take a break from the podcast for a minute and I want to discuss my clinic, Health-Fit Chiropractic & Sports Recovery, Boca Raton, Miami, Florida. We’ve got two offices. And we just redid our site.
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Perfect. Yeah, and so those would be great strategies for that during or after unit. And then, if you wanted to do a before unit or a new patient marketing strategy, or at least let's call it a new patient awareness campaign, you're saying do a 1% lookalike of those people. So, let's just take the email list that we mentioned before. It's not going to be those people on the email list, but it's going to be people that are really like those people on that email list, right?
Johann: That's a hundred percent correct. For a temple, if in that email, let's say that patient list email, and I'm sure you have a divided into different types of sections, but let's say you have a runner’s email and you have about, I don't know, 1,000 runners in this list. You go ahead and when you do that 1% lookalike, Facebook through its algorithm is going to go in and see it's 1,000 patients that you have on the list and it's going to find similar patients just like this. [25:14.2]
For example, I'm sure they're part of specific run clubs. They like to follow specific brands. They're into Nike Run, things like that. So, you’ll go ahead and find very similar new patients, new targets that you can go ahead and advertise to them. And it's also very effective.
I usually recommend for this 1%, not 2%, because once you get into 2%, the engagement rate starts to die off. If you have enough budget, if you have a good budget and that's not a problem, then, yes, go with 2%. But, of course, if your budget is limited, I would say 1%, and I know particularly right now everyone is taking care more of their budgets. I would say go with 1% maximum.
Kevin: Okay. Yeah, and that just means this can be a narrow, defined lookalike, so I think you could do up to 10%, which is going to be a lot more broad and general. [26:09.0]
Johann: Broad.
Kevin: But obviously if you were, I don't know, Coca-Cola, you could probably do 10%.
Johann: Yeah, you could probably spend that.
Kevin: All right, cool. So, I want people to understand that right now is not only a time to create very good content that is useful given the circumstances, but you need to make sure that your strategy around distributing this and your ad spend is effective. Otherwise, it might fall on deaf ears. So, you've got to combine the good content with the good messaging, with these targeting details and you'll really do well, and that's where you guys just do so much valuable work for my practice, making sure that that stuff is taken care of.
Alright, so I want to go to the next part, which is you had a nice little breakdown on email campaigns. Can you dive into that a little bit for us? [27:00.0]
Johann: Okay. That’s the other thing that we've seen. We recommend that you definitely increase your email communication. We've seen a 17% increase in any email open rate. And, also, we've seen a shift to desktop. Most of the open emails that we usually see are on mobile, but I guess people are spending more time at home and they have a desktop. So, we're seeing more open rates and for some reason we tend to shift into desktop.
Kevin: Interesting.
Johann: So, we definitely see an opportunity here to increase the frequency of the campaigns of sending emails. And, look, this is something that is free for us. If we've got a good database and we're already planning whether it's in MailChimp or other platforms, you're sending that email. It's just good content. It doesn't cost us much and right now they're getting really good open rates, so we're telling all of our customers to try to increase this. [28:05.0]
Kevin: Yeah, that's great. What I've done personally for my practice is we've always been once a week. We've gone to two, two times a week. Yeah, I try to provide them a lot of content. And then we've had a couple of things where it's more announcements, obviously when we did an announcement about how we were making our work environment safe. Then we had an announcement when we did close. But then, other than that, it's been really valuable content that we've been putting out there.
And then, one of the things that we did do was we repurposed a virtual summit we did for runners and triathletes. It was something we did two years ago and I was able to just clone it, so we did that. I was posting that in the Boca Raton Triathlete Group that I'm a part of the Fleet Feet group that I'm a part of. We’ve got the other people that were experts in that to share it. I did email that out. So, yeah, we just were making sure we were getting our email campaigns up, trying to educate them, but also keep them posted on the happenings of the practice and kind of the world right now. [29:07.3]
Johann: Yeah, excellent, and I think the content that you're giving them is perfect, what we need to do right now. But what we're trying to tell also to our clients is do more content-driven messages, share things like tips, guides, videos, something that the patient finds value in, how to keep a healthier body, healthier mind, especially during this time, and really avoid a lot of that more promotional type of message.
Kevin: That makes sense. Cool. All right, let's go to the last one. Let's go social posting. What are you seeing here?
Johann: This is the same as email. We’ve seen an increase in engagement. We've seen across all of our practices about a 45% increase in post engagements. We've seen more shares, more likes. So, what we're also recommending is let's post a little bit more frequently. We're getting good numbers here. This is something that is also free to us, of course, if we have the content already built. [30:11.6]
So, we recommend, if you were posting two times, let's go to three times. And then once you see which post is giving better results or the most engagement, let's spend $5 and let's do a boost for an additional week or so.
Kevin: That makes sense. I get this question a lot because what I tend to do is boost the post a little bit, see if it gets some traction, and if I feel like it's been a great post, I might convert that to a Facebook ad. Do you recommend that strategy right now?
Johann: Yes, most definitely. When you boost it, you're going to go ahead and just expand. You're limited in how you can expand it, but definitely you're going to expand. You're going to get more audience. And, of course, since you already know it’s engaging, hopefully it'll bring better results. So, we definitely recommend a boost. [31:00.6]
If you show that it's getting a tremendous result, you can easily change that into an ad where you have the ability to be even more specific. You can send it to a specific audience. Like we said, maybe we could create a 1% retargeting. In this case we feel very comfortable, so maybe even say, okay, let's do a 2% retargeting for this particular boost. Therefore, you have more ability of what you can do with it when you make it into an ad.
Kevin: That's what I wanted to hear you say and I think sometimes the audience gets a little confused by what the difference of a Facebook post is and an ad. You're definitely going to get more capabilities with the Facebook ad, right?
Johann: A hundred percent, yes, and you're more in control of who you're going to deliver to, where, what audience. You could even say at that specific time, if you like specific interests, so you could channel it even further.
Kevin: Yeah. What I'd like to do when I do posts is sometimes I'll tend to put some money behind it on a boosted post, too, because I want to see how it does and then I'll turn it into an ad. [32:05.7]
But, also, you get a little bit more engagement on that post, and so if people are going to your Facebook business page, it doesn't look like a ghost town where it's like, okay, you're posting but nobody's engaging. Right?
Johann: That's correct. It's always nice to see. There are comments, shares on that particular, yes. And I don't recommend doing it on all the posts. I don't know, if you're doing two a week, three a week, go ahead and use the one that is the most engaging, the one that's showing the best results, and invest in that one.
Kevin: Yeah, exactly. You don't need to turn every one of your posts into a Facebook ad. We just don't have the margin and budgets to do that. If you had a $25,000-a-month marketing budget, you could probably do something like that.
Johann: For sure.
Kevin: So, we've got to be smart with it. Yeah, pick the one that's like I get some good feedback on that. Sometimes you'll even notice you'll post and you don't boost it at all, and there's still a little bit more engagement than others, and so that's a pretty good indicator as well. [33:03.0]
Johann: That's correct.
Kevin: Perfect. Yeah, that's really good information. I know we wanted to break down those four things just to review. That was, we are going to decrease our conversion campaigns. We're going to increase our awareness campaigns. We're going to increase our email campaign and we're going to increase our social posting.
Is there anything else that you can recommend over the next couple of minutes here for our audience to take into consideration when it comes to the marketing of their practice right now?
Johann: Yes. What we just went over was mainly around the marketing strategy, ad spend strategy. Some other things that we're recommending as best practices are, for some practices that are able to do it, we're telling them to go ahead and get maybe telemedicine services. This is something that has increased. And I know it's something more difficult sometimes for something like in the chiropractic field, but it's sometimes a good way also to do follow-ups or to pre-screen new patients, so that's something that we recommend. [34:08.8]
Also, information is key, so what we always say is maintain that your patients are informed, so make sure that in your website you talk about your hours, some of the things, some of the procedures that you're doing to help maintain your practices as hygienically and clean as possible for when they are visiting.
Also, update your Google business accounts. Update them on your website. Update on Google Business. Update your Facebook account about your hours of operation.
Kevin: Yeah, it makes sense. Website, Google My business, Facebook, yeah, you definitely want to update that, keep that stuff fresh. Things are changing every day right now, and so make sure you're doing that and just keep informing your patient base. It's going to come back. When things reopen, it's going to come back, and if you're doing the things right now to be very valuable and useful, it will be an easier climb back to the top of the mountain. [35:09.5]
Johann: That's the most important, Kevin, yeah, and keep that ongoing communication with your patients. This is still, I find, an opportunity for us to show to our patients that we're more than just a regular practice and they can trust us, and we add a lot more value. So, this is a perfect time to maintain that communication.
Kevin: Perfect. If our audience wants to reach out to you, how can they get hold of you?
Johann: They could visit our website, Avanmed.com. They could also write an email, so Johann@Avanmed.com, J-O-H-A-N-N. And there's also a toll free number on our website that they can reach us through.
Kevin: Perfect. I'll make sure that's in the show notes and that's A-V-A-N-M-E-D, Avanmen. Yeah, check their stuff out. They're doing great work. I always appreciate your help, not only in my private practice, but also with my audience in making sure that we're up to speed on everything. [36:08.2]
Johann: Excellent. Thanks. Likewise, Kevin. It's always a pleasure.
Kevin: Definitely. Have a great one.
Johann: You too. Take care. Have a good one.
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