Welcome to the Masculine Psychology Podcast, where we answer key questions in relationships, attraction, success, and fulfillment. Now, here's your host, world-renowned therapist and life coach, David Tian.
David: Welcome to the Masculine Psychology Podcast. I'm David Tian, your host. I've got an extra-special treat for you for this episode. For the first time ever, I am sharing the recording of a one-off one-time therapy session with a listener.
A few episodes ago, I put out a call for listeners who wanted to work with me one-on-one and make that available for the podcast. Dozens of people wrote in, and if that's you, thank you very much. It was most helpful if the listener asked a pointed question or had a specific topic that they wanted to address, because we would only have that hour, and the idea was to edit it down or to select some portion of it so that we have a 30-minute, roughly 30-minute podcast. [01:02.6]
The gentleman we selected for the very first attempt at this is Brandon, and you'll hear from him shortly. In this session with Brandon, we cover a very important and very common topic that comes up for a lot of men, which is how much of your vulnerability do you reveal to women, especially if you're in a relationship or you're in an interaction with a woman that you find attractive, and you don't want to be too much for her or to turn her off?
So, the bigger question that Brandon was asking was how to stay vulnerable while you're in the process, the therapeutic process of healing and growing, and not be too much for people, especially the women that you're with. Brandon had already done quite a lot of IFS therapy work beforehand and I didn't know that going into it, so it was a really pleasant surprise. He had lots of self-energy, so we got to go deeper much earlier than I expected. [01:57.5]
Also, just one last note. There were a lot of silences during the session. It was a very contemplative, calm, and gradual or slow session, and I've asked the editors to cut out the silences as much as possible so that there won't just be blank space in the audio here to save you time and so it will go along more quickly. But I do want to point out that in an actual IFS therapy session, the pace will often be slower.
I've left the session completely unedited otherwise because I'm not actually sure where to cut. Everything was important. Hopefully, those who are longtime podcast listeners will have developed a psychological sophistication to pick up what's happening, and I do try to narrate a bit as we go along. I will come back to the end and give a little bit of wrap up. So, here we go.
___
David: All right, welcome, Brandon.
Brandon: Hello. [02:52.4]
David: We had a little conversation just before we went live here and got a little background about Brandon, and he's been doing IFS therapy with his own therapist for almost a year and started off weekly. Then they went monthly, and now biweekly, and he's done a lot of great work, so I want to acknowledge and applaud that. And you've got a question, so let's dive into the question and we'll go from there.
Brandon: Okay. So, my question is how to handle emotions that have surfaced through my therapeutic process. I feel better than when I started, but a part of me also feels like an emotional basket case sometimes, because surface stuff that was buried is now surface level. Yeah, a part of me that's connected to that feels like I am too much for others.
David: All right, thank you for sharing that. So, when does it come up for you when you feel like you could be too much for others? Are you experiencing these overwhelming feelings in public or with other people around? [04:04.7]
Brandon: They don't happen quite as much around other people. I would say, it's kind of in my reflections of interactions once I'm in private.
David: Okay.
Brandon: Regrets about things I said or how I came off of a part of me that's very image-conscious.
David: Right. Can you give an example so I have a better idea?
Brandon: An example is we were just talking about jujitsu. Sometimes I feel like I can be that white belt that starts coaching other white belts, and, afterwards, I'm like, Ah . . . oh. Just keep my mouth shut. People aren't paying to hear anything for me. That kind of thing. Nobody's ever said anything to me, and then . . . . [05:01.5]
David: So, you were sharing about being an emotional basket case. But with jujitsu, do you feel like that's connected to being an emotional basket case?
Brandon: I wouldn't go as far as saying emotional basket case. I am aware of some feelings that can come up when I am doing jujitsu.
David: Okay, so because we just have this one session, I can just maybe point out to maybe something you already know, the teaching of others—that was another question that you had emailed us—it seems to be a way to protect from dealing with the vulnerability that's there, as a coping mechanism. You then move into a teaching role, because it's a lot more secure to be in a teaching role, just like I'm doing right now. Now we move into this cognitive thing and now it's a safe distance. Right? So, you can notice that.
Now what we want to do is to see what is under that. If you weren't teaching, what would you be feeling? Or going back to your original question, when are you in an emotional basket case? [06:04.2]
Brandon: When am I an emotional basket case? Thoughts of a previous relationship come up. An ex-girlfriend of mine who we had already broken up at this point, but we're still living together, and I was kind just starting to get into IFS and stuff and I was so excited about it. I was like, This is amazing. This could help you, too. [06:50.5]
Pretty much that all ended with her saying that she's glad I feel like I'm getting help, but I was just way too much for her and she felt like she had to walk on eggshells around me. And I do remember one time, in anger, she said that she wishes I never came across any of that stuff.
David: Can you say some more about this walking on eggshells? What was that about?
Brandon: She felt like she couldn't say anything around me without the possibility of me completely shutting down.
David: And when you shut down, what is that like?
Brandon: I'm pretty good at ignoring people.
David: Oh, so she just feels ignored.
Brandon: Ignored.
David: You're not hitting her. You’re not screaming. You’re just staring off into space, or do you go somewhere, go for a long drive?
Brandon: Stare off into space. I will just go for long walks.
David: And what--
Brandon: Be scrolling on my phone. [08:01.7]
David: Scrolling, right.
Brandon: I would say, it's mostly ignoring until I get pushed.
David: Oh, until you get pushed.
Brandon: Yeah.
David: And she would push you in asking for you to connect with her, right?
Brandon: Yes.
David: “Talk to me. What's going on? I feel lonely.” That sort of thing?
Brandon: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Brandon: So, then eventually I tried to acquiesce, but that's very short lived. And, eventually, some sort of argument will happen over . . . it can be pretty unrelated to anything.
David: And what would you do? Just no shame here. I just want to understand the situation. Push. Try to acquiesce. That doesn't work.
Brandon: Eventually . . . eventually, I’ll end up yelling if I'm being bothered too much. Talk . . . talk. [09:07.0]
David: Do you apologize for it later?
Brandon: Well, yeah. I don’t . . . . A part of me is very aware of how I sound right now.
David: Oh, and how do you sound?
Brandon: A part of me is just kind of like, you sound like a mixture of your mom and dad right now.
David: Yeah, okay, I’m glad you notice that, so that saves me a bunch of work. Great. So, this is natural that you would internalize what you learned growing up.
As sort of context for anyone listening, your father walked out on your family or divorced when you were two, one and a half years old to two. Your dad lived in the same town, but only saw you two or three times a year, and he always had intentions to be better, a better father, but never followed through. So, this would explain a lot of the checking-out coping strategy. [10:03.1]
And then the exploding, you mentioned that your mother had explosive anger, and then, 20 to 30 minutes later, would apologize and try to soothe you. Which is why I was asking, did you apologize right after, relatively soon thereafter? That's a kind of another internalized strategy. So, you've seen this already.
Brandon: Yeah.
David: You understand, okay. So, there's a part of you that is what IFS would call a firefighter who jumps in, in response to anything that triggers those old associations, and the way that this part dealt with it was what it saw your mother do, and that makes a lot of sense. And how do you feel toward that part of you that has these outbursts?
Brandon: I feel . . . I don't know if art is the right word, but there's a part of me that just says like, Oh, wow . . . you're very creative in the-- [11:11.3]
David:
Brandon: Yeah. You're very creative in the ways you protect me.
David: Beautiful. Shall we take a moment to just send that appreciation to that part? The part that protects you with these outbursts. And notice how it responds to your appreciation. And how did it respond to your appreciation? Was it able to take it in?
Brandon: Yes. That part is pretty used to feeling ostracized from the rest of my system, so there's a certain amount of eagerness to take that in. [12:05.8]
David: Oh, wonderful. And would this part like to share anything or does it have anything that it needs you to know or understand?
Brandon: When I close my eyes, those visualizations of something inside of me that's capable of blowing itself up really big, like a puffer fish, but in reality, is actually very small and fragile, and as I say that, there's a feeling of wanting to be protected, like, I need protection. [13:05.6]
David: You mean there’s a part that’s just feeling wanting to be protected?
Brandon: Yeah, this part wants to be soothed.
David: Right.
Brandon: Wants to be held.
David: And how do you feel toward it as you notice that?
Brandon: Still understanding. Who doesn't want to be soothed?
David: Can you do that for this part? Give it that soothing, to hold them?
Brandon: Yeah.
David: Okay, good. So, you take a moment to do that and notice how the part responds to your soothing and holding it. [13:57.4]
Brandon:
David: And what's happening for you now?
Brandon: I feel very . . . I don't know, it's just a feeling of peace right now.
David: Beautiful. And can you continue to hold the small, fragile puffer-fish part as we continue, just holding it there in your arms or your hands, soothing it. Is that something you can do? [15:09.1]
Brandon: I want to, but there's a part of me that has doubts.
David: Okay, so first we're going to invite the part that has doubts to step back. Let me know if it's able to do that or willing to do that, and if it's not, that's okay, too.
Brandon: No, I’m . . . I feel an urge to almost argue.
David: Oh, good. What is it like to argue about or what is it doubting? [16:00.0]
Brandon: It doubts that I mean what I say, and it also doubts that the puffer-fish part of me is actually under control.
David: Oh, okay. So, first of all, is there a part that's trying to control the puffer fish?
Brandon: Yes.
David: If there's a part that's trying to control the puffer fish, is it the doubting part or is that another part, or other parts?
Brandon: There is a part that feels like, as long as it does its job, I won't get angry. [17:06.0]
David: Okay, and what is this job that this other part does?
Brandon: I need to always be enthralled in something. I want to be distracted.
David: Ah, okay.
Brandon: And there's a lot of ways to do that.
David: Is one of them scrolling on your phone?
Brandon: Scrolling on my phone, listening to an audiobook, reading a book, going on a walk. There's a lot of things I can do to distract myself.
David: This sounds like the part that you were describing earlier of shutting down and ignoring, or maybe those were your ex-girlfriend’s words. But you were scrolling on your phone. Is this the part that distracts? And is this the same part that doubts or is the doubting part a different part from the one that distracts. [18:10.3]
Brandon: These are different parts.
David: Okay. Okay, so they're both there. And which one seems to need your attention more right now? The one that distracts or the one that doubts or is doubting?
Brandon: The one that distracts feels more surface level right now.
David: Okay. Hello, the one that distracts. And how do you feel toward the one that distracts?
Brandon: I feel like how you feel when you have a mischievous little brother.
David: Okay, can you say what that feeling is like?
Brandon: Responsibility comes to mind. [19:07.1]
David: Okay, you have some responsibility toward this part, do you?
Brandon: Yeah.
David: And you notice this mischievousness. Is that kind of annoying but cute?
Brandon: Yeah, there's a-- yeah, there's feelings of this part trashing up a wall in some ways, but at the same time, very accepting that it's part of a lot of my quirkiness, and I like that.
David: Okay, so maybe you can let this part know, this distracted, the one that distracts, that you appreciate what it does and, especially, its quirkiness. Do you notice how he responds to your appreciation? [20:06.6]
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David: What's happening for you now? [21:06.3]
Brandon: This part is very happy that I'm here, and he wants to grab my hand and run off and do something fun and entertaining.
David: And is he doing that because he finds it fun and entertaining?
Brandon: Yes, but I also have the feeling that it's part of what he does normally.
David: Right. And you mentioned earlier he's trying to protect from the puffer fish coming out. Is that right?
Brandon: Yeah. I feel like he wants just to get me away from this particular scene.
David: Which scene? [22:00.7]
Brandon: Just any scene that involves some of my other parts?
David: Other parts besides the puffer fish? I keep referring to it as the puffer-fish part. Hopefully, that's okay with that part. Is there another name? If there's another name that part prefers, it can let us know.
Brandon: Puffer fish seems like a good name.
David: Okay. And the mischievous little brother wants to take you away from the puffer fish and any other parts like that. Is that right?
Brandon: Yeah.
David: And what is it afraid will happen if the puffer fish, or if you're in that scene with the puffer-fish part?
Brandon: I'll get stuck.
David: Can you say some more about what that means, “get stuck”? [23:06.1]
Brandon: I don't-- I don't-- I don’t want to be stuck in negative emotions.
David: Oh, okay. Negative emotions. Negative emotions like anger.
Brandon: Yeah, it's one of them.
David: What are some others?
Brandon: I don't-- I don’t-- I don’t want to be sad all the time.
David: Okay, angry and sad. Any others?
Brandon: Bored.
David: Okay. And what if you do get stuck in anger or sadness, or boredom?
Brandon: It sucks.
David: Okay, it sucks. Alright. So, it sounds like I'm talking directly to the mischievous little brother? [24:00.0]
Brandon: Yeah.
David: Okay, I completely understand how that would suck, being in these emotions of anger or sadness or boredom, and that you would want to take Brandon away from these. Is there anything else that you want me to know or us to know about you right now?
Brandon: That I need to hurry up.
David: That you need to hurry up. Because these emotions are coming up?
Brandon: I'm always in a hurry. I just want-- I just need to hurry up.
David: To avoid these emotions coming up?
Brandon: I guess.
David: Or there's something you need to accomplish?
Brandon: There's always something to accomplish that--
David: Oh, okay. What do you need to accomplish right now?
Brandon: I need to be awesome.
David: Okay, be awesome.
Brandon: I need to be impressive.
David: And if you're awesome and impressive, what will happen? [25:02.4]
Brandon: I love them.
David: Yeah. Is it okay for you to feel that right now?
Brandon:
David: If those tears could talk, what would they say?
Brandon: I love you.
David: That’s beautiful. And is the one that distracts able to take that in?
Brandon: He doesn't know what to do with it. [26:08.4]
David: Is it overwhelming?
Brandon: Yeah, a little bit.
David: That love that you're sending him? Okay. So, maybe you can send him a little bit at a lower frequency. Maybe you can just give it to him a little bit slower.
Brandon: Okay. Well, this little mischievous boy part really is not used to being paid attention to and it doesn't-- It’s so used to not being paid attention to that it feels like it doesn't want to be paid attention to, and I'm reminded of not needing anybody. [27:07.8]
I see myself and I remember the bored little boy that I was when my mom had to work and I spent so much time at my grandparents’. I love my grandparents, but, yeah, they were old. I just paced around in the backyard, pretending I was Spider Man by myself, but no friends. Just me, and I was happy. So, I don't need anybody. But that doesn't change that I want somebody.
David: Yeah.
Brandon: I think that was a lot. [28:00.0]
David: Can we stay with that memory of you in your grandparents’ backyard?
Brandon: Yeah.
David: And it's amazing and beautiful. That part was able to experience happiness there, pretending to be Spider Man. That is some really great creativity and imagination, and resilience, adaptability. But there must be some loneliness, too. And is it okay to notice that loneliness? Notice how you feel toward that little boy in the backyard, pretending to be Spider Man.
Brandon:
David: And does he know that you're here now? [29:12.1]
Brandon: No. I could say hello.
David: Yeah, how do you feel toward him, seeing him there?
Brandon: I feel appreciative of imagination. He makes me chuckle because . . . he was lonely, but in so many ways, he was never even aware of it.
David: And is there anything that he needs in that memory? [30:07.5]
Brandon: That little boy misses his grandpa.
David: Yeah. Is that because Grandpa has passed now?
Brandon: Yeah. And Grandpa was my best friend. [31:00.0]
David: Well, that makes a lot of sense that he’d miss him. And do you miss Grandpa?
Brandon: So much.
David: Okay. So, maybe this would be a good time to let him know you're here with him and that you miss Grandpa, too. Maybe you can give him a hug and let him know he's not alone, and that you both miss Grandpa and that's okay. And it's good to honor his memory together. And as he notices your presence, notice how he responds to presence. [31:44.0]
Brandon:
David: And how is he responding to your presence?
Brandon: He's very happy I'm here.
David: It's beautiful. And is there anything else that he wants to share with you or needs you to know, or needs from you in order to be okay right now? [32:40.8]
Brandon: Well . . . he’s sharing with me how much he craves just attention, especially any sort of attention from an older guy. Part of me feels kind of embarrassed to say that, but then, a part of me, a lot of me completely understands.
David: Good.
Brandon: I was-- I was a little kid who just wanted an older brother, a dad, just anybody. That's okay that I needed that. [33:51.8]
David: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I think it's actually healthy and common for young men or any man to crave a mentor that can guide him. I think that's normal. And it's healthy. Can you commit, as we're winding down, to checking in with the mischievous little brother each day for at least the next few weeks?
Brandon: Yeah, I think it will be a lot of fun, because he seems like a lot of fun.
David: He does? That's wonderful. Just let them know that and that you're excited to continue and build this relationship, and that you're here and you're an older man. Maybe he doesn't yet know how old. That's something that the two of you can catch up on. And with the puffer-fish part, can you commit to checking in with this part every day for at least the next few weeks? [35:10.5]
Brandon: Yeah.
David: Beautiful. So, just let them feel that from you that you'll be checking in again soon. If they're okay right now, you can send your appreciation to any other parts that were observing or participating, including the one that was doubting, appreciating their intention and their presence. And if they're all okay right now, you can take a deep breath in through your nose holding at the top and a long breath out through your mouth. And whenever you're ready, you can gently open your eyes. [36:04.5]
Great work, Brandon. So, the mischievous little brother and puffer fish. You'll be checking in with them each day. Do you have any comments or questions about the work we just did?
Brandon: That was fun.
David: It was. I’m glad it was fun for you.
Brandon: I have actually-- I’ve come into contact with the puffer-fish part before.
David: I can see that. Makes a lot of sense. He quickly adjusted.
Brandon: Yeah, and the mischievous little brother is a new part in some ways. I feel like I’ve always had an awareness of my parts that are very good at distracting me, but I’ve never met them in that way or him. [37:08.3]
David: Right. That was beautiful, and thank you for the honor to witness your parts in your process.
Brandon: Thank you.
___
David: So, that was the episode with Brandon. He discovered that his true self was the answer for overwhelming emotions, that as long as his true self was there, then the emotions weren't overwhelming. But as long as the parts felt like they were on their own or, as we say in IFS therapy, those parts were blended-- That is, they completely took over his consciousness so that there wasn't room there for his higher self. But once he was able to notice that he was blended, that was the first step to unblending, and the more that his self was there, the more these emotions that were overwhelming no longer felt overwhelming. [37:59.0]
Another approach that often works very well is to ask the part that is overwhelming with these emotions to not overwhelm. We didn't need to do that with Brandon's parts, because as soon as Brandon’s Self was there, they calmed down more. But if they didn't, the next thing we could do is to invite or request those parts to not overwhelm Brandon. And it's remarkable that when the parts know that they are with the true self or the higher self, they want to be seen and heard and understood, so they will slow down or not overwhelm with the emotions that they're carrying.
Now, Brandon's original question was about being too much of an emotional basket case for others. That is, he felt like he was too much for them. As we got to know the background of this question, we discovered that it was largely what he had in mind, the situation with his ex-girlfriend, who was saying, “You're too much for me,” that she had to walk on eggshells, and that he would shut down and ignore her, and scroll on his phone and become distracted and wasn't there for her. [39:04.1]
She felt, in a way, she didn't understand what was happening, and then she was trying to make a bid or bids for connection over and over, and those then led to Brandon's more extreme reaction, where he’d get angry in a kind of explosive manner.
Okay, so a little coaching for those who are in a similar situation as Brandon, going through a therapeutic process that is bringing up a lot of emotions, a lot of memories from the past, a lot of unburdening and processing. So, if you have a significant other, it's really important that you explain to them, as much as you can, as much as possible, what's actually happening for you. And that means that you will be sharing the content of what you've learned in the sessions so that they can understand when you go wandering off or when you stare into space, or when you suddenly cry, they can understand what's happening.
One of the best ways that you can do this is to invite them to come into a couple’s therapy session or sessions with you, and that's actually the best way or one of the best ways to bring your partner into therapy, instead of saying, “Look, I'm going to see a therapist and it's awesome. You should see a therapist, too.” [40:10.0]
If that works, that's great. But if she's hesitant or reluctant, and she just sees you as a kind of weirdo because you're doing this, but, obviously, it's helping you, then you can invite her to come into either a session with your therapist or you can together find a couple’s therapist and do some sessions together as a couple.
So, you have your own individual therapist and then you have a couple’s therapist, and there she will get to witness and kind of be coached along your process. As a result, it will be a lot easier for her to access empathy for what you're going through, because now she has the understanding intellectually of what's happening so she's not panicking, or at least, she's not in the dark.
Then in couple’s therapy, a good couple’s therapy session, she'll get to witness your process as it's happening, as it's unfolding, and if it's a good therapist, he or she will be able to bring your significant other into the process as well. Then when she gets comfortable with that, you will be able to witness her process and it is an incredibly bonding experience when done well. [41:13.6]
So, don't go to just a talk therapist who analyzes unendingly. Find a good experiential therapist, like IFS and like Gestalt, and you can even ask your individual therapist for a referral or recommendation to a couple’s therapist. But you can also go on to the many directories, for instance, the IFS Therapy Directory and go search for someone who specializes in couple’s therapy in your time zone, and contact a bunch of them and try them out.
In a way, you have to pull back your curtain of your process and reveal what's happening to your significant other. Otherwise, they will feel alienated and possibly even threatened because you're going through this transformation without them. And who knows how you will feel about them at the end of it? They have all kinds of other associated fears and anxieties. [41:59.7]
So, try to share as much of your process with them as much you can, as far as you understand. That way, when you go through these emotions, and your behavior is associated with them, they'll at least have the context for it. It would be really helpful for you to enter into a couple’s therapy session or sessions with the partner so they can see firsthand what's really going on.
Okay, so thanks so much to Brandon for sharing. If you're interested in something like this, let us know. You can go to the contact form on my website, DavidTianPhD.com, and Fill it out. Give as much background as you can, and the specific topic or issue that you want to address.
If you liked this format, it's really important that you let me know so that we can do more of these, and if you didn't like it, that's important to let me know, too, so we can stop doing these. So, let me know what you thought of this episode, it’s really important, and if this benefited you in any way, please share it with anyone else that you think would benefit.
Thank you so much for listening. I look forward to welcoming you to the next episode. David Tian, signing out. [43:05.5]
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