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Craft beer marketing is constantly changing. What worked in 2018 doesn’t work in 2020. And what works today won’t work tomorrow.

If you don’t adapt, you get left behind. But if you execute what works, you can grow your business, no matter what’s happening around you.

Steve and Scott from Market the Brew stay on top of the game constantly—they know what works in craft beer marketing. In this episode, they stop by to tell you exactly what marketing works—and what fails.

If you want to do effective marketing to survive the crisis, listen now!

Show highlights include: 

  • The 3 elements of effective craft beer marketing strategy. (5:00)
  • Why a great brand can be a weakness if you slack off on this activity. (15:03)
  • The heartbreaking truth about craft beer marketing in a crisis. (17:55)
  • How laziness can make people hate your beers. (19:27)
  • Some breweries will survive the crisis, others won’t. Here’s how you can survive. (22:10)

If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure you head on over to www.tapsandtees.info and download your free report of ‘No BS,’ game-changing marketing tips and strategies that show you how to blow up your brand online.

Read Full Transcript

You are listening to the Taps and Tee show weekly conversations for people, passionate about marketing, golf and craft beer. Marty is the cofounder of Bad Rhino an award winning digital marketing agency helping golf and craft beer brands get real results in social media marketing. Here is your host, Marty McDonald. [00:21.7]

Marty: Hey, everybody welcome to another episode of Taps and Tees and continue this little series here of talking to people in the marketing world, whether they're in craft beer or beverages insurance or anything that has to do with really good professionals and that's really the main key is you're going to hear me talk about a variety of things and you have as you've been listening to it, or this might be your first episode, but really the main focus of this series here that we're putting out is talking to people that are dealing with change, whether it's in their industry or just overall, but also putting you in touch with people that can help you. And I'm only bringing people onto this podcast that I've worked with in the past or that I trust, I’ve I've spent a lot of time with them. I know they do good work and they stand by their clients. And today I'm really excited to have a couple of guys on here that I've gotten to know over the past few years and they just do a lot of interesting work. [01:13.8]

They're the guys from Promote the Brew and they are definitely 100% a leading resource for marketing and promoting craft beer, independent craft breweries. And this is what I love about these guys, they know what they're talking about, right? We're only bringing those types of people on because they have, you know, over 70 years of experience in a wide variety of promotions for major brands. We're not talking about small brands here, we're talking to things about Harley Davidson, Miller Brewing company, Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville and a ton of others. What they've really brought to the table with breweries is taking that experience and putting breweries ahead of the curve. And there's always a lot of things that are changing in craft brewing industry and the world. And it's important to stay on top of it and these guys are a great resource. So without any more, I'll let them do a little bit of intro. Scott and Steve you there. [02:02.1]

Scott: We're here.

Steve: We're here.

Marty: Alright, one of you guys want to add on anything that I said there?

Scott: Yeah, I'll jump in. This is Scott. Steve and I are actually brothers. We were raised in a promotional product family. Our parents owned a promotional products company for over 40 years and that's kind of how we got into the business. So we were kind of indoctrinated into the promotional products industry at an early age. And I always tell a story, I always remember growing up and going to school and always wanting to trade with the kid that had the brown paper bag for a book cover because mine always said first national bank and trust or something along that line. And I wanted the anonymity that a non-promotional product gave me all my pens had a promotion on them as well. So like I said, we've grown up in the industry being from Milwaukee, we're also big beer connoisseurs. Anything to add Steve? [02:57.5]

Steve: Nope, that pretty much covers it. It's, it was fun getting into this industry because as Scott said, we, we were really into beer and Oh, you know, over the years we've done, as you said in the intro, Marty, we've done work for MillerCoors and Miller brewing company. And for a while there, you know, there wasn't much differentiation between Miller and Budweiser and the bigger beers. And so when craft brew started getting hot and really getting interested, Scott and I really dove into it and it's so much fun to be able to try different beers. All these brewers are so creative with the way they refined different styles. They've brought styles back that were difficult to find or that you really couldn't find unless you were traveling over to Europe or somewhere else. So it's been really a lot of fun to bring our marketing expertise to this really cool and artisan craft beer market. [03:57.8]

Marty: No, that's great. And I think, you know, with that experience is really what when we started talking the first couple of times really attracted me just to, Hey, these guys have a different background then what you see out there. And when you put that into place, like you said, there wasn't a lot of differentiation between, you know, Miller product, Budweiser product, and then all of a sudden they all started buying each other and merging and all sorts of craziness during this whole craft beer boom. And you're sitting there and you're trying to figure out, you know what to do. And that's where like bringing these people in for these interviews, everybody is you need to start to look at some of these things in your business. And it's not just promoting, it's like, where do you want to go with your products? Where do you want to go with your locations? What do you want to do with your overall business? And having, you know, promote the brew and, and guys like these, they can help start to create that path. So when you start to work with somebody, you know, what, what do you focus in on guys? Like what do you, what do you want to get out of them so that you can help them out the best? [05:00.1]

Steve: Well, we have three areas that that we focus on and we call it the training, the plan and the stuff. So we've developed a series of online training courses and it's all designed to help the brewers do a better job at two main areas, their branded merchandise programs and building traffic or what we call butts and barstools getting people into their brewery. The second part, the plan is, you know, if the training, they're not able to get everything out of the training that they need, we're available to help them develop plans for, for both the brand and merchandise and for their marketing and traffic building. And then the stuff is we also provide the branded merchandise for their merchandise programs. [05:45.5]

Scott: Interesting thing is, you know, Steve and I both worked with Harley Davidson, Steve way back in the early days, just after they had bought themselves out of AMF. And we see a lot of similarities between the brew industry and the growth path that Harley Davidson had taken. And we see a lot of potential for a lot of the breweries as they go forward and as they grow very similar to what we saw in Harley Davidson. So we're able to bring a lot of that expertise that we learned along the way. Helping Harley Davidson grow its brand to the craft brew industry. [06:22.2]

Marty: No, that was great. And there's always similarities that you know, certain companies can pull from whether you're in the craft beer industry or not, that sometimes people feel like they're copying something to craft breweries cause I know they're very independent and they love their brands as they're developing them. So they feel like, Oh we don't want to copy something that Harley Davidson has done or one of those other bigger brands that you've worked with? Did they push back? [06:47.7]

Scott: No, I find that a lot of times these brewery folks, they're like sponges. They want to know everything. They want to learn everything, they want to engage, they want to participate. But on the other side of that coin too, they want to be authentic, they want to be transparent. And so if they are going to copy or, or, or take something from somebody else, a lot of the times maybe internally they'll mention where, where the idea came from or they will talk about the similarities and they'll talk about why they use the idea and you know, you know, copying is the greatest form of flattery.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: So if it's not stealing ideas from Harley, it's stealing ideas from other breweries. And that's one of the reasons Steve started the market through podcast was to take some of these great marketing ideas and share them with people all over the country so that a promotion that works really good in Portland, Oregon could also work at a brewery in Portland, Maine. [07:45.4]

Marty: Yeah. It's always interesting because I find the same thing as, you know, they want to learn. How do you find with craft breweries when they're putting things in place, are, are they running to that and putting things in place right away and executing on them or does it take a lot of time? [07:59.3]

Scott: It depends on the brewery.

Marty: Okay.

Scott: Depends on the size, the resources, the staffing, what their ultimate goal is. We find that that there's a lot of enthusiasm all the way up until implementation and things of slow down. I think, you know, they're, they get really excited and they're very enthusiastic in it and just about the time they hit the edge of the cliff, somebody else stopped.

Marty: Right.

Scott: And then they slowed down and they think it through. And I think because of that, a lot of times what they would, what they're working on with us gets better at that point. [08:34.9]

Marty: No, that's a great point. It's like run up to that starting line. Then the work has to start, you know? So what keeps you excited? Just working in the craft beverage industry?

Scott: Besides the beer?

Marty: Yeah, we'll get to the beer later. Yeah, but besides the beer.

Steve: I think it's the constant challenge. These guys, they're under resourced and they're in a market where there, there a lot of competition, not just from other breweries, but from other entertainment options.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Steve: So it's always, how do we be inventive and creative in getting out into the marketplace and getting people into our, into our taproom or into our brewery. So some of the stuff that they come up with is really inventive. It's really gorilla, which I like. And so it's been fun for us cause we really have to be creative with them to.

Marty: Sure.

Steve: To actually help them out. [09:35.2]

Marty: Did anyone in your craft beer industry experience specifically ever bringing like a horrible idea that you had to tell them and say, no, no, no, this is not going to work.

Steve: Boy! Not necessarily.

Marty: That's a loaded question, I know.

Steve: Oh, boy.

Scott: Yeah, that's what we want to talk about.

Marty: You don't have to mention them by name, but just curious.

Steve: Not like a…yeah, there have been some bad ideas. Today, like you, you think about, it's like, boy, how would you execute this?

Marty: Right, yeah.

Scott: We have seen a lot of them posted on social media, thank God that other people have convinced breweries to do or brewers decided to do on our own and we often will use those as part of our education as to what not to do.

Marty: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah. And I think that's a big part of it. And this is why, you know, bringing you guys on, you know, cause there's a lot of people and those were, you know, we'll get to it in a few minutes, but you know, as we're recording this, we're in May of 2020 early on and in the middle of a lot of change and upheaval and a variety of different things. [10:35.8]

But you know, and talking about that is like having people like Scott and Steve to bounce ideas off of for your promotion. If nothing else, listen to their podcasts and listen to the other information that they have because it is huge. Because a lot of times as an agency when Bad Rhino walks in and I'm standing there and we're talking about different things, it's just like, Oh man. And it doesn't matter whether it's craft beer or other industry, it's like, Ooh, we gotta adjust the expectations a little bit about what you want to do because you don't want to end up as being one of those bad examples that's just floated around out there. Cause that spreads like wildfire and you want to make sure that you have people that you can, you know, rely on within your brewery. Because as these guys just mentioned, you're understaffed. You're trying to do a lot of different things and wear multiple hats. And sometimes you know, those things just get catch up with you. You get tired and you get a little lazy and you just throw something out there and that can really hurt your brand. [11:32.4]

And I think that's important to just note that you don't want to screw anything up and, and be one of those case studies. You just want to keep moving it and have people in your corner that can help you at least make that decision. You don't have to go have a full blown agency out there. You just need to have people that are making, you know, validating some of those things and maybe pointing out some things that you're not thinking about. So guys, like when you're out there and thinking about all this stuff, you know, what keeps you motivated to bring out new ideas? I know we just talked about a similar question, but those new concepts and those new ideas that you're seeing, you know, how they relate now going through this whole little Corona virus thing, but also just before that, like what were you seeing evolution and how has this whole thing impacted your day to day jobs? [12:19.9]

Scott: Well, I think part of that goes back to what Steve and I have been working out for the last five weeks. We used to run these workshops, in person through zoom meeting and we found that, you know there's a lot of people not working right now and so how can we provide the same course without having them have to get into a zoom meeting at a certain time, which was difficult when the breweries were opening. [12:46.1]

And so we've put it onto an online program now where they can study at their own pace. But the reason that we started the education program is as we were working with these breweries for the last four or five years, we realized there was a different level of knowledge and experience with the people we were working with. And we tried to find a way that we could level the playing field with all the people that were out there buying apparel and merchandise and try and get them all to the same level of knowledge and maybe not experience but knowledge so that they could become better buyers. And with that, you know, double edge sword is the better knowledge they have, the easier it is for us to provide what they need because they understand what they're doing. And so instead of teaching them how to run an effective retail program, now they have that understanding that they're learning it as they're doing it and they're becoming an easier customer to work with because they understand all the different industry terms and processes. And like Steve said, you know, it's the education, the planning and then the final step is that is the stuff, you know, and the stuff is really easy cause we've been doing it for so long. [14:03.1]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: What really jazz’s’ us up is when we find something cool and new. Two years ago we were in a brewery and one of our customers said, you know, it'd be really cool is if you guys could develop this cover for a jockey box that stretches to fit over the top of it, but has holes for the handles on front and holds for the two John back. And so we went out and we created it and we presented it to her and she was so excited she ended up buying a dozen of them. So, you know, it's, I think when, when you have a consumer that's knowledgeable in what they're doing, it makes it so much easier for us to work with them to not only find really cool products to, to help them promote their brand, but also to create products that are’nt out in the marketplace to help them promote their brand. [14:48.8]

Marty: No, that's great. And I think that's a way to do it is you're getting people in the right mindset so that they then can execute on the ideas that you're bringing to the table as well as their own ideas and make them work. Really good stuff. As far as the craft beverage industry, you know, what's something that you'd like to see changed in it? I know we're talking about that question in a weird time in place in history, but you know, what are some of the things that even without the Corona virus going on and what's something that you would change in that industry or you just don't like that you would like to see move forward? [15:22.8]

Steve: Well, for me, I, I'd like to see them focus more on marketing. They all have done for the most part really good branding work.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Steve: So they've all seemed to have worked with some kind of company and come up with a strong brand they know, you know who they are, what they serve, who they're going after and why they're doing it, but then they seem to fall short in the marketing. How do they differentiate themselves? How do they attract new customers? How do they get the old customers back? And Scott and I have been kind of operating under the assumption or theory that at some point there'll be, you know, a saturated marketplace and they will look more to us for that kind of help because I'll just have to, to survive and, and to keep thriving and keep their businesses going. [16:09.6]

Scott: And we know, we've talked about this for the last couple of years with the increase every year of new breweries opening and you know the handful that disappear each year. The market is starting to get saturated. And one of the things that we've always talked to our parade partners about is how do you get your voice heard in the noise that is becoming this marketplace? And I think the Corona virus has kind of forced a lot of them to think about it because you know, you can't just expect people to walk into your taproom.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: Now you have to provide some level of service or something to get them to stop outside your brewery and pick up beer. And now in addition to just stopping in, they have to a lot of times call ahead time, put an order in on a credit card and then drive over, knock it out of their car, show some form of ID that lets them know that yes I bought some beer and then have it delivered to them in their car. [17:08.0]

So it's really changed. I think not only the level of service brewery owners and staff are having to step up too, but it's also changing the relationship of the brewery to the customer and I think that we're going to see some long-term changes in a lot of the things that brewery owners used to do and maybe take for granted that they're not going to take for granted going forward. And you know, as you would ask the question, what would we like to see change? I think, I think this is really going to drive the question about three tier distribution. [17:43.0]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: And whether or not breweries can start to ship beer similar to wine across the country as long as there's somebody 21 years of age or older that's signing for the product.

Marty: I agree a hundred percent. I think one of the biggest, not aha moments, but one of the things that I was like happy about but sad at the same time because of the circumstances that happen in his, we had a couple brewery clients that had reached out and to your point, you know, they would say, Hey, we finally realized why you're harping on us to create the email list, to create the text messaging to create so on and so forth and having multiple ways to communicate with our community and audience. And you know, it was a few and they were like, now we have to build it because you didn't right. And you know, I never thought like in bringing that to the forefront and thinking, Oh, there's going to be a global pandemic guys, we have to prepare for that in your marketing plans. [18:44.2]

But it was always the pushback like, Oh, we don't want to be bothersome. People come in here and you know, it's a personable community and we'll rely on social media. And I'm like, that's cool. That's cool. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna knock that because that's what you want to do in that industry. But at the same time I'm like, collect some cell phone numbers, collect some emails, do some giveaways because at some point you want to communicate them directly. And then I will tell you locally in my area, Westchester, PA, the ones that have done that seem to be the ones that are doing really, really well. And you're right, you know the marketing piece is, it's a key part of it because you have to differentiate yourself and it, it'll be interesting to see how everybody can differentiate yourself because I was already hearing from consumers that it was like, ah, you know, this beer really tastes very similar to XYZ’s beer of the same variety. [19:37.8]

And he started to hearing that more and more where, I don't want to say craft breweries, got lazy, but they really were modeling beers after other breweries’s, beers rather than coming up with their own unique spin on brewing. And when this whole thing first started, I go to brewery A to brewery B to brewery C and you'd have different flavor profiles across all three and I see less and less of that over the past couple of years and more of copycat. And I'm hoping that some of that in some of this change will kind of spur on some creativity and get some new things out there. But, in this since we're talking about it, you know, what were the major changes you know, that you've had to make in your own business just to continue working through a pandemic where everybody's a locked in at home? [20:29.1]

Steve: Well, the, the main change that, you know, we took this as an opportunity to really put our training programs online and our industry where it's kind of interesting has pivoted to becoming PPE suppliers. So we have spent a lot of time studying, learning and training ourselves in a PPE because I think moving forward we're going to be looked at as a mean resource and source for those, for the masks and the hand sanitizers and the thermometers.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Steve: And the flirty ells , and that kind of thing. As breweries look to, you know, how do we reopen and how do we do it in a way that's safe for both our employees and our customers? [21:11.3]

Marty: Sure. Yeah, we've been working with quite a few clients that have been shifting their products and services into that, which has been interesting as also a necessity. So everyone has like a weird feeling about how to, how to push it out. But ultimately you're providing a service and that's the service that's needed so you keep, you keep cruising along.

Hey, if you're enjoying what you're hearing on the show and want more, head on over to TapsandTees.info and get our free report with game changing tips and strategies straight to your inbox. Just enter your info and stop being stuck with no marketing plan. [21:44.1]

Marty: What do you think is the biggest challenge other than the obvious, we've covered two. People can't go in and just have it beer in a taproom. And then second part of it is, you know, breweries are struggling a little bit to kind of get the word out there, but what do you think this looks like? And I'm not asking for the perfect answer here, you know, the breweries that come out of this. What are some of the common themes that you're hearing that they're doing to make sure that they sustain through this? [22:10.2]

Scott: Well, I think communication was an issue before we went into this. And I think it's really taught a lot of breweries how valuable communication with their customers are on a regular basis. You know, not just talking to the mug club members on mug club members Mondays, but you know, how do you reach the market or your community at large? And I say, you know, a lot more community involvement. There's some breweries here in town that there, they started this bingo card and it's not just breweries, but it's local restaurants and other small businesses. And so you go around and you get a stamp from each location that you buy something at and then at the end when your bingo card is full, you get something. [22:56.8]

And I think, you know, being able to collaborate not just whether the breweries but with other local merchants that are small businesses as well, it's really building that level of community and really helping the breweries engage with their customers in a new way. And I think it's pretty exciting for all of us marketers out there to be able to say, okay, you know, what did you ultimately learn from this experience and how can we put that learning into place to help you grow once it's on, once we start to move out of this and move forward. [23:31.1]

Marty: Great point Scott and craft breweries are, you know, they set the model, in my opinion, to build strong communities that then also work within that community. You know, they bring people and most of them do have charitable causes and they always looking out for their neighbors in a way. And I think that's a great thing you know, where you can pull other people that are, you know, facing a similar or the same types of challenges in their businesses and help promote them. I think is a huge thing that everybody should be doing, not just breweries. [24:04.9]

Steve: Oh yes, Marty; I just want to hitchhike on that. I think that is one of the strengths of the craft beer industry.

Marty: Absolutely.

Steve: Is that all these guys know each other and so like co promoting or branding together, two pull together some kind of creative promotion that works for everybody and it serves everybody's marketing objective and engages the customer in different ways. I think that's like a key benefit that the craft beer industry has. And some of them have been leveraging it better than others by I think you're going to see more and more of these guys doing that, coming up with ideas on how they can work together to engage customers and, and have fun with them at the same time. [24:48.2]

Marty: I hope so, Steve. I think many times when you have something that's crazy that happens and weird that you start to shift a little bit and I think many of the best brewers are already starting to put those things in play. They've always been collaborative and I think they're starting to put some other things in play because let's be honest, there's just going to be some businesses and then there's breweries and other things that just aren't going to make it. And that was true before this happened, but it's also more so true now because it shines a light on many of your deficiencies. And I think one of the best ways to actually, you know, start to help fix those and hopefully you know, continue on is to work with others and ask people others, this is the whole reason I've been bringing people like yourself onto this podcast and getting them out of there as fast as I can because I think people just need to hear that. [25:37.7]

That's like the big thing that I've been doing. I've been trying to participate in as many and then pulling other people in just to introduce them. They may not know you guys, you know? And I think there you're important too, at least hear what you have to say because you've been in, in this industry for so long, but you also have great points in your, you know, in acknowledging like the community aspect and the other things that have been going on and how it can impact your brand. And I think that's huge. Yeah, it's crazy. And it's a weird time and I always like to have fun on this podcast in the last few have been kind of like hit this point where we have to talk about what's going on because that's the whole point of it. But at the same time we're normally talking about beer and golf. [26:17.8]

So with you guys, I, I know you like beer cause I got to hang out with you a few times and definitely talking about certain beers that you've had and, and other things. So we'll start off, you know, whoever wants to go first, you know, tell me about a couple of your favorite beers and why and if you don't want to mention clients that's fine. But just in general. [26:39.9]

Scott: Go ahead Steve, I'll let you start.

Steve: I have a local brewery that has a barley wine that's been Barrel-aged, named won, a GABF a couple of times with it and so that's like one of my favorites. Even though I live in Florida and I do like the sessionable beers. Boy, having a big beer like that that's in your face and higher ABV, that's a, I always look forward to one of those when I can get them. [27:10.4]

Scott: For me, I like a really happy double or Imperial IPA. You know, there's a brewery out in Madison, Wisconsin called untitled art and they had made a strawberry milkshake IPA that I thought was just absolutely amazing. And then I like anything barrel-aged, anything dark that's barrel-aged. So give me a Stout, a Porter. Steve took me to the festival of barrel-aged beer a couple of years ago down in North side of Chicago and I thought I was in heaven. It was such a great event and there were so many good beers. There were so many, I can't remember the last couple I had, but I just love the whole barrel aging process and the fact that you know, it takes so much time and you have to sample it all the time and see where it's at. And then on top of that, you know, a brew master that knows what he's doing has to take and blend different barrels together with the right amount to get just the exact flavor notes and alcohol levels that they're trying to achieve. Just totally blows my mind. [28:25.1]

You know, I always thought beer, especially, you know, when we were young, whenever we'd have company in town, mom and dad would take us all over to the Miller parade tourist center. And back then they had no limit on how many free beers you could get at the end of the tour. And so one of us always had ended up driving home, but I always thought beer was made the way Miller made it.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: You throw a bunch of junk in a container, you boil it for a while, stick it in another vessel, let it ferment for a while, and then you pour it into a million cans. So when I started to learn more about brewing and really understood beer, the barrel aging process kind of took all that to the next level. So I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing a really good barrel age program. [29:06.3]

Marty: Yeah, I've really enjoyed barrel age. I mean, I'm pretty sure based on the last conversation I had with you, Scott, that I could have answered that question for you. Cause mine is, mine is like the like, I mean, I'll try them, I'll try them all. Like the strawberry milkshake sounds interesting, but that's not something I want to drink.

Scott: Right.

Marty: You know, that's something I'll try and be like, Oh, that's interesting. But like the barrel aged stuff too. I'm all in for, I mean this past winter it was just seemed like Stout after Stout that was like just, you know, I mean they were heavy and they were, most of them are pretty high ABV, but they're just so good and it was just like perfectly put together and it takes time to do that. And I think, I think that's one of the things about craft beer that we all enjoy is, you know, it takes time to actually put that all together and make it happen. [29:56.4]

And if not, I'm drinking sessions now and like into, you know, really good sessions. And that to me is what I'm hearing in the marketplace too, is right before this broke, I was talking to a brewery in Arkansas and I was getting ready to go out to San Diego, which I did right before this whole thing break broke to speak. And the interesting part was he brought up, he's like, yeah, if you told me like four years ago, I'd have four sessions with four different hops on my Tapper in my taproom that I can't keep because people just keep buying and buying. He's like; I would have said you're crazy. He's like, but that's been, you know, the way people have been going towards slightly lighter in ABV, but still has the taste that people really like in this IPAs. So it's really interesting. [30:42.8]

Scott: Can I throw one more out there?

Marty: Absolutely.

Scott: You know, one of the hardest questions for any of us in the industry to answers, what's your favorite beer?

Marty: Yep.

Scott: Because we taste so many beers from so many different breweries. It's so hard to say, you know which one, that's why I always go with a style. [30:59.4]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: And one of the things that I've been telling people probably for the last year and a half is Thanksgiving and I two years ago, Thanksgiving, Steve and I and a buddy of mine from Holland went on a Thanksgiving beer run and we hit I think eight to 12 breweries in Wisconsin. And one of them was called the Funk Factory in Madison, Wisconsin, and all they do are sours. And so I ordered one of each of their eight different sours in an eight ounce glass. And at that point I choked them all down. And from that day forward I said, you know, I don't like sours, but every brewery I go to, if they have a sour, I'm going to try one.

Marty: Sure.

Scott: And I'm very happy that I have because you know, there, there's some really, really, really sour sours and then there's some tarts sours. And I've learned, I liked the tart sours and I always encourage people that if they're doing a flight and they do have a sour, don't be afraid to try them because you just never know what you're going to like. [32:02.2]

Marty: Yeah. See that, that's a great point. I was seeing way less sours for a while. I didn't like them at first. Well, I also think I had a bad sour one of my first ones and I stayed away from it just because I ate like a , it felt like I ate a half a bottle of Tums and the later in that night and I saw her, it was because of the sour, probably not all the other food and the seven different other types of beers I had. Right.

Scott: Right.

Marty: But you know, you're right. And that's why like when I was just talking about like sessions and then the barrel age and then IPAs, I do try and stick with the styles. You know, I ask everybody that comes on and just to, because I want to promote other breweries that people may not have heard of. [32:42.4]

But at the same time it's, you know, when new beer drinkers come in, and this is what I'm probably myself personally, what I'm very concerned with is that most people still don't understand what craft beer is. The normal beer drinker. They want to try it, they think it's something different. But to your point, you know, going to that brewery and then having eights hours, that's an experience. Right? I don't know whether it's a smart experience, it's an experience, right? And part of it is getting together with people and trying the beers and talking about them. And I think that's one of the key things, you know, in during this time it's going to be difficult, especially for breweries that just started and they need to come up with some interesting ways to get that out there and speak to the community and share the, you know, share what the beers are all about without having that just walk in, you know, that they probably relied on for quite a bit when they first start out for sure. Because it is an experience to try all those beers. Last question for you guys [33:45.1]

Scott: For the record though Marty, I loved all eight of those sours.

Marty: That's fine.

Scott: Yeah, I was drained.

Steve: They actually had a cool ship in their parking lot, parked up back.

Marty: Really? Yeah, that's awesome. So either of you guys golf?

Scott: Used to and I do have interest and I do have a couple of interesting golf stories.

Steve: Yeah.

Marty: Oh everybody has interesting cough stories that's kind of pointed going out there and hanging out in the golf course. Either of you have like a favorite golf moment in your life. [34:13.4]

Scott: My, my best hole was always the 19th and it's probably most.

Marty: Mine too.

Scott: And there was a, the last time I golfed, the two best balls I hit with a, when I stepped on a rake in the sand trip.

Marty: I know it's a visual, that's a tough joke to have.

Scott: I have a couple of good beer stories. Back.

Steve: Beer or golf?

Scott: Back when I was a young guy.

Marty: It's probably one in the same.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: In the early nineties, I was calling on Miller brewing and my parents used to winter down in Florida. So Phillip Morris would run this, Phillip Morris invitational out at the PGA national in West Palm beach, Florida. And so I signed up to go be a writing score.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: And so Philip Morris would invite customers of craft, Philip Morris, Miller, and some of the other brands they had.

Steve: Philip Morris owned Miller at the time.

Scott: Right.

Marty: That's right. [35:12.4]

Scott: So one year I got to ride with Lee Elder and for, for the craft brew industry who might not know who Lee Elder is, who's just the nicest guy, he was the first African American to play in the masters tournament back in 1995.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: And then he was the first African American to play in the Ryder’s cup back in 1979. We're riding around in the golf cart and we have a Phillip Morris customers and I'm keeping score for all of them. And he'd happen to cart and he'd say, did you see that? You know, and he'd tell me what people were doing. So what he didn't realize is he was teaching me golf tricks or strategies for 18 holes. And on top of it he gave me half of his sandwich and gave me a cold drink that he pulled out of his bag. I learned more in 18 holes riding with Lee Elder that year. And then back in 1991, Jay Haas was the pro.

Marty: Yeah. [36:18.6]

Scott: That we were assigned to and it was cold, it was rainy, it was just a miserable day. And we hung out and played all 18 holes. I wasn't as miserable as the players cause they actually had to get out of the cart and play. But we got back to the clubhouse and Jay took me into the locker room and as he tossed me a couple of towels, the locker room attendant came over and he said, what are you doing? And he looked at the guy and he said, what do you mean? He says, he's not allowed in here. And he went nose to nose with this guy, and he said, listen, the kid just wrote 18 holes with me. It's pouring down rain out there and we're both cold. He says, if you've got an issue with it, go talk to the club owner. [36:59.7]

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: And then the a tenant left and then Jay disappeared for a few minutes and he came back and he said, come here. And so I followed him, we went out of the locker room across the hall and into a dark banquet room. And on the other side of the banquet room, there were big picture windows looking out onto the golf course. And because it was raining, it was pretty dark, but I could see the silhouette of two figures sitting at a table by the window. And as we walked closer, I started to recognize that it was Peter Jacobson and Arnold Palmer sitting at the table having a conversation.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: So as we walk up to the table, he says, Hey, I'd like you guys to meet Scott. He was my writing score for the day and he put up with all this rain and he took the hat off my head and he threw it over to Peter Jacobson. He said, would you mind signing this for his effort? So Peter Jacobson signed it, slid across the table to Arnold, and he signed it. [37:59.0]

Marty: Sure.

Scott: And then they showed it back to me and he said, Hey, is there anything you want to ask me? And I said, yeah. I said, you know, what's your biggest tip? He looked at me and he said, listen, he said, at my age, you need all the play in a golf club you can get. He said, but at your age it's all about the ball. He said, spend the extra money, get a decent ball.

Marty: Hmm…hmm.

Scott: Because at your age and your bill, you could probably hit it a mile. And so I still have the hat to this day and I look at it every now and then when I think about going out to golf and I don't. Those are my two great stories and I think Philip Morris and Miller bring for giving me the opportunity. [38:41.4]

Marty: Those are great stories. In fact the other golf interviews that I have coming out here in, in later this summer or hopefully soon actually. That's fascinating cause they're going to be jealous of that one. I like that. You know, those are great things. I think, you know, my experience in the golf world has been similar. It's like lot of really nice people, a lot of interesting people and you know, some assholes too. But in general like, you know, those people are very approachable. You know, Arnold Palmer was, I mean I had a friend of mine and he sent a bunch of stuff down and AP signed it all like, and send it back. I was shocked. I was like completely shocked that I got back all of it. I just like, Hey, whatever it is, whatever you're comfortable with giving him, just have it signed. And I sent it like small box, like not a hundred things, about 10 things and all 10 came back and he's like, that’s the type of guy he is so really interesting. So where can everybody find you guys online? And if you got anything coming out in the next month or two, you know, let's hear about it so everyone can find you and take a look at it. [39:44.6]

Steve: Well we are at promotethebrew.com and in our top navigation bar there's a tab called training courses and we have a new course coming out called the Apparel Buyer and it's going to be a free course and it's really an in depth course on how to buy apparel. We find it in the breweries; most of the people don't have expertise or deep knowledge on this kind of thing. So we really are teaching them about the different kinds of apparel, the different styles of different materials how to design, how to decorate for their brewery merchandise taproom in a way that I'll tell the story of their brand through apparel. [40:27.4]

Scott: We also have our other training courses up there, the merchandise workshop, the social media boot camp and the brewery and planning program. The Brewery and planning program is also another free program and we'd really like it if you'd follow us at Promote The Brew on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. [40:46.8]

Marty: And you guys have a podcast too, right? [40:49.4]

Steve: That is at marketthebrew.com or you can go to promotethebrew.com and hit the podcast tab. And right now there are 40 some episodes up and we've taken a little bit of a hiatus.

Marty: Sure.

Steve: But we're going to be kicking that off again pretty soon. [41:05.3]

Marty: Well, I think it's just always important when people can hear your voice and you know, listen to topics that you've talked about in the past. So, well, I appreciate it guys. You know, always good to talk to you. Unfortunately you're just talking around a, a weird time in, in life and in the world, but I appreciate it. And everybody else, you know, take a look at all their stuff. There'll be links and everything below, if not, you just go to tapsandtees.net and you can find all the information on these guys and I highly recommend them, they have a lot of good knowledge and they have a lot of good experience that you could pull on, no matter what business you're in, but especially if you're in craft brewing industry. So see you on the next episode of taps and tees. [41:42.0]

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