No don't go in there, Daddy's working.
You are listening to the show for dadpreneurs who want to have it all. Each week, you'll see how you can have harmony in the four pillars of purpose - family, faith, fitness and finances.
Jonathan: Welcome back to another edition of Daddy's Working podcast. I'm stoked that you're here and I don’t know what it is... I do know what it is. The holiday spirit is affecting me. One of my lifetime goals is to be more generous and right now, it must be the Christmas season or it must be that I'm thinking about my legacy but I couldn’t possibly be more generous than what I'm doing today, giving you an inside look at training we did for our copywriters, and so maybe you guys know this, maybe you don’t but over at the Podcast Factory, we have a team of copywriters. [0:01:29.5]
We have got six or seven copywriters right now who work on our clients' shows and last year around this time, I became obsessed with this book and this idea. It consumed me and I decided that it was going to be one of my major goals for 2019. I don’t want to date this podcast, but one of my major goals for this year was to implement this. Now you may or may not have heard of the book. If you haven't, go pick up a copy. Excellent book. It's by Donald Miller and it's called Storybrand and inside he talks about the consumer and how they think and how most marketers are making people think too hard. [0:02:21.6]
See, we don’t want to think. As humans, we'd much rather just do things the way we have always done them. We'd much rather just be simply told what to do. I mean, this is deep psychology, but in the book he says that people don’t want to have to think too hard about what you do, and this was a major problem for us at the Podcast Factory. We had this website up. We had people visiting the website and all there are is a bunch of album covers, if you guys remember. If you guys have been around for a while, you remember the old homepage was nothing but showcasing all our clients, all their album covers and you could click through and listen to whatever you want and the reason we did that was, I thought I was doing something good by putting that page out there, up front, so when people came to the site, they could listen to a show. Duh. [0:03:15.3]
Pick a show you like. It's like a self-improvement juke box on that homepage. You could hit any number there and you're going to get something that's going to make you better. Yeah, I mean… that's a lofty goal, dude - isn't it? I mean…it sounds amazing, but nobody got it. It didn't really help us and when people went there looking for help with their podcast, they just couldn’t see how we could help them. They had to think too hard, and Donald Miller's book, Storybrand, really brought that home to me. People were trying to burn too many brain cells and they'd show up on calls that way. They were like, hey, I really… I like you - I like your emails. I like your podcasts, but I don’t know what you do. Anybody out there that does sales, on the phone especially, when it starts out like that, "I don’t know what you do," you're in trouble. [0:04:08.6]
Because now you've got an uphill battle. You want people to show up on calls educated and that is exactly why I became obsessed with the storybrand mythology, not only for us here at the Podcast Factory, for me, running the business, but more importantly, for our clients. Yeah, because if we could help our clients tell better stories, tell stories that people understand and want to take action on, then we're more valuable to our clients and we're more valuable to our listeners because we're helping them understand more quickly how we can help them. Say it's cascading effect. That's why I became obsessed with it, because I knew that getting our story brand right, not just on the website, but in our heads would be the I guess to use a Seth Godin term, would be the lynch pin, the lynch pin of everything else we're doing, whether it's ads or emails or cold outreach. [0:05:18.3]
We had to get our message right and that would make everything else that we did easier. It would amplify the effects if we got this right. So I spent almost six months, six months, working on the website and the website copy and what we wanted to say on our story brand homepage. If you guys haven’t been to the site in awhile, ThePodcastFactory.com, check it out. It's pretty simple. Have a podcast in 30 days without headaches or hassles. You don’t have to think about what we do. It's written there and the rest of the page is to just add more to the story, more detail and what you need to do next, but have a podcast in 30 days without headaches or hassles - that’s what we came up with. It's been working really great. [0:06:04.5]
In fact, in this quarter, now this is the last quarter of the year as I'm recording this, in this quarter, we have bumped up our business nearly 40% just under 40% because we have got clearer messaging and so, everything else - we have got a referral program - we have got ads and a book funnel going - everything else works better because we got the story brand, the message, what we do, how we can help you - we got that… I'm not going to say it's right, but it's pretty damn clear how we can help you. Anyways, why am I telling you about this and all this generosity talk from me? You're getting a super sized episode. It's the four… when this episode is released, it's just before Christmas and I'm feeling generous. I want to give you guys the gift of story brand. And so I told you I became obsessed with this story brand thing. It consumed me and it wasn’t just me. I affected the entire Podcast Factory team - all the writers, audio engineers, Cupcake, everybody. [0:07:11.2]
They had to be all in on story brand or this wasn’t going to work and one thing I did was I hired a guy, this is going to sound silly, but I paid $2000 for the course. I spent the entire month going through it, doing the assignments and pushing through even when I didn't want to because $2000 price tag helped me stay motivated to get my money back out of it. And even after all that, even after I did the work, even after I came up with my own copy, I decided, hey, I need to get a second opinion on this and actually I got a referral to a story brand certified dude to help me with my message and he did. And I like the guy a lot. I like how clear his flow was and I liked the analogies he used because it helped teach our team, The Podcast Factory copycats club - we have got, like I said, five, six, seven… I don’t know how many copywriters right now. [0:08:09.7]
It helped them get clear on how to use the story brand and this is actually one of the big focuses coming into this new year that we're extremely clear on is the idea that… alright, one last story … this is it. One last story and then I'm going to give you the training, but this idea, and this is the way we think about it. This is our philosophy. This is how we want our clients to show up to the world and the story brand, the reader, so whoever your client is, your prospect is, the person reading the copy, they are the hero. They're on a quest and they want to conquer their day. They are the hero of this story. So you can't come in there playing you're the hero too, beating your chest about how awesome you are. You can't do that because then that's two conflicting heroes. We need to be on different adventures. We're not sharing the limelight here. [0:09:08.3]
So you got to change the perspective of where you're coming from and where you're meeting your client and that's where I really love the idea that you are the guide, and that's the position that we have put all of our hosts in when we're thinking about the marketing strategy and the positioning of the power notes and how we're going to do all of that is the listener, or the reader, or the viewer, they're the hero. You are the Yoda. You have the roadmap. You're the guy with experience that can help the hero conquer their day and so you have to… you got the hero. You've got Yoda, the trusted advisor, you. And your method is the roadmap where you have the pitfalls. You have the road blocks. You have all the things that are going to get in the way. That's the roadmap and we position the show as the roadmap. [0:10:05.6]
So the hero comes in. They have a problem. You tell them, "Hey, I have experience solving this very problem. I've done it forever and this show or this product - whatever it is that you are selling - is the method, is a map, is the way to get this done." That's something we have become very clear on and we're doing for all our clients and it's the focus of our strategy, our content strategy here at The Podcast Factory and maybe I gave away too much, but without further ado, here is an inside look at the training we did for our copycats, the copywriting team at The Podcast Factory. This is the inside training, never before seen or heard, get it - story brand training. [0:10:53.0]
John: Alright. So I have six things that basically come right out of our story brand training. You could call them maybe story brand writing principles, but a lot of it will be the framework plus extra little things that Don would have said along the way that I've learned to incorporate every single time that I think about it. So here they are. Know your audience, which, I mean, writing 101. Create a brand script, but write the copy like chords in a song. Okay, I'll explain that in a moment. Thirdly, understand the difference between external and internal pain points. Okay? The fourth - always be the guide and I want to talk a little bit about how guides show empathy and authority and sometimes even show authority without even talking about yourself as the guide at all. Okay? So we'll get into that again. Understand how people read emails and where they read emails and sixth, simple headlines capture attention. So kind of understanding how newspapers are written is a good principle for helping you as a writer. So let's go through all those six with you guys and then please pipe up at any point because we can make this as conversational as possible. So, Jonathan, if you have a point that you want to add to, feel free. We're just here to have a conversation that adds maximum value. [0:11:59.4]
So, the first thing is knowing your audience and that really goes into what a lot about story brand which is who is this for? Right? Who do I want reading this? So if you're writing to chiropractors, then you think, what is a chiropractor struggling with? What does a chiropractor want? Who does a chiropractor want to become? And really just walking a bit in their shoes. One thing that I like to do is just spend about a moment being … about a moment… about maybe a few moments, maybe five moments, five minutes … it's worth it, to literally just sit there and pretend you're a chiropractor. So you're actually going to spend time in their shoes, kind of thinking what they're thinking - what are they struggling with - what would it be like if you had a practice that you were trying to grow and you needed patients, so you are a doctor, but you are also a marketer and how do you wear those two hats of being, you know, someone who is just supposed to be a professional and yet, you're trying to get clients in the door, and what happens if they're not? How did it make you feel? And so you, as a guide, really have to have your heart broken a little bit and the best way to do it is just to think through … I mean, we're moving, we're all moving so fast. I understand that a writing project really feels like another thing to do on a seemingly endless to-do list, and yet, you get much better quality of your writing and it will connect so much better if you just spend a little bit of time thinking about that person. [0:13:15.2]
Maybe it's … you might want to call it meditation. You might want to call it just reflection, but really get, the more you get to know them, it's your target, your niche or whoever you want to be reading this piece of literature - you want to really just think about them for a little bit. It could save you hours to spend five minutes just thinking about them.
Jonathan: Give me some tips here because this is an area where I struggle is getting… because I have no feelings. I have two feelings - angry and angrier; those are my two feelings. But what … like I think we could all use some tips, if you have them, on how we could get into that mindset, get into that empathy place.
John: Yeah, because it really is a mindset thing. It's before you've written a single word, you haven't put anything on paper or typed a word yet - you're just trying to think through, what are they like right now - like, you know, the person - let's say I was on the call with them - what would they tell me their day was like - what are they really wanting to become? So you have to know them a little bit because it's very hard to write to people that you don’t know. [0:14:12.3]
\ Now you could take a psychological approach and say, you know, I'm going to try to think through these people, think through like what is it that they want - right? They need to be loved .They need to be needed. They want to have their Maslow hierarchy of needs met and so those are…those are legit things and you could talk to that, but the more you can though, maybe it's reading blogs, maybe it's being a part of their social media groups. So I'll give you one example: I was a guest on Kevin's podcast and then out of that, he invited me into his Modern Marketing Chiropractic group and the stuff that I have learned since being a part of that group has completely changed how I talk to chiropractors and it's just knowing them. It's knowing what they struggle with and then they invited to be a part of their conference in Vegas and I got to actually spend three days just sitting with them. I learned that they all skip their sessions. They just want to sit and drink and talk to each other. And so I just sat and listened to them, their conversations and bought them the occasional drink and I learned what Kevin likes to drink now. [0:15:05.4]
So, it actually helped me serve Kevin better so that when I am writing to people like Kevin and people, you know, that are similarly affiliated with him, I can kind of know these are some of the ways to talk to them. These are some of the ways to not talk. So getting to know them that way. So you could do it through social media, being a part of groups. You can do it through picking up the phone and just talking to some of them. You can do it through spending time with them or just reading blogs online or just sitting there and thinking, okay, this is a human being - what are some of their aspirations - and that really does, just taking a moment to reflect on that, just stops you from saying I have a big check mark that I need to put on this to-do item and now I need to just fire something out. I promise you, the writing will be so much better if your heart is broken and fired up about the fact that by putting this piece of content out, I can actually make their life a little better. I can get them a little closer to who they want to become and I can solve a pain point that's keeping them up at night. Man, doesn't that change how we just approach a to-do list? So does that help? [0:16:02.8]
Jonathan: Yeah. Can you speak a little bit because this is one part that I've also struggled with, speak a little bit to that aspirational identity and finding that because I think that's super important.
John: Right. Yeah. So, story brand teaches us that every day, your main character wakes up… like the person that you're writing to, wakes up as the main character in a story. It just so happens that it's their story and they're the most important character in it and they want to become something. Right? So let's … let me just take one subset of my life. Right now, my wife and I would love to do a home renovation. I believe our … we got a great house, but our kitchen sucks. So the kitchen drives me nuts and I want people to come over to our house and love our house and the kitchen is one of the main places that people love to congregate. So what I want to do is I want to make a few choices now - do I hire a contractor? Do I hire just sub-contractors and I become the head contractor? Or do I do it myself? So because I want people to love my house, I now need to figure out how am I going to make this happen. So what are the advantages of hiring someone? What are the advantages of me doing it myself? Now, if I choose the route to do it myself, I will now aspire to become a DIY master. Right? [0:17:08.2]
I want to nail this project. So I'm going to need to be at Home Depot. I'm going to need to be asking questions. All the YouTube videos that I'm going to be watching are all about me becoming this person. And you know what? Google and Facebook and YouTube - they know that that's who I want to become and they're going to start throwing all this stuff in my feed, saying, hey, if you want to become the person who knows how to handle a nail gun or put up a stud or build an island or get the right kitchen cabinets - all of a sudden, these guys are on to it. They are on to my aspirational goal of becoming somebody else, somebody better than who I am. So right now, amateur DIY. I mean, I guess that's the definition of DIY is an amateur. But I want to become a super star DIY. So then, give me the tools that I need. What are the steps that it takes? What's the process to get there? And I will be captivated by whatever you tell me. So do you want to become this? Are you feeling like this and you want to be there? Do you need a tool to help you get there? Alright. And so we all think about it. I mean, think of The Podcast Factory, right - what's the aspirational goal of someone who is starting a podcast? [0:18:07.8]
They want to become a thought leader. They want to get paid more and they want to work less. They want to do less persuasion. They want to do more persuasion and they want to, you know, double their income, quadruple their income. They want to increase their followership. All these things kind of lead to the fact that they are the main character in their story and the happily ever after for them is just crushing it on their podcast and getting, you know, twice the revenue for it. And they will wake up every single day saying, I'm taking today - I'm just going to take one step further. So I'm going to read Jonathan's stuff. Right? And I'm going to make sure that he's going to help me get one step closer. Right? If it's the chiropractors, bend it some more in that area. Right? They're thinking about how do I grow my practice, either so that I can sell it one day - I can make more money so that I can, you know, I can actually take vacations - I can actually get away from it and these are the things that … I want to be just a better chiropractor. I want to be a leader in my field. So those are the aspirational goals of them. Does that help, Jonathan, at all? [0:19:02.5]
Jonathan: Yeah. Let me just …
John: So I kind of gave three examples, right - the home DIY guy or the person who wants their home to be beautiful, the person who wants a podcast that is successful and the chiropractor who needs better marketing.
Jonathan: Excellent.
John: So they all want to become some, a little bit better version of themselves.
Jonathan: I unmuted you. Any question or any comments?
Finn: No, I think that definitely makes sense. What I'm thinking about is, you know, how do we get this into our process.
Yeah and I think, Jonathan, or which Jonathan am I talking -
Jonathan: I'll be Jonathan and you can be ….
Finn: Alright. Alright. What…do you think it might make sense if we added some sort of template to our onboarding process for the new clients to achieve that, just kind of, okay, like who do these people want to be rather than what do they want the most? That kind of stuff or?
John: Yeah. That's going to be… point number two is going to be right in your brand script there and so maybe you have the luxury of taking your client's time. Right? And you could say hey look, I just, you know, you're hiring me to do this copywriting. [0:20:03.0]
I just need to get in your head as you have been in this world for a long time. Right? You're writing to these people. You know them better than I so can I, can I spend 20 minutes with you just talking about what these people want to become and what is keeping them from becoming that because it's going to give us a lot more credibility in our copy. Maybe they are super busy leader and they've got tons of stuff, on the go. They don’t want to just sit and spend time with you on the phone talking about this. So you've got to do the research, which means you got to get involved in that world a little bit and that's why I think the best writers are already kind of niching in the scenario. Right? You know your tribe. Right? So you're a writer to thought leaders or you're a writer to dentists or you're a writer to chiropractors or you know business leaders better than anyone, you can write to them. That's why it's so helpful to be a specialist these days. Right? Because you kind of, you've already done the work. So and then actually people are looking for that. Right? I'm looking for somebody who specializes in marketing to this area or specializes in writing healthcare copy or specializes in writing technical copy, writing to engineers. [0:21:02.5]
So it's scary to have to specialize that much, but if you do that, then you're much more attractive to the person who doesn’t want to spend time teaching you about what lawyers are like and what lawyers want to hear about in their copy and what they, who they want to become.
Jonathan: You know what Finn, now that you had mentioned that, I don't know if it would be helpful, but I think that maybe sharing… so when people come on board, one of the things we have them do is a client cloner and maybe sharing that client cloner with you guys along with that A1 interview might be super useful in getting into the heads of their market because that's what we spend a lot … I just started only doing the client cloner with people. That might be helpful. So actually, just dropped off but that's fine. We're going to …
John: Don't you hate it when you're giving somebody some goals and then they just drop off the call? Like that's …
Jonathan: Alright. Keep it up. Keep it up. What's next?
John: Alright. So the first one is to really know your audience and that's the thing. You can really save yourself a ton of time if you already know them, but there's so much information out there. Like we are not struggling for a lack of information in our society today. [0:22:05.9]
So maybe you read 10 blogs on this area or you get involved in a social media group where people are already talking and you just join the group and then you're just reading through everything that they're talking about because they will tell you about their pain points, you know. And they may not know who they want to become. You may struggle with the aspirational side, but they certainly know what is stopping them from becoming it because it's their pain. We'll get into that in a moment.
So the second point is create a brand script, which is I think you've already talked through this - right, Jonathan? You've kind of already taught them the hero who has a problem who then meets a guide. The guide has a plan. Plan has a call to action. The call to action, if successful, leads to happily ever after. If not, at least negative consequences. Those are the seven parts of the story brand framework and so I would do that. Every single time. Every single time we are doing some writing, just really work through that journey and I think that's what they've done because there was certainly some identification of here's the hero part that I've included. You know, here's the problem that they're struggling with. But the thing is, you don’t have to go through the order every single time. [0:23:02.4]
You can, but you certainly don’t have to. So the best illustration that I've ever heard about this is your brand script is like musical chords. If you've learned guitar, you'd know that there's just a certain amount of chords, like G and C and D. These are very popular chords that, you know, Taylor Swift doesn’t really drift from those too much, just plays the same chords over, but in different progressions, different orders. So, what happens when you have your seven parts of your brand script, you now are able to write songs. You've got the music theory, but now, you just take those parts of the brand script, and you can plug and play them into different places. So instead of talking about addressing the hero, why not just assume that the hero is reading it because you've got their email address and start with one of the problems that they're facing. So right in, catch them with the problem. So, let me give you an example. You know, if you were to say to me, "John, how was your day?" And I said, "Well, it was an interesting day. I started off, I woke up. I made myself a cup of coffee. I had some breakfast, then the kids got up and then we got them dressed and then they went off to go for a walk and then I had a call and then after the call, I went and got myself another cup of coffee because I was a little tired and after the cup of coffee, I decided to do a little bit more writing and then I went here…" and you're just like, okay, like tell me about this day in a way that actually is interesting. [0:23:02.4]
So I say, "You know what - I was so excited to wake up in the morning because I finally, as a young dad, get, I know that I have to get up before my kids, but you'll never guess what happened. On this day, my kids got up too early and they were crying because of the … and then all of sudden, you're like, oh - the kids got up too early and you missed out on your special alone time. I know what that feels like. That's a real struggle and your kids are crying. What? Are they sick? What's going on? Because the problems, as soon as we talk about the problems, they all get us excited because a story is actually driven by the problem itself. So, why not start with the problem? Too many people are struggling with this and if you're struggling with that, instantly, you're going to be like, man, I'm captivated by this because maybe you're going to solve my problem today because I actually have that very problem. [0:25:02.7]
And you know they're struggling with that problem because it's right there in your brand script. Right? You've done the work already in thinking about, hey, what is it that they're struggling with? So, if somebody wrote to me as a young dad saying, "Are you struggling to find time on your own, where you can actually get some real thinking done and your kids are not sleeping enough?" I'd be like, "Yeah, totally," because that's one of my pain points right now. Right? It's my kids aren’t sleeping in long enough and as a result, I feel like my whole routine, that nice routine that I've built, I've worked so hard to protect is totally shot. So teach me how to … how my kids can sleep better and I will pay attention. So you don’t have to start with all that, you know. If you're a young dad and you've got young kids, just say, hey, too many young parents are missing out on opportunities to establish their daily routine because their kids aren’t sleeping. And all of a sudden, I'm like - bing - tell me the solution. Right? Too many people are struggling to start a podcast because they don’t have a plan to go with. Too many chiropractors are losing opportunities because they're not focusing enough on their marketing and all of a sudden, if you have that problem, you're hooked. Right? [0:26:05.8]
So you didn't start with the hero necessarily or you didn't even… you know, another way to do it would be what if you started with the happily ever after? Right? And you started your copy with "Imagine how great it would be if you knew that your kids would wake up at the same time every day, and it was enough time for you to be able to establish a routine. Imagine how great it would be if people could identify you in a room because they listened to your podcast. Imagine how awesome it would be to never have to sell yourself again. Right? All of a sudden, you've just taken something from the brand script or you could even pull in, like if you're a dentist, like, "You'll lose every single one of your teeth that you don’t floss." It's like, oh shoot, okay - I'm listening. You know, but you didn't start with the hero part. You started with the consequences of not taking action. Right? So you, you're just taking that and you're playing, you're writing a song. Every piece of copy that you write is a song made of chords from your brand script. Okay. That's a lot of talking. Jonathan, any thoughts? Finn, anything about that? [0:27:01.5]
Jonathan: I've got him muted, but I'll un-mute you, Finn. But what John said, just a quick synopsis that you might have missed was that we don’t have to start in all the order of the seven pieces of brand script once we have a brand script. We can take different pieces and put them together and make musical copy.
Finn: There you go. Yeah. And the question that I had was obviously there is a… within story brand, you know, you have the seven-step framework and John, you just mentioned something about okay, how do you start or what if you started with the whole transformation part of it - so is the framework not as rigid. Does it work if I kind of take it apart and do it again. Is it more like a checklist or is it more like a process that has to go through the seven steps every time?
John: Yeah, it can be a checklist and it can be a process. In fact, when I make a website, I literally follow the exact same process every single time. I start with the image banner is always happy people enjoying the product with a headline that's very clear about what you can offer them. [0:28:02.4]
So I take from the aspirational side and then I put a call to action right in there, but then right underneath the fold, I always put the problem because people are like why does this website even exist? Well, it exists because too many people are struggling with this. Right? And then all of a sudden, you introduce a solution with the guide. So I do that every time. And it's like clockwork. However, when you're writing an email, you don’t have to write all that all the time or if you're writing a blog for a client or if you're writing a lead generator, you don’t need to start with that same framework every time. What you do, you just pull, pull from different parts and put together something that's unique. Otherwise, it could get really boring. But I would say make it unique because you have creative flexibility to use the framework in the way that you feel like it's called for during this campaign, this automation, this lead generator, this blog - whatever it is that you're writing.
Jonathan: I think for us, Finn, specifically, it's in our favor that we have the brand script first but then we pluck the pieces that we want to get the action because we're about the direct response aspect, and so, whatever action we're looking for in that piece, we just need to pluck the right pieces for it and we don’t necessarily need to go through each line item down the row and all that. [0:29:12.2]
So I think that was huge. That's huge for me, even, because it makes life a lot easier.
Finn: Right.
John: And maybe you just take the plan. Right? Take that one, two, three part from it and that's an entire email. Right? So if you've been reading me for the last, or reading these emails for the last 20 emails, and they're full of case studies and you know how we solve a problem, but you're just wondering what's the plan, well in this email, we're going to tell you. One - do this, and then we're going to do this, number 2, and then number 3, we're going to do this, and all of a sudden, boom, you know, that's … you're done with the email. So you just, all you've done is taken one part of the framework and written your copy and then you're done. Right? You just say and now take the call to action. Let's go back to number one - it was schedule a call; so schedule a call, you know, signed you know, The Podcast Factory.
Finn: Alright. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
John: So these are just tools that you can use, which would be I guess a similar to taking a, one chord in a song and just playing or strumming your guitar and but hey, if it works, then it works. [0:30:09.4]
But yeah, you can see that that's a good opportunity for some content would be just one part of the framework or in this blog, we're just going to talk about what happens when you don’t deal with that chronic pain that you're struggling with. In this email, we're going to talk about what happens if you don’t sleep train your kids. You know, they're going to run over your entire life. They're going to have no discipline. You're going to be a complete dread at work every single day and all these, you know, just list the consequences and all of a sudden, you've got a really compelling email. Now you don’t always do that. It's not like, oh, here's another consequence of not working with us. You change it up. So in the one email, you told them what's going to happen if you don’t work with us, but in the next email, you say, here's what happens when you do work with us. Right? And you just tell a story of how great their life could be and then you mix it up with another one of a case study of somebody that you changed. And what that does is it establishes your authority as a guide who helps people. [0:31:01.7]
So there's no shortage of options. It's not like when you do a brand script, you're only stuck with one email to write or one drum to bang for the rest of your experience with that client or if it's your own, if it's your own work. So that's number two. Any thoughts about that before we move on?
Finn: Yeah, I have… I kind of have to get going because we usually do these calls in half hour or so. I just kind of want to budget it so I'm sorry about that, but I might have a woman screaming at me because dinner is ready pretty soon.
Jonathan: Nice.
John: Nice.
Finn: Just …
Jonathan: We'll have the recording up.
Finn: Yeah. Just one more question that I kind of went into this call with. When you talk about being the guide and I know that's one of your six things also - what would you say, like does the guide always have to be, in our case the podcast host or can the guide also be, you know, something like a concept because to me, something that I try to do is I try to make the copy as much about the reader, about the customer as possible. Right? [0:32:03.5]
And I think the copy gets less salesy when we try to not mention like all the great things the client has done, especially if it's something like podcast show notes where obviously people might be reading them for the 12th time and you know, when it's, again, like Kevin has done all these great things and you can do them too. Right? Yeah, so, well kind of what I'm asking is you know, if we were to put it in like Joseph Campbell terms, like could the guide also become the potion?
John: Right. Well this was one of my things - it's always see yourself as the guide, and the guide really doesn’t need to take all the credit for it. So the guide is in the business of solving people's problems and by doing that, even just showing up with an email, you're being a good guide because you're saying, "Look, I'm sending you this email today because there's something that I can help you with and one of them is solving this problem that you have." So in fact, I don’t even need to talk about myself at all. I can just solve the problem. Imagine if you had a math problem. The reader is just sitting there thinking, "I can't solve this problem at all." And you show up and say, "If you're struggling with this math problem, let me help you solve it," and you kind of work with them. [0:33:08.4]
You empower them. You teach them and then maybe even just say, "Here's the answer." At that point, you don’t need to actually walk away and be like, look at me, look how great I am - I solve math problems. It's like they just look at you and say, "You know what - I was struggling with that and you solved the problem for me. Thank you very much. You've been a good guide today." And it's actually their responsibility to say "Thank you," rather than saying, "Look at what I've done." So there is a time when you can also say, you know, look at who I am and all that, but it's not always appropriate. So you don’t always need to play the guide card in your writing. You just need to always play the guide. My responsibility is not to draw attention to myself. My responsibility is to help you get out of your pain towards who you want to become, and this email is going to be a part of that transition or that progression.
Finn: Okay. Perfect. That makes a lot, a lot of sense. So, I'm going to have to leave you, but thanks so much. This has been like super enlightening. I've had quite a few light bulb moments and I'll definitely be taking notes at the replay. So, perfect. [0:34:06.7]
John: Fantastic. So I think that's an authority piece, I think, Jonathan that's important is as the guide, we don’t always have to talk about ourselves. We just have to show up and help them. So by taking time to write out an email or if you're a guide and you hire somebody, you're investing in your character's journey. You're saying, "I don’t necessarily have the time to write it myself, but I'm going to hire this copywriter who is going to take the time to figure one way that you're struggling so that we can take you out of that pain towards where you want to be and I don’t need to talk about myself at all to do it. I just am establishing my authority.
Hello, Alex. Good to see you in and out there.
Alex: Sorry I've got such a bad connection, it's ridiculous.
John: Totally fine. It's just good to have you. We have been talking about how we have a recording that's going to be available. So, yeah. Totally there for you when you have great connection.
Alex: Fantastic. Fantastic. [0:35:00.6]
John: It's good to see you, though.
Jonathan: Alright, brother.
John: Alright. So that's a way that the guide is - we have to put away that innate human desire to make ourselves look good. I actually like to share a story of when I was dating in my 20s. I was just a mess because I'd always try to talk about like, hey, here's a story about somewhere interesting that I've traveled - oh, here's a celebrity that I've met - oh, here's a high school sporting accomplishment that I'm really proud of. I couldn’t figure out why the girls weren’t interested in that. Right? And then I started to, in my 30s, take an interest actually in the person that was in front of me and listen to what did they want to do - who did they want to become - where did they want to go - what are some things that have shaped them to who they want to be and how does it help them get to where they want to, like who they want to become. And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, I married my wife because of it. Right? Yeah, three kids later… I should have maybe just kept talking about myself, I would have slept more. But anyway, that's another story. But anyways, you play the guide and you actually take an interest in people. You have to get over yourself. Right? It's just like every day, I got to wake up. Just as I put on my clothes, I have to remind myself, this life is not about me. [0:36:06.4]
In fact, if I make it about me, I'm going to push away the very people that matter - in my family, in my friends and in my clients. If I try to make everything about taking from them and you know, can I get attention to myself, I'm going to be useless to them and they'll find someone else to help them. You know, they'll say, you know you seem like a real important person. You're the hero of a story but in fact, if you'll just step aside right now, I need to meet a guide who's going to be focused on helping me win my story because in a world of limited time and resources, I don’t necessarily have time to listen to you talk all about yourself.
Jonathan: Yeah.
John: So, when we write these emails, blogs, or whatever kind of copy, it's always got to be from the framework of I am here to make someone else's life better. I am here to help them get the things that they need to become the people they want to be and that's what it means to always be the guide.
Jonathan: I think that's what we're doing. I think that's what the guys do great here is we have made it a point to make our reader, the reader of the email, the reader of the show notes, the listener be the hero and position our hosts as the guide and whatever they're selling as the plan. So those are things that are set in stone. The other pieces can be moved around, but those three pieces I think they have a good handle on. [0:37:20.1]
John: Yeah. Yeah, and that's why… I mean, we have to tell the client, too, right - the reason why your podcast exists is not to draw attention to yourself and how smart you are and how important the people are that you can have on the show. The purpose is to find a group of people who need your help and show them that you are in the business of solving their problems, that people like them struggle with things like this because they want to become these type of people as well. So that's what I mean by always be the guide, but that… we just talked mostly about authority. I just want to touch briefly on the empathy part of a guide because you can have tons of authority in all sorts of degrees and you know, you have a huge bunch of testimonials but people also want a personal connection as well - a touch point, showing that you are a human and they're a human and you understand some of the things that they're struggling with. [0:38:04.7]
And so what good guides do is they have that authority, but they also have empathy. Empathy simply means I understand or I know what you're going through - I know the struggles, the pressures, the fears, the anxiety that you have and I'm going to be there now to make that connection to show you that this doesn’t have to be the way it is forever for you. Right? So empathy is so important. In fact, if you read some of the literature about the importance of empathy in our marketing today, you'll know that that's a guide characteristic. That’s… people want to trust the people that get them. Right? This … I read this person's stuff and they get me. They just know me. And it's like we have never met before, but they have been reading my mail or something, and that's what good guides do. They put those two things together - authority and empathy and they marry them together in our copy. So those are two…
Jonathan: To add to that and this is something I've been saying all week, and that's why I want to bring it up again, I believe it's Simon Sinek says, "People want to do business with people who believe what they believe." [0:39:01.8]
And so, what we have been looking at, we have been talking to different show hosts and different folks who are starting shows and we have eliminated a bunch of our intake forms and moved to solely the client cloner and really their core values and I think that ties in the empathy and the core values, if you believe what I believe, then we're alike and I like you and you understand me, so I'm more likely to listen to you. So that piece there I want our writers, who do this all the time, to be thinking about it - just people who believe what I believe, and think about all the people that you love and think about why you love them. Like why would you love a Ben Settle? Because he hates lazy people and he's lazy himself, but he makes money … whatever it is - make those little connection points. They're going to be what converts somebody to being like a raving fan, is that empathy component.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And just try to look through your copy and see if you have the word understand in there somewhere. Understand and it's cousin, know. So "I know what you're feeling. I understand the pain. I understand the frustration." [0:40:05.9]
It's just like you've walked in their shoes a little bit. You've … that's why it's so important to have your heart broken by the situations because when your heart is broken, you can actually connect with them, human-to-human. Right? Whether you're B to C or B to B, whatever - it doesn’t really matter - we're always H to H. We're always human to human, and good writing really connects on the human level with people. So that's what it means to be a guide because you really do care about them. Okay. So we skipped one and that was point four.
Point three is just knowing the difference between the two types of pain, and it's a common mistake that people make. They kind of get a little bit focused on the external pain that people are feeling, but the internal is really what motivates us to actually take action. So a plumbing situation - I use this example a lot - there's the problem of a plumbing situation is when water is not passing through pipes but the real driver to cause me to move is the anxiety and the frustration that comes from knowing there's water spilling all over my floor. Right? It's a huge insurance headache. [0:41:02.6]
I've got to call a plumber. Now all of a sudden, you know, I have deep daddy feelings because my dad never taught me about plumbing and those are coming to the surface now and I'm like, this little bit of water in that tiny little pipe over there has created a hurricane of emotions inside of me. And I tell you - you focus on the water, and you're just like everybody else. You talk about the emotions that's going on and all of a sudden, you've got some really good writing in there. And that's the difference when we talk about the external problem and the internal. We often think that, you know, businesses, they just talk about the external. We do this, we build homes, we fix clogged pipes, you know, we help launch podcasts, but really, what's really focusing, what really grips people is when you talk about what they're struggling with internally. So what's the anxiety of people that they're going through when they watch someone else succeed, when they see another podcast get launched, when they see other chiropractors in their town who are far worse than them all of a sudden getting all of the new clients or getting to the top of Google, and what's the frustration they have of trying to run their website and they just can't do it on their own and they've wasted time. [0:42:05.7]
They feel like, you know, they're anxious about it and they're losing money. All of a sudden now, you start talking about that. Right? "Is your website causing you to lose money? Are you losing sleep because your website is causing you to lose money?" Far more powerful writing than just focusing on this. Too many people just talk about external problem.
Jonathan: That's huge.
John: Alright. So those are the two things that we need to focus on - external and internal. There's a lot of talk about the philosophical problem in the Storybrand book and I'll just say this - load up your statements with things that should happen or deserve to happen and you know you've kind of focused on really powerful statements. Everybody who is a thought leader should have a podcast. Okay, that's pretty powerful. You shouldn't have to struggle with how to create a podcast when we have great tools. You deserve to have your voice heard. Stuff like that. Should and deserve are great ways to talk about solutions to problems or what should not happen because you're struggling with a problem.
Jonathan: On the philosophical side, right?
John: Yeah, yeah. That's the philosophical.
Jonathan: The big picture…[0:43:01.6]
John: I don’t always talk about as much about the philosophical side because I think there's so much correction that needs to happen on getting on the internal side. So, just to summarize it - external is the brokenness of this world - so there's something wrong in the world. I can see it. I can touch it. Taste it. Smell it. But my reaction to it is the internal side of it. Right? So that's what actually connects with the people is their internal reaction to a physical external problem.
Jonathan: Dude. That's gold right there. That is gold.
John: Happy to help. Alright. So now, we're going to get less of the theoretical and more into the practical and these are just two points that… I mean, forgive me if it's just reinforcing what you've already said. I hope it's not because it's just a good reminder. We need to be reminded often of things more than we need to even be informed of things. So if you already know this, but understand how people read emails. We read very plain emails and one of the things I like about getting emails from The Podcast Factory is they're not decorated with all kinds of gifs and big flowery fonts and just huge… it's just … it's just like getting an email from a friend and it's very simple and I can just read through it quickly. [0:44:08.5]
And so, listen to that, what I just said: It's simple and I can read through it quickly. I don’t need an art project. I don’t need all kinds of, you know, designing. I just want to read it like I'm getting an email from you. I want the content but I'm not going to read through it all like I'm going to read a research paper or something. Alright, so I've read my share of books and research papers. I don’t want to read those anymore, especially when I'm on the can first thing in the morning. Right? What I want is something that I can just fly through and the best way to fly through something is if you give me some short paragraphs, but really catchy headlines. So start with your subject - you guys know all that - you know about subjects - bait them with the subject and then give them in preview a little bit of what is going to come. So actually, I want to know that if I open up this email, if I spend some of my precious, God given time, that it's actually going to be valuable for me but then, I might not even read every one of your points, just the ones that are solving my particular problem on that particular day. [0:45:05.9]
So the way I'm going to know that is that you're going to break it up and say like, major, like bold headline 1, bold headline 2, bold headline 3, and then you're not going to load up your copy with really long paragraphs. Jonathan, you already know this because your paragraphs are very short and just really punchy, which is great. The thing I would like to see is just a little bit more like here's 1, here's 2, and here's 3 - just like people would read, say a, you know, anything with bullets. Right? People, we love our bullets.
Jonathan: Blog posts looks…
John: Yeah, like a blog post. It's just a little, it's a little post. So that's number five: It's just know that people are not necessarily reading all your words, and that's totally okay. Right? All you want to do is hit them with the headlines and then invite them in to read the actual stuff, but sometimes the headlines do enough of the heavy lifting where they say, this guy or this gal, he's a good guide, and they've written something, they've invested in my life and they've solved a little problem. I don’t have time to get into it all because you know, I've got lots of other things to do, and this is a bonus. [0:46:03.3]
I didn't even see this email coming or I didn't see this podcast coming out, but they've hit me with just these really nice bullet points that I've been able to scan through. Now somebody might actually be like you know, I really want … I really want to read more about this and so they'll actually listen to the podcast or they'll spend more time reading your blog or reading your show notes and they're going to read through every word and kind of psychoanalyze it, but many people won't. And it's whatever they choose that day, it's okay, because you've shown up in their inbox and provided them with enough value that they needed to say this person is a trustworthy guide and now I'm going to take the next step and that's really all we want. We want to get the hire. We want to make the sale and so show up and even just the email itself is like 10 times further along than what most people are doing. Right, Jonathan? You'd know that. Just showing up and writing a nurture sequence is doing a lot better than 9/10 businesses that I work with.
Jonathan: I think the guys are really good at this. I'll give them a compliment on this. The guys are great at writing curiosity-based bullets. That's one of the super powers of this team. [0:47:03.7]
John: Good. Yeah. And so that would be the next, the last point would be just understand copywriting 101. Like I said, forgive me if it's already been taught some time in your material, but the point of a newspaper headline is to get you to look at sub headline. Right? So headline says something, but then I say, oh, what does the sub headline say, and then the point of a sub headline is to get you to read the actual paragraph itself. The actual paragraph or content itself is also made of other sub headlines, which are the points. So this is how copywriting works. It's hey, I'm going to try to capture your attention with a headline and then I'm going to try to draw you in with a sub headline, but really the point is to get you into the next part. And you're warming them up to actually read the paragraph. So if you think along those lines, then you'll really utilize the power of a headline and a sub headline because you want them to get to the actual content. You didn't write all that content so that it would be skipped over. You actually are trying to draw them in. So, here's the point - make sure your headlines are… not, they don’t have to be clever anymore - they don’t have to be creative. They just have to be clear because, and you're going to laugh at this because it's so true, I have never had a client call me up and say, "John, on your website or on your next email, could you just give me a riddle that I could then think about for about a day? [0:48:16.6]
In fact, I don’t have a lunch appointment today and I just have an hour where I just want to sit there and try to think what is John selling in this riddle." Right? It's like, it's ridiculous. Wouldn't it be nice if people just came to us and said, "I'd love to have a riddle today," but the truth is, I hate riddles. I skip over every single riddle. I'm just like, I don’t want a riddle. I don’t have time for riddles. I just want a clear, you know, disaster happened in Los Angeles today, okay - well now, I'm curious. What is it? What's the disaster? Or, "Make a million dollars this year." Okay, well, I'd love to do that. And then well, how do I do it? Well, you could launch your own podcast. Okay. Now this is making a million dollars by launching a podcast. Okay, fine. I'll find out how I can make a million dollars by launching my own podcast this year. You see how it works?
Jonathan: Would you tell me?
John: You are already doing it. You're doing it - look at you. Look at you. You've made it, Jonathan. You've got… anyways, okay. That's …well we won't get into our personal finances. That's not where I was headed. [0:49:10.5]
Jonathan: Not on this show, no.
John: Yeah, but don’t, don’t tell riddles with your headlines because people don’t want riddles. They don’t have time for riddles. What they want is clear, concise explanations of what you're going to tell them that invite them in to read more. Right? And the more you can tap into that aspirational side, which we talked about in number one, the more you're going to have their attention. So you're not going to write headlines in a chiropractor sequence about disasters in Los Angeles. You're going to write about something in their life. So you're already kind of got them because you know your niche at this point. Right? So write simple headlines that target what they're thinking about, that they're going to say, okay - I've read that. that's interesting. It's invited me to go further. And that's how people read newspapers. That's how people read emails. No riddles. No creativity. Just clear. Just clarity. Clarity is the new gold standard because people are moving so fast. Right? You just have a blip moment to catch them and you don’t want to confuse them. [0:50:02.6]
So, six points. Know your audience. Create a brand script but use it like you're writing a song, not as an actual script that you have to use every time. Understand the difference between the two kinds of pain points - external and internal - and then you can add philosophical, but we didn't quite get into it because it's a whole other thing. Always be the guide; guides show empathy and authority. Understand how people read emails - got to be short, keep your paragraphs short, just make one point in it and then, you know, give nice headlines, which guide people along and then no riddles as you do your headlines that capture attention and invite people to read more.
That's my thoughts for you today as I've read those three writing samples that were sent. I really… I thought, you know, hey, we're dealing with some experts here. These people aren’t your hacked grade six writers, but definitely something I thought I could help with and I hope it has.
Jonathan: Super. That was more than I expected, John. Very generous. Hey, Alex, if you want to ask anything or say anything, you're welcome to.
Alex: No, I was just… I need to go back through because I missed quite a bit of the content but for the last couple of points, I did… it has been very eye-opening for myself, especially the internal and external emotions. [0:51:08.9]
Jonathan: Emotion and reaction.
Alex: I know I've been… in the past, been guilty of like sticking on the surface level stuff, which again, like you said, now 10 people are doing the same thing, but yeah, I mean, the whole story brand thing puts a whole new, like a different element on writing, you know, as a thing. I appreciate your time as well, like an hour, an hour of solid content like this is going to help every single writer in this podcast.
Jonathan: In the stable.
Alex: In the stable, yeah.
John: Well, I'm a friend of Jonathan, and so Jonathan's friends tend to be pretty cool. So I'm happy to help them out. So.
Alex: Awesome.
John: One call to action, too, if you guys are interested in story brand, I have this thing that we mentioned in the beginning called the story brand or actually, no, I can't call it story brand. The get Clear Virtual Summit where I feature my favorite story brand guides and they're just going to give their expertise for 45 minutes in an interview with me where I just talk to them about copywriting, websites, speaking to nonprofits with story brand, speaking to, you know, various niches and stuff, photographers I think we have a session on that. So if anybody is interested in that, just go to GetClearSummit.com and then they can be a part of it totally free. [0:52:11.9]
Jonathan: Alright. I'm in on that and I'll buy the … you better make the tapes available for us.
John: It already is.
Jonathan: Alright. Good, good, good. Alright, so, I think that's everything. We went longer this time, but I think this is going to be a super valuable resource for the team, 100%. Thank you, Alex, for working so hard to be here. Finn, you were here earlier. Kyle, this is the first meeting he doesn't make - he missed a big one. John, super generous and there's some nuggets here, bro. Like I might pull out some soundbytes for you because you need those. Like that internal and external?
John: I'm here to serve. It's all yours, man. So use it as you need it and yeah, happy to help.
Jonathan: Alright, guys. That's it. That's a wrap. Enjoy your weekend. Stay out of trouble. Don’t make any more kids until you're ready.
John: Yeah - amen to that. Amen. I finally figured out what kept causing it, so we're finally looking…
Jonathan: Oh, oh yeah - the 5-year-old comment - got it.
This is ThePodcastFactory.com
