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In golf, business, and life there are statistics that hold the key to getting to the next level. The problem is determining the stats you need to track. Chase the wrong stats and you’ll never make any progress.

But what do you do when others in your field are more interested in protecting their sacred cows than improving?

In this episode, bestselling golf app developer Peter Sanders and I discuss the best stats to improve your golf game, a low-cost marketing strategy for explosive growth, and how you can revolutionize an industry even when gatekeepers try to keep you out.

Show highlights include:

  • How golf magazines make your game worse (3:15)
  • The surprising way thinking like an insurance analyst will level up your golf game (5:18)
  • How to put the “Tiger Woods Effect” in play to grow your business faster than you ever thought possible (9:46)
  • An essential advertising strategy that pays big dividends for the bootstrap entrepreneur (16:01)
  • Why “Negative Stats” hold the key to dramatic improvement in all areas from the back nine to the boardroom (21:42)

If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure you head on over to www.tapsandtees.info and download your free report of ‘No BS,’ game-changing marketing tips and strategies that show you how to blow up your brand online.

Read Full Transcript

You are listening to the Taps and Tees Show, weekly conversations for people passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino, an award-winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]

Marty: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Taps and Tees, and I know I've been teasing this for a while that we're going to get back to golf and beer after all the marketing stuff and with this whole pandemic, and we're finally starting to release all these craft beer as well as golf interviews. And it's going to be a little bit more lighthearted than talking about the hardcore marketing pieces that we were talking about over the past few months. And it's going to be fun and I'm looking forward to getting back to the, the essence of this podcast finally. And today I have a great guest really unique in my mind because I see him in a way, just in the brief conversations that we've had, like kind of like a little bit of a pioneer in digital, which is interesting in the golf world. Like he doesn't have 10 years’ experience within there and he's kind of a little bit more than that. [01:08.8]

And it's really interesting to hear as he laughs about that a little bit interesting to hear his path and how he got there. But my guest today is Peter Sanders, he has a company called Shot by Shot and he jumped out of the insurance industry to kind of move into the golf world and develop shot by shot way back in 1989. So when I sent a few more years than 10, you know, that's what we were talking to here and the interesting part about it and what I loved about it was when I took a look at what the product was and what, you know, what it does. I was like, okay, this is pretty cool because of a few things. And it's really analytical, you have a lot of neat little things there, but he's worked for a while and he's been in golf digest. He's worked with PGA tour professionals. He's done a whole host of things, I'll let him elaborate on. But without further ado, I will let Peter introduce himself now. So Peter, I heard you chuckle in there, so I know you're there. [02:09.0]

Peter: Yeah, yeah. Marty, that's very nice. Thank you for that introduction. I'm an avid golfer like you, and when I was fortunate enough to finally join a country club, which I couldn't do until my job and I knew I was going to be somewhere for a while. You know, you don't lay out a pretty good number to join a club and then the company goes up, we're moving you, so. I landed with my insurance reinsurance company in Greenwich and I was lucky enough to get into a very nice golf club there. And I decided that I wanted to learn to play the game and I wanted to be competitive. So I started keeping all the stats that you read about in golf digest: did you hit the fairways, did you hit the greens, how many putts, up and downs, but I found it useless and misleading and there was no comparative data other than the tour. [03:09.0]

And it was a bit depressing to find out that I needed to hit eight or nine more greens and regulation for a round. And I had no idea how to do that. So I, I leaned on the computer skills that I had, computer modeling skills that I had been exposed to in the insurance business, where I created models. I didn't touch the keys. I didn't do that. But I would say to someone that was touching the keys, let's create this algorithm and let's put in these variables and let's run it and then we do it. And then I'd say, well, now let's change it. This and that. And it worked, it worked really well. And I became very, very familiar with creating computer models and analyzing things. [03:59.2]

And I said to myself, shoot, I could do this for golf. I could create a computer model of how the game is played at scratch or par, and then have people compare each of their shots to starting value and the ending value against my model with the scratch player and calculate, where they are gaining or losing shots on each one? And it's now I call that strokes loss and saved, and it's now called strokes gained. So it's been a wonderful journey. I've been able to play golf all over the world. I've made so many good friends in the golf business and you know, here I am with shotbyshot.com. [04:48.5]

Marty: That's great. I think one of the interesting parts to me was talking about it from a, that standpoint where you had that idea and that concept in 1989, taking insurance background and, you know, not knowing specifically what you did there, but taking all those analytical skills and applying it to, you know, what, what became today, you know, and think that's way ahead of, in my mind where the golf industry always has. Like that was very forward thinking back then, in my opinion.

Peter: Yeah.

Marty: And it’s interesting…

Peter: I remember Carol Mann, go ahead. I'm sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt, but..

Marty: No no no.

Peter: I remember Carol Mann, you know, a Hall of Famer whom I met and she helped me get some players in the LPGA world to use, use my new revolutionary program. And she said to me over dinner one night, “Peter, what you're doing is fabulous, but it's so far ahead of your time, you're going to have to be really tough skinned and really hang in there until the golf world can catch up with that.” [05:58.3]

Marty: Hmm...hmm.

Peter: And she was right.

Marty: Yeah. I have the same feeling, just even jumping into the golf world in like 2011, 2012, and, you know, working with golf professionals, with marketing and some other pieces and how backwards, like the idea of technology and golf was. You know, talking about the advent of cell phones, smartphones, particularly, and you know, what the rules are and all that. And I'm like, well, things are going to have to change. And I had like a couple of conversations and I was like, well, you know, no, one's really looking to move that direction. And I'm like, well, we're going to have to, if you're going to grow the game, if you're going to do these things, because this is becoming a piece of, you know, it's like an attachment to most people and especially younger generation. So you're going to not have to like balance it out. And I've seen so many changes in the past six, seven, eight years, especially, and especially in the last two or three that, you know, it's embracing some of those things. [06:56.6]

I just remember US open at Marion and we had to like check our cell phones, right. And couldn't bring a cell phone onto the course. And there's part of me that loves that. Right. Part of me that loves that you're, you're in the moment, you know, as a player or as a patron, when you're going to watch an event and you're not distracting players. But then I'm also like, this is going to turn off a lot of young, younger kids and younger people because they're used to having it now, you know, in Marion, that was in 2013, so seven years ago, and I'm like, it's gotten to change and then slowly but surely over the next few years, it started to change pretty quickly. And you see a lot of different things on the course and you're right. You know, she sent the right thing to you that's way ahead of your time. So what were the biggest challenges at the beginning to get people to use it? I mean, obviously the data and everything is my opinion, pretty self-explanatory, but let's rewind time a little bit. What was the biggest frustration you had of trying to get this going? [07:56.6]

Peter: Yeah, before I answer that? I'll tell you a quick story, that your…

Marty: Go for it.

Peter: Your, your story about cell phones. I got through hook or by crook, I got to meet with Tiger’s agent and he really, really wanted what I had. And he wanted me to meet with Tiger at the U S open at Winged Foot because that's, you know, I'm, I'm in Connecticut, New York. So he got me passes for Winged Foot and he said, “When you get in a call me on my cell phone.”

Marty: Right

Peter: So I drive down, I go and park probably a mile and a half away from the, from the, you know, the actual entrance to the course. And then I walk all the way to the security and they told me I can't take myself only. So I have to walk all the way back to the car, wait in the car.

Marty: Ahhhh. [08:55.2]

Peter: And then go in. And so I go I'm frantic because we're supposed to be for lunch and, and I, I can see, I can't get within 30 yards of the clubhouse with perhaps I can admit

Marty: Okay.

Peter: And I can see Stiver and, and Tiger having lunch on the patio on the outside of the back of the back of the clubhouse. And I'm just part of a crowd. I started jumping up and down and waving my arms and going Mark, talking to her. And finally he's somebody pointed to him and pointed it to me. And they had me come in and, you know, we're at about five minutes left with Tiger and he had to go and warm up and then Mark Steinberg and I spent some time, but it was, it was really frustrating. And developing my app I had to get special dispensation from my board and golf committee to use the phone on the golf course

Marty: Hmm…hmm [09:59.0]

Peter: When I was trying

Marty: Yeah.

Peter: And so anyway, the biggest frustration was the myopia of the big people in the golf business that they're stuck on the old stats and especially the instructors. You know, the and I, you know, I, I remember having one of them, I went through it with him and he said, there's no way anybody's going to do this. This is stupid. And I said, see, that's not very nice. And that was the end of the meeting. So I ran into a brick wall and a couple of pros heard me speak and really embraced it. And once Tom Patrick, rival of you know..

Marty: Hmm…hmmm. [10:57.6]

Peter: A lot of time for food, cause he he got me LPGA players. He took me to the PGA show and introduced me to all his friends that were, you know, prominent instructors or young up and coming instructors. So I built and then Henry Brunch in Canada who heard me speak at one of Patrick's Cracker barrel events around the PGA show. And he invited me to go to Canada and he started using it. He specialized in juniors and he was the, he was the head of the Canadian national team. And he created all the feeder systems for the Canadian provinces that would then feed players to the, to the national level. And once he embraced it, I got, Oh my God, Canadians, you know come on over the instructors using shotbyshot [11:55.2]

Marty: That's awesome. Yeah. I envision you at Winged Foot jumping up and down, had to be a scene. I mean, nowadays I don't even know what they would do with you, you know? I mean, cause what was that 2002.

Peter: I know.

Marty: Or is that earlier than that?

Peter: I’m bad at names and days

Marty: That’s fine.

Peter: But it was a while ago, it was a….

Marty: It's okay. We'll look it up later. But I couldn’t remember which day I was just thinking about Winged Foot I was watching something this morning and it was about Phil Mickelson and then obviously he's on the playing his first senior tour event, which he lit it up yesterday. But it was funny because..

Peter: oh.

Marty: I was just thinking about like, okay, I'm envisioning Peter jumping up and down, waving his arms at, you know, Steinberg and the biggest golfer on the planet, now and then, right? It was like man

Peter: Yeah.

Marty: You didn't get arrested.

Peter: Yeah. [12:50.3]

Marty: But no its amusing, in the first conversation we had a couple of weeks ago, I can relate to that. Like I got called on by just putting feelers out there into the golf world because I was so interested in, I saw them golfing, you know, daily fee courses and even country clubs, like just mismanaging their digital media. So I was like, I can help you guys. And I know the golf world enough that, you know, I can help you at least bleeding and what you're doing just seems absurd. And you know, it was like, I wouldn't say we were, I was laughed out of the room, but it was pretty close. You know, where I was just trying to be helpful. I wasn't necessarily trying to gain their business. I was like, you realize like, there's better ways to do this digital stuff than what you're doing and it can help you. It can bring people that maybe intimidated to come play golf for the first time and you can help explain it just by using some things on the internet to, you know, bring, bring that out. Because you know, even today I talked to people they're like, yeah, I always wanted to get into playing golf and I'm like, just go out. [13:59.9]

You know, and they're like, well, you know, I'm worried about slowing down somebody play and I'm like, look, most people, unless they're just not a nice person they're going to understand that. Just like, just talk to them like, Hey, it's one of my first times, but the digital piece, I always thought would be a good bridge to that. And it's really nice until like we said recently, so your struggles must've been immense; let's fast forward just a little bit. And you know, you know, cell phones are now out there and then you have more, has it been easier, you know, five, six years for you to kind of grow Shot by Shot a little bit where people even more embracing, I mean, you have what like a 38,000 individuals subscribers and 200 group leaders. So you have a good footprint, but you know, how has that been over the last few years for you? [14:48.1]

Peter: Ya better. The business has grown; it's only my inability to get it out there. You know what this is a bootstrap, this entire thing with my own money and my sweet wife who put up with all this. So it's, you know, I can't pay for advertising those kinds of things, but, but word of mouth has done pretty well. And, and my, my response to Google search and the articles that I write has fueled the random visitors is what I call the, you know, they know the golfers, the regular golfers that sign up online for it. So it grows and grows.

Marty: Yeah, well that’s good.

Peter: I’m looking for your help; I’m looking for your help to put a big, big bounce in that. [15:39.9]

Marty: We’ll, we'll, we'll, talk about that later, but I yeah, I think, you know, the bootstrap concept is how I started every business that I've been involved in and you learn a lot more in my opinion. And sometimes it's a struggle. Don't get me wrong. Like, yeah, I would love to have unlimited capital and to go do whatever, but you do learn and you learn sometimes not at the pace you want, you want it to be faster. The things that you learn within there usually make it a much steadier, much rock, solid type product, whether it's digital or physical. And I think that's really cool that you can get it by word of mouth to grow that much. I think that's an amazing thing. And I've been all over the internet, searching for golf products, people, everything. And I didn't learn of yours until just a few weeks ago. And it was one of the more unique things I saw. And I'm like, this is interesting. Like this is neat to me and I think a lot more people need to know about it, which is why we're talking. [16:42.7]

Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsAndTees.info and get our free report with game-changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan. [16:55.9]

Marty: Explain to everybody what Shot by Shot does. Like I go to shotbyshot.com. What do I do as a golfer?

Peter: Well, you learn a simple data recording system of the data that we asked for and of all the newcomers in those shows gain business because of my 30 years of experience. We've honed it down. We're less than 50% of most of the new that they have to get every shot, every distance of every, and nobody really wants to do that.

Marty: No.

Peter: So we've dramatically reduced the amount of work on the part of the players and we have easy apps, they do it. So a subscriber, well, first of all, there's a free trial. So anyone can go on the website, sign up for the free trial, enter and analyze around. So they see exactly what they're going to get for what they do and for what it costs. [17:53.7]

And then they, they start entering their, their data and getting the analysis and, and, you know, we call it a complete strokes gained analysis. So we can, we get, they get back a relative handicap for each facet of the game as compared to their target handicap group. So, you know, if you're a low handicap, you pick the zero to two or the plus one to plus three target and that's what you get compared to, if you're an average golfer, you'd pick the 25 to 29 handicap group and you will go from there. And so the system will, based on the strokes gained analysis assign you a, a number one improvement priority. In other words, in what part of the game are you losing the most strokes on average per round to, that of your target and why? Because of our 399,000 rounds, we have our unique data. We can, we can show people exactly what it is. If it's the short game, is it, you're not hitting it close enough, or you're making too many mistakes, missing greens and the same with putting and driving and whatever, whatever it may be. [19:14.6]

Marty: So.

Peter: And when you, when you improve and you reach your target, the system says, congratulations, and you select a lower target.

Marty: I know.

Peter: And we've had people, I've had people that started as, you know, regular, mid 20 handicaps. Who've gotten down to low single digits and as I did. [19:35.9]

Marty: Yeah, no, I think that's interesting. You just answered my follow up question. There is like, when people see improvement, what happens, obviously, you know, you select another one, but then also some, some real good information there where, you know, you take a high handicapper and I've played with so many people over the years and those little things, like, you're not going to bring it up to him and to that person. I mean, I am by no means somebody that should be instructing anybody on their golf game, but you see little things and it's just like, Oh, and it's like, you hear them say, like, I always do this. And I would assume, you know, like Shot by Shot from the analytical approach would help somebody eliminate those tiny little mistakes and know a little bit better about their game when they're 80 yards out or 150 yards out, that sort of stuff that it doesn't make it seem wishy washy. Like, Oh, I just need to hit the perfect shot here in their head without knowing like, wow, if I just hit a with whatever club, I know I have a better statistical way of getting it where I need it to go. Is that like a, a good, like, just synopsis of what you were saying there? [20:45.7]

Peter: Yeah. it's it's perfect. The game while we're out there playing it is an emotional roller coaster. And it's very hard to say, Oh, what am I doing well? What am I not doing well? I even find that with my tour players still, they’ll say I hit the ball, Great. You know, I'm a terrible putter and I'll, I'll do an analysis of the most recent tournaments and I'll go, no, you're a pretty good putter. You're making too many mistakes off the tee.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: Actually, they don't see that because of the PGA tour does not, does not include errors in their stats and their 360 stats of every player every week, there's only one negative stat. That's three part avoidance.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: And there's seven of those. But anyway, so its…people have to, people have to have a way of unemotionally recording easily as they go around what's happening and then they can get it back and go, huh? I didn't know I was doing that. I didn't know I was missing leaving every second bunker shot in the bunker. [21:59.2]

Marty: Right. Huh! That's interesting. I always relate it back to like playing experiences whenever I talked to somebody. I played with somebody 70. Oh, it was probably about six years ago. And I'm thinking about it cause I know the course I was playing on. And this gentleman is just paired up, didn't meet him, never met him before. And we were playing early in the morning and off of every Tee he was hitting a five iron just about, and you would place it right on the fairway. And sometimes you'd be in, you know, a little further up based on the distance. And the other times you just be on the edge of the fairway, but from there in, he would play lights out. Like he's just like, I can't, you know, get the driver like an or even a wood off the tee very well. And he's like, this is how I play. [22:43.4]

And I mean, I think he shot like a 74. He was two over 72. And he had, it was amazing to me because I watched so many people play and I played so long and sometimes it shows and sometimes it doesn't and was like so many different approaches to it. And I would just think like having this in your back pocket and having the analytics behind it and understanding what, what your game is doing and where you are missing, which is be a huge benefit to anybody. And I think, you know, putting those things down and understanding just like this gentleman was playing just a five iron off the tee and he knew where you would place the ball. And he literally placed the ball every way in the fairway. Then on the green and you know, you miss two putts or you would have been just par for the day. And I just remember that round, like so vividly, it just sticks there. And I've played with some guys in their mid-eighties and I've watched them go around and they just knew what they could do. [23:47.6]

Peter: Hmm.

Marty: And I think sometimes that's missing because you liked the flash of the game where look, if you're basing everything off of PGA pros, you're going to be sadly disappointed, you know.

Peter: Yeah.

Marty: No one's going to go out and hit the ball 330, you know, on a regular basis. Those guys are a lot different. And the way they play in practice are much different. You know, golf to me is a very personal game and you're in your own head. Like you said, it's an emotional roller coaster when you're out there. But every once in a while, you know, if you use Shot by Shot, be able to pull out data in your mind and be able to make that and you'll feel better. And then, you know, it just builds, you know, you're not going to make every shot. You know, it's not going to help you with your swing mechanics. But if you understand some of those things, you have much more enjoyable time out there.

Peter: Well, if you know your strengths, as well as your major weaknesses, you can play to your strengths like.

Marty: Right. [24:41.58]

Peter: That gentlemen played to his five iron off the tee and you can address with your bro or lessons or reading,magazines, whatever your weakness is and play, try to not to play to it. They know I want to avoid that, that type of shot or, or
as he did, he avoided the driver.

Marty: Hmm…hmm. And you would say every time you would hit something, it was just every once in a while, I was like, I hit a good shot and he's like, most of these would just put me in trouble. And then he was like, I just hated playing, you know? And then was like, it would throw me off. And he was like, this is how I play right now. And I was like, impressed because it was like, it was interesting now that moving into, I'm not the kid anymore, that could go up and just, you know, swing away and power something out there. And then now that I, when I play with, you know, younger guys and then I watched them do the same thing and I'm like, Oh man, I'm the older guy that are now hitting par and birdie. And you know, taking a couple bucks off these guys and it's kind of like, Whoa, if the roles have reversed, but you learn your game and it's fun. And I think that's the whole point in golf is you learn a little bit about yourself along the way. So let's just shift a little bit here and just talk about golf in general. Like when did you start playing? Like how did you know your, you know, how'd you get into golf? [26:01.3]

Peter: My dad thought he should take up golf because it would be good for his business.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: Relationships. So he dragged me out, I was seven years old and I had a cut cut off driver cut off five iron and a cutoff putter. And we played nine holes at a public golf course in Washington, DC called Haynes Point. And the little nine hole course that we played had nine grains, no sand traps, no trees, no nothing. You just played four out and five back. And we did that every, every Saturday afternoon until I got into playing sports other than golf. And then I dumped dad. I said, nah, I'm not doing that with you anymore. Cause I was playing basketball and football and all that, but I had a I had a game. [26:57.1]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: And so when I you know, when I went away to college and I took his clubs with me because he wasn't playing anymore, one of my roommates played golf on the UVA golf team. And when spring training came around for him to warm up, he got access to the private club in Charlottesville.

Marty: Oh nice.

Peter: And he would take me and a couple of our fraternity brothers and we'd play a $5 Nassau then.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: Like you know, back in the early seventies, late sixties. And he taught me a little bit about my grip and loosen that. And, and I just said, well, that's it. I’m gonna, golf's going to become a part of what I do.

Marty: That's awesome. And just keep, keep going and then turns into a business. That's that's awesome. What what's your favorite golf memory? [27:48.9]

Peter: Well, it has to be breaking 80, 1st time planning, pebble beach in a business event that I was invited to play in. And I didn't have a handicap, you know, I played, but I didn't have a handicap, didn’t belong to a club, all that and was, was, you know, just had a great day on an unbelievable golf course. And I shot 79 and I've got the scorecard and it's mounted on my wall.

Marty: That's awesome. And then, you know, turning it around, like your favorite professional golfer of all time, like who, who was the person that you had to follow?

Peter: Tom Watson.

Marty: There you go.

Peter: As it turns out he is, he and I are the same age. [28:46.1]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: And when I was taking the game up seriously, I bought his book ‘Getting Up and Down’ with Tom Watson and I read re-read and practice and practice. He would just his attitude, his spirit, you know, he was a great competitor and all those wins at the British Open and Pebble beach. And I wanted to be like, Tom Watson,

Marty: There you go. I think you know, Tom, Watson's one of those gets mentioned, but I also think to you at the same time, it's like lost in the shuffle of how great his career was. You know, it's just, when you really look back and you look at all the wins and then, you know, it was PGA player of the year, I think like four or five times, right Iin the, I guess, late seventies, early eighties. And then you just look through and you're like, Whoa. You know, like, and he had a long career too, you know, I think he's got 30.

Peter: Yeah. [29:45.5]

Marty: I don't know if it's 40. I think it's just, I'd say high 30 wins on tour. Like, I mean, it's like one of the great, great players of all time, but it does get lost in the shuffle every once in a while I think when they mentioned people and that's great answer. Is there like a specific shot he made that you remember, that's just like, Oh, it’s burned in your brain.

Peter: Sure. It was the up and down on the 17th hole at Pebble beach.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: To win the open.

Marty: Yup. I know, I figured you were gonna say that.

Peter: He was in the, you know, the high grass down downhill to a close-cut pin. And evidently, he said to his caddy I’m gonna make this.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Peter: He made it.

Marty: Yeah. And that was Jack was on Tee I think. Or was he playing with Tom?

Peter: Yeah. I, I don't, I don't think he was playing with him, but how he needed it.

Marty: He was on the tee, he needed it. Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. [30:45.1]

Marty: Yeah, they recall that I just finished a…was it Arnie & Jack the book and they mentioned that specifically, that shot. And I can't remember whether he was playing with him when he was on the tee, but he just knew it was done then at Pebble. So yeah. It's interesting like how many of those things are burned? Like, like just in your brain when you remember it, because just the pressure and like much like Shot by Shot is like, you know, the percentages and when those guys can do that and they just know like, alright, I have the shot and I just need to land at the right spot. And you know, that's what everyone strives to, you know, and they're, they're masters at it. So what's what's new in golf that you like right now, that's going on in the game? [31:31.9]

Peter: Well, over the last several years, I was fortunate enough to be a Green Chairman at my club, you know, so, for six years and saw the introduction of rollers for the greens. So this was a while ago, but I became very good friends with the superintendent and we traveled and played golf together all over the place. But there's a lot of new things with agronomy. The courses just get better, better, and the greens better and better. So that's exciting. And I don't know how far they go with that new strains of grasses and all that. But then, then you go, the technology is moving very fast and new things coming out. I can't keep up with the new drivers.

Marty: Yeah I know.

Peter: Mainly cause I can't afford to get a new one every year.

Marty: They are ridiculous. [32:29.2]

Peter: But here’s a ridiculous I have my friends that I play with, they look at my drive, I've got the original epic, you know, Calloway and they go, God, that's an antique.

Marty: Hmm…hmm. Well, I I'm playing. I'm playing right now with my driver and my three wood are the original, Big Bertha. So they're like 20 years old.

Peter: Oh get out.

Marty: So I took them…

Peter: Oh no I had that.

Marty: I took them back out because I was having problems. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to try this. And I've been using them now for a year and a half. I'm going to go get fitted for a new driver at the end of a week or so, but.

Peter: Awesome.

Marty: I know, but like I was playing a couple of weeks ago and the guy looked at my bag. He was like, really? And I'm like.

Peter: Hmm…hmm.

Marty: So he hits a drive. I hit my drive and I'm five yards behind him. Like, and he's using brand new. I'm like, I don't know, dude, like, I guess these work. And he just looked at me. He wasn't really happy with my answer because then I beat him the rest of the way.

Peter: Yeah. [33:33.0]

Marty: Which was kind of fun to me. But I was just like, I don't know, man. I'm like, it just feels comfortable to me. So I kinda just keep using it. So, but I can't keep up with all that stuff.

Peter: It's hard. And, and I admit that if you and I stood on the first tee together and I looked in your bag and I saw Big Bertha which I, I had that, that I would be wondering about your game.

Marty: He was. I know

Peter: Yeah.

Marty: It's just interesting. I mean, to me, it's like.

Peter: Good for you.

Marty: And then I played with a guy that was using Persimmon Woods the other day, last Thursday, when the last time I was playing and I was like, Oh, I love that sound because I heard it. And I turned around. He was like, Oh, and I'm like, what's up with that? He's like, I like to play with it every once in a while. And so we were just talking about it, cause that's what I learned on. [34:26.6]

And you know, when I was a kid and even my grandfather used to say is like, if you learn to hit these, he's like, then, then we'll see what happens. And I learned to hit those. And he was like, alright, you know, we just kind of graduated from there. But last question here, it's a two parter. So what's your favorite course that you've ever played? And then what's course that one course that you want to play that you haven't?

Peter: Well, I've been lucky in my ability to play courses, but my favorites are colored by the experiences that I've had and the people with whom I played. But Pine Valley is my, is my favorite course.

Marty: There you go.

Peter: I had the great pleasure of playing an event there for 12 years and played against the who's, who in amateur golf. But and it's a wonderful, wonderful risk reward course. Every shot gives you a bail out, which then makes the next one harder or a high risk shot, which then makes the next one easier. And, and it's, it's just a wonderful place. [35:32.1]

Marty: Awesome and what’s the one on the list?

Peter: And the one that I haven’t, the one that I haven’t Oh, Augusta.

Marty: Fair enough.

Peter: I know. I probably will never, I've had some near misses where I got a last minute and couldn't go, but I’ve been to the event twice and I said to my friend that I had a great experience and wouldn’t trade it for the world. But I said I’m not going back unless I am playing.

Marty: I have a, I often share that story. I have a friend of a friend that has an interesting story about the time he got to play there, but we don't have time for that. But Peter, I really enjoyed speaking with you and I look forward to speaking with you more. And for everybody out there its shotbyshot.com. Take a look at it. You know, it's really interesting and it's some fun stuff for your game. And you know, I think one of the unique things is Peter said earlier is it can help you improve and it's not gimmicky in any way. You just have to be honest with yourself and where you're at and you start tracking the information and it's an easy way to do it. So get out there and check it out. And Peter, anything else to add? [36:52.3]

Peter: I just want to thank you, Marty. It’s a pleasure and talk to you anytime.

Marty: Sounds like a plan. Well, everybody, I appreciate it. Couple more episodes coming out in the next few weeks. We'll be more on the golf topic than beer for a little bit cause we had some, some crazy stuff going on in the world, but we have some interesting people coming up and I look forward to speaking or having you hear everything. And if you have any questions, just reach out and if you have the opportunity, please, please go check out, shotbyshot.com. Peter. Thank you.

Peter: Thank you, Marty. [37:25.1]

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