Hey chiropractors, we're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.
Kevin: Hey docs, welcome to another episode of the Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show. This is your host Dr. Kevin Christie and today I've got a guest on. I've got Jonathan Rivera, JR. He is from The Podcast Factory. If you've listened to the end of these episodes you'll hear that The Podcast Factory produces this podcast. I brought them on in the middle of this year to really take it to the next step, and so it's not just a podcast production that they do for me, he really helps coach me on this, and he's one of my three coaches. I think some people find that hard to believe that I have three coaches at this point. One is Strategic Coach, which is my entrepreneur coaching group, two is Christine Odell who is my, kind of a business coach, business manager, and then JR, they are my podcast coach. Even the episode that you're going to hear today, we'll critique that together and see how I'm doing and trying to get better at this. It's always something that I'm trying to improve on. [0:01:24.2]
I've had other types of coaches in the past. I think everybody should have a coach. I know that I've benefited greatly from it, I invest heavily in it and I say "invest" not "spend" because it is an investment in myself, and always trying to improve, because I know that's a never ending process. So coaching is something that I think everybody should look into. It's been interesting because I've actually become a coach this year and I'm working with quite a few chiropractors now, and it's fun being a coach, it's fun being coached. I get a lot out of it, I like hearing it the way it should be and objective advice and I'm not left on an island. So JR provides that for me from the podcasting realm. As you're going to hear, he's a very good communicator, tells it how it is and has done well because of that. [0:02:17.4]
We're going to really discuss two main topics in this episode, and that's going to be direct response marketing which is something you need to learn, okay, it's really going to be effective in your marketing strategy, and the second thing we talk about is communication and we kind of tie the two in together, so I really enjoyed this episode and got a lot out of it. It's short and sweet, nice 30 minutes like we usually do, could have gone on for probably two hours, but we'll have him on for another episode as well.
It's interesting and we talk about it in this particular episode, but we've connected through Strategic Coach, but it was deeper than that few years ago through like some of the direct response podcasting he was doing, that's how I actually initially got involved and then I kind of trickled down that the life cycle of becoming first time listener to a client. [0:03:09.9]
That's what we're going talk about, that's how you can do direct response marketing in your community and how you can get a lot of good results from it. I highly recommend listening to this episode and he gives a couple things that you can do, kind of take home things that I can't recommend enough, it's just really going to be useful for you to do this for your practice and for your patient base. So I hope you enjoy this, I enjoyed getting to interview someone that's been coaching me and trying to get me better, so I appreciate that opportunity as well. So enjoy, and I'll talk to you next week.
Kevin: Alright, welcome to the show, JR. Appreciate you coming on. We've had a lot of fun together this last year as far as Strategic Coach and then brought you on to not only kind of coach me on the podcasting side of things, but also the production side of it as well. I want to thank you for that, but before we dive into some of the fun stuff, just introduce yourself to our audience. [0:04:06.4]
Jonathan: Man, I don't even know where to begin. I'm going to tell you my whole life story and bore you to tears and then you'll listen to the rest of the episode, so instead of doing that, what I'm going to say is thank you for having me on the show. I'm a fan and student of direct response marketing and I think that's actually how we met, because you knew me before we ever met, because I was on a show with a guy that was having direct response. Dude, really, I'm just here to help out wherever I can, so I'm hoping to have a fun conversation and I'm hoping that one or two things will light a spark inside the listeners so that they can do better marketing or be better people or be more handsome. Whatever.
Kevin: Well that's the thing when I first met you in person at Strategic Coach I was jealous, I think you were the one person in the room that had better hair than I did. [0:05:00.4]
Jonathan: Thank you, thank you.
Kevin: I was a little hair envy for sure, but I'm going to have you define in a minute what direct response is, but yeah, I want to just touch base. I was diving into that pretty hard three, four years ago just trying to understand it and how I could apply it to, say, health care practice and such, and there is a podcast that you were helping with, and assisting, and a guest on and producing and all that, and really dove into that particular podcast quite a bit, learned a lot, and then as funny as it was, we ended up sitting next to each other at a Strategic Coach meeting when I had moved from my Chicago group to the Atlantic group, so that's how we connected. Our audience is chiropractors they're not necessarily marketing experts, they're trying to become marketing efficient for their practice and stuff, but what is direct response marketing?
Jonathan: Alright. So I want you guys to just close your eyes. Well if you're driving don't close your eyes. But I want you to think of Coca-Cola, of Apple, or Pepsi. [0:06:11.5]
Think about their marketing, and that's the exact opposite of what we do. Everybody want's to be doing them branding campaigns and getting their name out there, and us as direct response marketers, we don't want to get our name out there, we want to get their names in here, into our database, into our world, into a place where we can control the flow of messaging. What happens is, most people in marketing is brand and image based advertising. For us marketing is a function of creating opportunities and creating sales, and how that happens is by thinking of your marketing as a tool to get the person out there who should be your client to come over here and become your client, and we do that by thinking of what they see, what they hear, what they feel, what steps they need to take and we pre-plan the journey before we put any marketing out there of what steps they're going to take from out there to in here and being your client. Does that make sense? [0:07:21.1]
Kevin: Makes perfect sense, and it's basically trying to get them to become, for our perspective, best case scenario is become a patient, obviously. But even you could just, if you got them on your email list. Right? That would be a good step in that path that you're talking about.
Jonathan: That's one of the steps, because what we do, and I'm specifically in the content space and podcasting space, but the first step is to get attention, and the way you get attention is by knowing who you're speaking to, and when you know who you're speaking to and you know what ails them, what symptoms they're feeling, what pain they're feeling, you can grab their attention, but attention is fleeting. What do you do with that attention? So for us, attention equals listening to a show, getting on an email list, getting a couple emails and booking an appointment, ending up in your office, filling out forms and getting adjusted. That's the process, we look at it as an entire process from getting attention to actually turning them, as you said, I call them clients, turning them into patients. [0:08:25.3]
Jonathan: I think if it makes sense, because a lot of times what ends up happening from a chiropractor's purchase perspective, especially the ones that maybe are struggling, they're really trying to get people in the door as quickly as possible, but they forget about the steps or the process that it may take that person to want to hear about them and then obviously go down that path and become a patient. It can take time, kind of like dating, right? And so you've got to lay out what that patient process looks like from A to Z, I guess, and I don't think enough chiropractors are doing that. [0:09:01.6]
Jonathan: Yeah. The thing that most people are looking at, and this is in business, this is in medicine, this is everywhere, it's universal, is can I trust this person, do I respect this person and do I believe they can get me the results I'm looking for. And you can do all that, most times you can't take them through that whole process in one step, so you have to lay out one step, two steps, three steps, four steps. For instance I do this very same thing with my apartments. And I have ads out on Craigslist and that go out on Google and they just talk about certain symptoms, certain pain points, "Hey, tired of your landlord raising your rent all the time? Tired of waiting for repairs?" Those are little things that get their attention, but that's only good enough to get them to read my ad. Then I've got a video sales letter where I'm hitting more angles. "You don't need a lot of money to move in, you don't need great credit to move in." so hitting more pain points, but I'm just knocking out objection after objection. [0:10:05.4]
So they watch that, they're like, "Yeah, I like this guy." they opt into my email list, I offer them a coupon, and that's something that your listeners out there could easily replicate, it's like, "Here's a coupon for free adjustment." or something. I don't know if it has to be that, but just giving you ideas. Then they get on the email list, they got the coupon, they're still not going to call me. I got to give them reasons to call me, so now I have an email autoresponder, knocking out more objections, telling them about our "keep your money program" and our "lightning approval". I just keep on knocking out objections over time to get them to call me, and you got to know the cycle. Your business is going to be different to mine. When somebody's looking for an apartment, they're looking within two weeks, so I hammer them for two weeks. When somebody is looking for relief from their back pain, they might be looking right now so you might be able to convert people quicker, but you have to know what that cycle looks like and prepare for it.
Kevin: And I like what you mentioned. So the chiropractors out there, they should list out what all of the objectives could be and start to figure out how you could address those, and that would be part of your marketing process, I assume. [0:11:10.6]
Jonathan: Absolutely we and at The Podcast Factory, because I have two businesses. I have The Podcast Factory, I have my real estate business. At The Podcast Factory we call that the content vault. The content vault is 8 to 12 pieces of evergreen content that knock out the most common objections your market has. Most of us are trying to get clients on the phone, so we have to do phone sales, and phone sales are ugly when you have to explain who you are and what you do. Instead of doing that, you set up a process where you're indoctrinating people through pieces of content that knock out those common objections so that when they show up they're asking the right questions. "How do we work together? How much does it cost? When can we get started?"
Kevin: And if you happen to be in network with insurances, that could be a great thing to highlight that solves a problem, because some people are going to be concerned with cost of health care, and if you can object, you know, you can meet that objection with the fact that you're in network with it. That's one less barrier for them to enter into. [0:12:13.4]
Jonathan: Right. And you have a list of these already, you take them for granted but you're repeating yourself over and over and over again, and what we're talking about here in marketing, in direct response, in podcasting, in content is take those conversations that you keep having over and over again, create content around them and deploy that content, it becomes an asset or you. Deploy it to get people ready, get those objections handled, and get them online in line so they're doing business with you with very little resistance.
Kevin: I think it's a great idea. You know, I think if you sat down after just even listening to this episode with that idea and you just started to list out all of the things that a patient deals with, or a prospective patient deals with, all those friction points, you wrote it out and then shoot a video or write out written format, whatever it is, that there's solution to that, how you as a provider really solves that, then you can start to use it in your marketing and it doesn't have to be just a condition based things, it can be things like time and efficiency, schedule same day appointments. [0:13:27.6]
Whatever it has... Because there's a lot of things that are broken in the health care system. There's a lot of people getting hurt and they call an orthopedic office and they're like, "We can get you in in three weeks." "Well I'm not going to need you in three weeks." So maybe as a chiropractor you can get them in that day, so maybe that's something you highlight and you have a nice little campaign around that type of information.
Jonathan: That's a point of differentiation. "Everybody else is making you wait three weeks, we don't. We know your back hurts now." Boom, you're standing out.
Jonathan: I think chiropractor profession it's an interesting place right now, we're getting a lot more credibility, we're still fighting some uphill battles for sure, but we tend to give a better experience to our patients, we tend to spend more time with them. [0:14:10.9]
There's a lot of benefits that we have that they're not getting from their primary cares and their urgent cares and their orthopedists, so I think we need to start spotlighting that in our community, and you mix it in with other valuable content, that's why I wanted to, part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show too is because I think some people that may hear the direct response marketing term, and if they have any background in say copywriting, they may think that you're just only trying to write cleverly to convince people to take an action, whereas you mix in a lot of good direct response copy with really good content, like useful content and you combine the two to get the results. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Jonathan: Yeah, you're absolutely not going to convince anybody to take an action on any timeline. Everybody is on their own timeline, and what we need to understand as a marketer, is that they could be anywhere in their timeline. [0:15:13.7]
So they can be where they're thinking about hiring someone, or coming into the office, or they could be, "My back is hurting and I need something right now." And so you've got to think about all those spots where they can come in and create that journey for them. This is what I'm talking about, is if you were to simply take some time, just get out of the office if you can if you're not all booked up, if you are, then that's a good problem to have and you probably don't need us, so stop listening right, now but take an hour out and map all of that. What are the different symptoms, what are the things that people complain to you about, what are the things that bring them into the office? [0:16:01.1]
You're going to see a bunch of opportunity to create content, create awareness, create action along the timeline. You map that out ahead of time and start creating content around it before you need it, I think this is one of the good things, is if you're smart and you get ahead of this you can create 8, 10, 12 pieces of continent and knock out objections before you need it, and then you start deploying it. Whether you're deploying it in your marketing as far as ads, going out to the public, whether you're deploying it in a pamphlet that's inside your office while they're in your waiting room, or whether you're talking about these things when you are in a consultation with them, you plan out this journey ahead of time, you meet people where they are and then you bring them where you want to be, but you can't make them take action, all you can do is set a path and let them walk it.
Kevin: Yeah, and you can even have your staff trained on it, like the ones that are answering the phones, have them trained on that information to be able to address those concerns and highlight the benefits that you've got in your practice. [0:17:03.8]
You can also, I think, take certain different... Chiropractor's going to have multiple audiences, it's not going be just one. So for instance in my practice we, in the state of Florida personal injury does pay pretty well, it actually pays very well, but what that's lend itself to is a lot of corruption in it, so a lot of, I just take my profession, attorneys do it, other doctors and all that, but chiropractors, notoriously in Florida have kind of bent the rules, I'll say it kindly, around that and there's been a lot of, basically a racket around the whole situation. But there's a lot of chiropractors doing it the right way, and so that's what we do. We do everything the right way, we try to give our auto accident patient same experience as a regular, even if it's one of our professional athletes and we want the same experience and we don't want the whole rigamarole, and we guide them to an actual path that's going to get them better without dealing with all the crap that's out there. [0:18:02.3]
So we've done some emails and we've done some videos around that kind of spotlighting, you know, what's going on out there without naming names, and what we try to do to make that experience for them something that's worthwhile. So that's just an example where I took one particular audience that's maybe one of our six different types of audience and we really wrote out the pain points of that person dealing with the auto accident and addressed it, so I think the chiropractor needs to sit down with maybe some a few of their avatars and do that.
Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. Here's another tip that might help you guys. Even if you have already sat down and created that avatar, it's highly likely you did it years ago and that avatar has evolved, and if you haven't gone back and revisited and just reviewed what has changed, it's a good time to go do it. I believe this so much now, Kevin, that I actually go back and revisit, his name is Joe, he's my avatar and I go back every 90 days, the top of the quarter and I spend some time seeing if anything has changed with Joe. You know this because you're guy that that's into getting better and growing, you're not the same guy you were last year, so why should your avatar be? [0:19:28.2]
Kevin: That's a good point. I didn't think about that. That's a really good point. And things change too in your practice, definitely can evolve.
Jonathan: Right, right. You're changing how you deliver or who you deliver for, so you go back with new eyes. I go back every 90 days, sometimes there's nothing in 90 days but it's a good review, a lot of times I'm like, "Well this isn't right, and now they're having these problems, and maybe I should talk to this." and I come back talking a language that my new Joe, updated Joe, evolved Joe understands better. [0:19:59.5]
Kevin: That's perfect, good stuff. I want to transition just a little bit, it's on the topic but off the topic a little bit. You're someone that strikes me is a good communicator. Obviously I've gotten to have dinner with you and got to know you and your wife.
Jonathan: It was the drinks.
Kevin: We spent time in our Strategic Coach workshop together, obviously we have some coaching calls together and stuff too. Have you always been good at communication or is it something that you've worked on, and if you've worked on it and got better at it, what are some recommendations you have for chiropractors? Because I think a lot of them are struggling with the communications side of things, and I think it's something they need to address.
Jonathan: Kevin, I love this question and I'm going to tell you why. This morning I was on my way to breakfast with Cupcake and Huddy before I came over here to the studio because I knew I was going to be speaking with you, and I had this one client messaging me, and you know this and it's not just that I do this for just one client, I do it for all of you, but you have my text, you can hit me up if you're having trouble, I'm here for you because I care, believe it or not, but this guy's like putting up road blocks, he's already been three months, he hasn't recorded a podcast and I'm ready to choke him out. [0:21:16.3]
I am seriously like what the heck is going on here. He's struggling, he struggling with that confidence piece, just like you're saying many of the chiropractors out there are struggling with the confidence in their ability to communicate. And so I get on with him and I'm saying, "What's going on?" he's like, "This content doesn't resonate with me." I said, "I interviewed you, and this all came from your mouth. So if it doesn't resonate with you, there's a problem here. So what else is the problem?" "I have got this other stuff going on." and I said, "I think that you're afraid, and I think that you're procrastinating, and I think that I'm getting fed up with helping you because I've already invested a lot of time into you, and I expect to see something from my investment." even though the guy paid me, this is how I'm talking to him, so imagine, he got a little snippy with me. And so I'm like, "Listen dude, you're afraid and I get it." [0:22:17.8]
Because I've got a show, it's called Daddy's Working. You know that I've been podcasting for many, many years, but I've been a co-host. I have been kind of in the side seat riding shotgun and not hosting the show, but last year around this time since time I said it's time for me to get out there and do my own thing, because I need to speak my piece. I did Daddy's Working, and the first time... You're saying I'm a good communicator, bro, I sat in the booth and I'm trying to record a 15 minute podcast on a topic I know front and back and it took me 90 minutes. Lack of confidence, afraid to be out there on my own, worried about who would care about what I say, worried to sound like a moron. [0:23:02.8]
Look, I have 10 years of experience and if I feel that, then I understand how him or how anybody new could have that same problem, that same lack of confidence, that same imposter syndrome. So here's what I told him to do and here's what you guys can do. Sit down, set a timer for 33 minutes, got this from Eugene Schwartz, not my idea, it helped me with writing, but it can help you with communicating in general. Sit down, set a timer, 33 minutes and record or write or whatever it is that you're going to. Create. Okay, 33 minutes create. It's going to be crap and you're going to hate it. Whatever you make it going to disgust you, but you made something and that's progress. And the next time you come back, and I don't mean like next time next year, I mean set another time or after you take a five minute break, 33 minutes, create some more crap and you going to keep creating crap back to back till you start feeling confident about it. [0:24:04.4]
My first few shows on Daddy's Working, I hated them and I hated the process, and I couldn't believe it would take me so long. Now I can flow, and this is a guy with experience. So if you don't have any experience, it's like super hard, I get it, but the only way to get through that is to practice. That's all there is to it.
Kevin: Yeah, it takes time. I think a chiropractor can take that advice you just gave and specifically that 33 minutes tactic and just apply it to everything from your patient report findings when you sit down in front of that patient and really communicate well with them on what they have. I've actually chatted with chiropractors that have read the book The StoryBrand, I know you're certified, I believe. I told them, you could story brand the report of findings and then talk to them about, it's about them. Historically chiropractors have made themselves or their technique or their practice the hero, so you kind of re-frame that obviously, and not to get into the StoryBrand weeds, but you could do the 33 minutes thing with that report of findings, you could do it with shooting videos because a lot of chiropracors, they're getting into shooting videos, but there are so reluctant. [0:25:17.6]
Like you just said with that guy podcasting, like they're so scared of it, they don't do it. So you could do with a video, you could do it with your emails in writing. Like there's a lot of different communication aspects that we have to do as chiropractors, if you're going to be effective, then you need to do that on, even public speaking as well. So I appreciate that advice that was really goods.
Jonathan: I'm not StoryBrand certified for the record so Donald Miller doesn't come after me.
Kevin: Schooled.
Jonathan: I bought the StoryBrand course almost one year ago today. When we met I was really deeply into it, and in fact I am still training my writers on StoryBrand, and the way we look at it, and maybe this'll be helpful for your listeners, is our client, our patient, they're the hero story. [0:26:15.3]
They're always the hero. Us as the professionals, as the experts, we're the guides. We help them get to whatever their heroic journey is, and our process, so that's your process in the office, or for us it's our show notes and our ability to tell a story, that, that's the road map. So if you look at your process as a road map, you being the guide and your patient being the hero, you're going to get a whole lot of attention out of that and you're going to put the focus on who it belongs. It's going to be your patient, that's where the focus belongs.
Kevin: Perfect. I love it. I appreciate that information, and I think it ties in well with the direct response, it's getting really clear on what you expect them to take that next step or how to take that next step, and then communicating that effectively, and then just producing really good content that is useful to your community and you'll start to see the growth happen. [0:27:16.9]
It can take some time, I mean think about it, I was listening to the podcast that you were on probably 2015, so that would have been like the first time I probably heard you on that, and then just kind of went from there. I mean there's a couple podcasts, two different ones, and then lo and behold we run into each other and then I consumed your content a little bit more after that, before I even decided to jump on board, but one of the things that really sealed the deal was that once I got to know you in person your communication was really good, and that really kind of got me over the tipping point. So how do you relate that to a chiropractor. If you're doing a good combination of online marketing and getting out in the community, some of these people are going to see you online first, and then if they happen to go to a talk that you give in the community, then that could seal the deal. Right? Or vice versa. So it all works together, but it can take some time. I don't think it takes as much time to get a patient in the door than it does maybe a higher dollar amount type of client. Right? [0:28:20.7]
Jonathan: It's an ecosystem. I want to just go back to something you said, because it's a challenge. You said create good content. And I know that some of you out there are like, "Well what is good content? What does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it feel like?" Good content, you don't even have to create good content, you just have to create content that connects with a certain person. That's really what makes content good, when that person, remember, they're the hero, when they see your content and they're like, "This guy can help me get to where ever I want to be. This guy is going to empower me." That's what makes it good. [0:29:02.6]
And the way it gets good is by you understanding who you're talking to and what they want. So when you understand who you're talking to and what they want and you create ways to get their attention and show them that you are the beacon of light, you're the guide, you can show them, you incorporate that into everything. So what I love about businesses, especially brick and mortar businesses is that it I believe that it's easier for you to make this big impact, because once you know who you're talking to, once you know what you're saying, once you know what you want them to do you can create everything around that. So yeah, you can create a Facebook ad, great, you can create a group, awesome, you can create a local event and all the messaging is the same. It's just reinforcing the story, reinforcing that they're the hero, reinforcing that you're the guide and you have the roadmap to get them to where they want to be.
Kevin: I love it, I'm glad you said "reinforcing", because once they can get clear on that messaging and all those pain points, then is just reinforcing, reinforcing, reinforcing and then you'll start to get the kind of that fly wheel effect. Right? [0:30:11.6]
Jonathan: Yeah. Fly wheel, I love it. Yeah, that's exactly it, once you get clear on all of that, then it's like repeat, repeat, repeat.
Kevin: Absolutely. Well listen, I don't want to take up too much of your time, I know you're busy. I'm looking forward to getting on a coaching call with you to critique my interview skills and you can tell me how it is, that's the one thing I love about working with you, is you tell us how it is. That's the only way to improve, and so I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your time today.
Jonathan: Bro, it went so quickly. I hope we were helpful, and thanks again, man. It's always a pleasure speaking with you, Kevin.
Kevin: You too.
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