It's time to rip the cover off what really works to ditch addiction, depression, anger, anxiety, and all other kinds of human suffering. No, not sobriety. We're talking the F-word here: Freedom. We'll share, straight from the trenches, what we have learned from leaving our own addictions behind, and coaching hundreds of others to do the same—and since it's such a heavy topic, we might as well have a good time while we're at it. [00:27.6]
Bob: Hi, welcome back to another episode of the Alive and Free Podcast. Today, I want to take you through part two. So, a couple of weeks ago, I told you about, we were talking about pedestals and pits, and I told you about what had happened with Jasmine and I in our relationship as we started with the sense of total honesty, right. And throwing everything down with the idea of making a decision about whether or not we're going to stay with each other and whatnot. And I was using that as an example of ways that people need not put me on a pedestal. But I wanted it to kind of like full circle on the story and on what's been going on, because I think it's really important and a really powerful exploration of a concept that is very twisted in Western society, if you ask me, obviously, other people think it's great, otherwise it wouldn't be around, but, and it's the concept of boundaries. [01:27.3]
The idea of having healthy boundaries is an idea that's very, very prevalent in a lot of relationships and even among husband and wife, that husband and wife are taught that you got to set certain boundaries in order for both of you to be okay. And I've talked about this a long time ago, but I think I want to revisit it in this new way, because one of what I've learned and two of what's happened and three, because I think it bears repeating. When you have a boundary, that means you have a keep out sign, you have a fence, people aren't allowed in. Does that make sense? So, if I'm setting a boundary, like I don't accept these, this language and I don't do this and I don't do that, then that is a, in a sense of keep outside. Now I'm not talking about it in terms of, well, somebody saying that, and so I walk the other way, that's different. But I'm talking about in a marriage where there are rules about where the other person is and is not allowed. See, cause to me, marriage is about becoming one, one flesh, one mind, one heart. In scripture, all of the spiritual disciplines are talking about becoming one unity, oneness, yoga, like all these things, oneness with the universe, with God, with all of it. [02:35.8]
The idea of oneness, if you are one, there can't be a boundary between you, there can't be a division cause that makes two, right. One divided is two. And so, as I've thought about this a long time, the idea of a boundary just really made no sense to me for a long time. I wanted to experience oneness and union with my wife, with all of existence and whatnot. And I spent a long-time training in all kinds of things to kind of create those experiences. And I've had incredible meditative and spiritual and psychedelic and visionary experiences that have tremendously altered what I feel and see on a daily basis as I've walked through the planet. But still in my relationship with Jasmine, at least at the time that I was telling you about those things, like there were boundaries, there were things, and some of them were, felt boundaries. Like I thought it was a boundary and maybe it wasn't and she thought it was a boundary and maybe it wasn't, right. Cause we didn't really feel a hundred percent okay to talk to each other or to say certain things or do certain things. [03:40.1]
And so, at the time the boundary was you had the psychedelic use and those types of things not okay. And so that was a boundary, right? And so, it all came to a head and we spent some time becoming really, really honest with each other. And the whole point of it was to decide since the two of us had made that situation to decide, each of us got a right to decide whether or not we wanted to stay with the other person. And the only motive in my mind was there was no good reason to stay unless the motive was because I want to be with that person. Staying for any other reason was just a cop-out was just an excuse, was just an attempt or a suppression of what life was or a fear. And so, I only wanted to stay and she only wanted to stay, if the reason was, I would like to see where this goes, I really want to be with this person, that's it. And so, we spent some time being super honest and by super honest, I mean, I detailed everything. [04:44.0]
Full disclosure often is very detrimental in a relationship cause often it's only one sided. So, therapists often have full disclosure happen in a relationship and it's the person who's seen as the perpetrator or the one who did bad. They're supposed to disclose every ounce of their life for the other person to know about and see and whatnot but then the other person isn't required to fully disclose everything that they've felt thought and done. And that has often very detrimental because the person who has done full disclosure now feels like the other person has leverage against them and all this other stuff, not always, but often. And on the other side, the person who received full disclosure, well now they have way more in their head than they necessarily wanted sometimes. They don't know what to do with it, but they can't think of the same person the same way. Well, neither Jasmine or I wanted this. And so, it was a question of all right, well, let's lay everything down and I detailed everything that I'd done, everything that I'd experimented with, everything. I'd tried, all the thoughts that I'd had, the feelings, the resentments, the everything was a big, long letter, 17 pages handwritten. And all of it was like, this is where I'm at. And I believe you deserve someone who can love you for all that you are. These are the things I'd like to build in a relationship. These are the things that I'm, that currently I'm interested in. I don't know if I'd be interested in them in the future. I don't know how quickly that'll change. This is what I've done. This is, you know, what it feels like I am. This is where I don't feel safe. This is what I'd like to be able to share with you. This is what, you know, all of the things I just said, everything down and I was like, is this an like, is it already, is it a deal breaker? [06:19.3]
Like looking at all the things that I am and have done and all that stuff. I don't see a way to come back from this, but I would like to, but I don't see a way. And I don't know if that's something that you ultimately want or that I ultimately want, but here's where I'm at. She detailed some of her stuff and I was, she hasn't gone out and done a bunch of things. So, in terms of full disclosure, the only thing she could disclose were feelings or thought processes, times when, instead of coming to me with, with something that was about me or in a relationship, she would go to somewhere else, you know, kind of smaller things by comparison on the outside. And so here we were in this place where we were being a hundred percent honest and open and to see each other in every aspect, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually energetically, like who is this being on the other side? And am I willing to choose in for this one to let them in? And I think this is an important distinction, not to get them or to hold them or to have them, but to let them into all of me. I don't know if that makes sense to you. So, I'm going to repeat it in a different way. [07:26.2]
Your eyes are built to receive light, that's what happens. Light comes in, but there are ways that the muscles in your eyes and your retina and the way your cornea shapes and stuff can operate in order to restrict the amount of light that comes in or to focus so that the light that comes in is only coming in from a certain place. And if you think about the way we talk about a person's gaze, a person can have a piercing gaze, meaning they're a hunter, they're going out and stabbing for information, they're looking for something. And another person can have a very relaxed gaze and an open gaze, which is simply letting things in. Try this out for a second. Look at something really intensely. Notice how your eyes feel, how hard they feel, the kind of density inside the eyeballs, the way the muscles in the, inside the head and around the forehead work when you're staring at something and then relax your gaze and just let the whole panoramic view go in and notice the difference. Notice what it's like to let all the information in. You can do this while driving, you can do this while talking to somebody while listening to a podcast or working, you can just let all the information in and notice what it does to your entire physiology in your body. [08:34.9]
If you're looking at another person this way, often looking with a sharp gaze is a way of putting up a shield and a protection so that some of their energy, some of their lights, some of their life doesn't get into you. Because if you're anything like me, I was afraid of contamination, afraid of being contaminated by other people's ideas, their thought processes, their everything else. Cause I already thought I was bad enough and I was broken enough as it was, I didn't need more. In fact, a lot of spiritual traditions over the, around the world, deal with celibacy and deal with things, like even in India, like they don't even shake hands. They just put their hands together and bow because there's memory that's passed between flesh when you shake hands or when you touch. And it's a recognition like, look, I'm already enough to handle, I don't need more. So, thank you very much, but you know, I'll be on my way. And you give them water, they’ll have you set the water down and they'll pray over it and then drink it or salt, same thing, right, because salt and water carry memory in a really big way. [09:28.1]
And so, letting a person in is a very different type of experience. It's saying that you're willing to dissolve who you are and let them infiltrate with all that they are, And it's a scary experience. And you can feel this a little bit with your eyesight. And if you look at a person with a relaxed gaze, with the intention of letting all that, they are all their emotions, all their thoughts, all their feelings, even if they're about you into you, it's a very different experience. This is what I wanted to do with Jasmine on a physical level and emotional level on every level. And so, we were doing this honesty, like really talking to each other and laying things out. And I was there and I was like, look, if you're mad, just be mad, I want that to like, let that come out as well. And to be there because I wanted to be there to celebrate her life. And as the time went on, as I was looking at it, there was no other person I wanted to be with. And the decision to stay, just like her decision to stay came out of, this is something that we want. [10:29.2]
And what had to happen though, was a change in the way we interacted and how we spend a time, the way we talking with each other, the kinds of conversations we have and how one person is no longer looking at the other person as a problem, something that needs to be fixed. And we're not this isn't like, Oh, we developed this strategy and it's working for us. This is like, literally neither of us know what to do, but we're showing up naked in all ways like figuratively, emotionally, symbolically, like you name it because neither of us have, have really become one before. And I would submit that probably you and your wife, hasn't been the psychologist. You're listened to having done the people who are writing books, probably haven't, you know, maybe there are a few out there, but most of them haven't become one either. They're still individuals coping with each other on some level of toleration and even if they found a way to make it work, have they really become one? [11:22.5]
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So, let's jump over to some old stories of becoming one, shall we? In India, there is some talk of certain people whose, who were so energetically devoted to each other, that they're there, that their energies were linked over the course of many lifetimes of reincarnation. Now, in for instance, the LDS or Mormon religion, the idea of being married for all time and eternity, that's also a strain there. So, there are stories around of people who, for whatever reason, whether it's master and disciple, whether it's husband and wife or whatnot, they have joined with each other, they've become so intertwined that they're essentially the same person. And so, this was a possibility for me. And I had studied some things and looked around trying to find some understanding of how that worked. And there's a story of a, of a Sage in India who was so devoted, not to a wife, not to a person, but to a deity, a certain energetic form, you know, in case to in stone or whatever. I don't remember exactly all the details of it, but was so devoted to this deity that he had basically merged. They were one in the same that when you're talking about him, you're talking about the other and so on and so forth. [13:00.6]
And so here, here they were, and this man would do all of his poojas meaning his prayers and his rights of devotion and stuff during the day. And at a certain point in time and night, he would sit there and people would come to him for advice, and they would come to him for whatever else. And they would bring as a gift, his favorite, which was some form of alcohol. And he would just guzzle this alcohol to no ones, no end guzzle, guzzle, guzzle. He would just down the whole bottle right away and never inebriated, never drunk, but he would just drink this stuff straight. And he lived to a good ripe old age, no like complications from it or anything else from what I remember and just an incredible, weird kind of scenario. And he would give the people this advice and whatnot, and they'd go in their lives, would change and things would happen. And so, he was this very revered Saint. Well, he had some son, a son and teenage friends that were like, Oh, well, dad does this. And so, they decided they wanted to do the same thing cause it's okay. And so, they'd go drink the alcohol and stuff. And they developed all kinds of problems from it. I can't remember if one of them died from it or anything else, but all kinds of problems in it because they were missing the other half of the equation, which was this man had in some bizarre way or new way or unheard-of way or miraculous way, or however you want to think about it joined himself and his energies and he's being to that, of this deity or this thing that he worshiped. [14:23.6]
And so, all the alcohol and all the effects of it were actually being absorbed by the other person by the other thing and so, he wasn't suffering that at all. And as he was drinking the wine or the brandy or whatever it was, it was just not affecting him because all of the effects of it were going into the other thing. Does this define modern physics? Sure. Can we just look at it as a fairytale? Sure. However, you want to think about it. What I want you to note is that my brain is interested in possibilities, not in limitations. I think a lot of scientists well, let me put this, a lot of amateur scientists are interested in limitations. A lot of people think they understand science and run around telling people what's not possible. And they think that they know something, but you can never declare what's not possible. You can only declare that you don't think it's possible because the only way to declare it's not possible is to have tried all possible ways of doing it, most of what you haven't invented yet. [15:15.5]
You can never declare that that's a metaphysical statement. It's not a physical science statement. That's a, that's a philosophy, not a conclusion, not a, not an actual observation. And so, I'm interested in possibility. So, I'm listening to this and I start thinking about Jasmine. And I start considering that, like, if we really did become one, then that means that all of the benefits of everything that I've done, she's benefiting from as well. She's absorbing all of my own meditative practices and my breath work, and she doesn't have to do any of it. She's gets to benefit from it. And I'm absorbing all the benefits that she gets from her church practices and going to church and reading her scriptures and praying and all that stuff that automatically, it's automatically being absorbed into me because there is no boundary. There's no way to keep it out. And that as this is happening, even the stuff that might be happening to me negatively, she now absorbed some of it. And I now absorbed some of hers. And now there's more strength because there's two of us handling each individual thing instead of one thing together. And this concept really caught hold of me. [16:17.8]
And over the days that followed, we started experiencing some of this at least on some minor level where I might go through a little bit of a trough or a sense of fear or worry that she might leave. And she would feel that and we'll be like, I don't know why I'm feeling this weird thing what's going on. And then she'd be like, well, how are you doing? And I'd tell her. And she's like, Oh, okay. That's from you. And like, both of us are shouldering the brunt of it, and it's created a different level of care. I don't want to see her angry both because it’s her suffering and because it's also me suffering. I don't want to see her upset or sad because she's me. The idea of treating your neighbor as yourself to loving your neighbor as yourself has taken on a whole different meaning because it's no longer a separate being. They are myself. Now, I don't know if we've achieved this in some amazing, magical way, energetically or spiritually or not, maybe I would know if that were the case. And so, it's probably not the case, but it's something that I've been really pondering and thinking about how many relationships are built on mutual toleration are built on I'm okay with this, I'm okay with that. We compromise neither of us get what gets, what we want all the way, cause we're giving up for the other person. And it's this two people working together on a team. [17:32.6]
And I'm talking about a totally different way of being where it's not about teamwork. You're just one being and you happen to have two bodies, which is a funny thing to think about. But a really that's what I'm talking about becoming one. Now, if you are a Christian at all and or you're a Yogi or anybody else, and you're striving for oneness in the same vein to become one with God is the same thing. When you're truly one, then God absorbs all of the negative and the positive from your life. And you observed all of that from God. Like you really, it really just changes and renews everything about you. To become one, you cannot have a boundary. You cannot have a keep out sign. The other person really gets to dance by all of them to pick them up, to shoot him down with a, with a shotgun or two to do acrobatics over it or to kiss it away or whatever they want to do. But you cannot have a seat. I keep outside if you want to become one. And that means being willing to show up a hundred percent vulnerable, showing them everything that you are, all the things you are afraid they would find out and laying it all down and seeing if they're willing to walk with you anyway. [18:45.1]
And in some amazing, magical way, it feels to me like marriage, when done, at least the way I'm thinking about it now and feeling it now is everyone's opportunity. It is the best, most transformative healing I've ever experienced in my life. And I've been through a lot of stuff to be able to be 100% honest with my wife, and her, with me to lay it all down and did not require that they be any different and to accept them wholly for what they are and to let all of that into me and for her to let all of me into her life with acceptance and with love and she's allowed to react however, she wants. And for us to both be there just with acceptance and love, that is the opportunity to start your life fresh, but this time consciously. So, whatever may have happened to your engine childhood, whatever traumas may have occurred, marriage ultimately can be, if you operate with it in a certain way, one of the most powerful healing experiences on the planet, better than any of the psychedelics I've ever tried, better than most of the other things I've done. And there's only a couple of things that even come close to rivaling the kind of healing and transformation that has occurred. [19:57.8]
Now, what kind of healing and transformation has occurred? Let me give you a couple of examples. One, a couple days into our adventure, Jasmine was having some pains in her legs. So, I started massaging her leg, then asked if she needed some support anywhere else. And she mentioned her neck and whatnot, and she had been quiet the whole time and then she just, she said, this remark, she said, your hands feel different. I said, what do you mean? She said, you've always had a really strong, like iron grip in your hands, and that strength still feels like it's there, but your hands feel like soft and like baby hands, like they're just gentleness and care in them, and they just feel radically different. And I had felt some difference in me. It was cool to hear her say that, that the hands are different. Couple of days later, go by, we're looking at this. And this is all within the course of the first week, right. And I'm looking her and we like the kinds of experiences we've been having together, physically, mentally, emotionally conversationally, all these things. I looked at her and I was like, Jasmine, you really feel like a, totally like a brand-new person, like someone totally different. I mean, you're still Jasmine, but you're like different. And she said, yeah, you feel like a different person too. [21:05.1]
And the two of us have felt still since then, like newlyweds, like we're brand new at this whole thing. And after 17 years, we finally got the chance to meet the person that we had wanted to marry because we were willing to be honest, willing to lay it all down and willing finally, to stop putting, keep out signs. I thought I was protecting Jasmine by keeping her out of my life. The one person I had promised to go to for everything. The one person I had promised to run toward and not away from was the purpose person I was running away from. In an attempt to protect her, I was keeping her out. That's not oneness, that's not marriage. It's no wonder, we felt like we wouldn't do it again. And now for the first time in a long time, I think probably in our entire marriage, we're both like, yeah, but I don't want it to go away anymore. Like I really want to keep what's here instead of being like, well, yeah, well, like if it goes away or if he dies or she dies or whatever, I'll be fine on my own now it's like, but I don't want them to. Both of us have this and I don't know what it'll come from here because there are no guarantees. But both of us have a very different feeling about it, precisely because we've shown up and we've gotten rid of all the keep out signs gently, slowly, not as one rip off the band aid. Some things, yes, because of the way that I handled things, we had some big stuff, but slowly, gently, easily opening up and saying, this is what I'm afraid of here. And this is where I'm at and it's not about you at all. This is just something that came up for me. [22:38.2]
And then her sharing back and forth to where now, 17 years in almost where it's like, we just got married again, only we happen to have six kids, which, you know, probably not always the ideal way to start a marriage, but it's like, we just got married again. And it's like, there's a whole new possibility for life. And it's like, it feels to me like all of my desires around chasing spirituality and all these other places just evaporated so quickly because I realized that her Jasmine is also one of the most fulfilling paths to that kind of union and that kind of spiritual achievement. And every part of my life is parenting is, and the things I do in meditation and breathing and breathing and movement and stuff are, and they're absolutely beautiful. And all this time, I thought that family had been a hindrance that Jasmine had been a hindrance that I was a problem that I had to go fix. And all of that vanishes when I stand before her and she accepts me anyway, and I'm no longer the problem and I deserve happiness and she does too. And she's not the problem. It's just that we made a cruddy situation. And now we're both willing to put down the, keep out signs and finally become one. [23:51.0]
So, in your life, not in every relationship, is this valuable, right? The person at the grocery store, doesn't, doesn't necessarily need to know everything about your life. But in your life, whether it's with God and the universe, or whether it's with your spouse, when you're seeking true relationship and really to experience what it's like to dissolve into the other person and no longer have to defend who you are or be something, but you can just simply be, if you want to experience becoming one, I'll suggest to you just based on my own experience. And some of it was exceptionally painful and I had to learn the hard way, that anytime you have a key outside, anytime you set a boundary, you're actually preventing yourself from experiencing one of the greatest joys and some of the most profound healing that is possible on the planet. [24:41.3]
Yes, boundaries are wise in certain things for survival. If you didn't have boundaries, you would just like, yourself, didn't have boundaries, you would just be a pile of goop. So yes, boundaries are needed for physical survival, but they aren't needed in relationship. And that is a place where you might find the most deeply fulfilling experiences of your life. If you're willing finally, with all the terror about it, to start taking off the, keep out signs, to getting rid of the no soliciting and the no trespassing and to regretted the guard dogs and the electrical wires and all the fences that you've placed around your heart and letting them see for real and for true all the things you're afraid of, all the things you love, all the things you hope for, all the things that you judge yourself for, or are worried that they might dismiss and be rejected for. And if they're willing to do the same, it's such a beautiful experience. And I would wish it for everyone. So, if that's what you're after start looking at where you've put up the keep out signs, maybe have them listen to this podcast, if it's helpful so that you have the same place to start from. And then gently, slowly, and whatever pace feels right to you start taking them down so that you can see into each other's soul and really glimpse the glory of what a person's, a human being really all about. [25:55.0]
And that's it for todays “Alive and Free Podcast.” If you enjoyed this show and want some more freedom bombs landing in your ear buds, subscribe right now at wherever you get your podcasts from. And, while you're at it, give us a rating and a review. It'll help us keep delivering great stuff to you. Plus, it's just nice to be nice. [26:13.4]
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