Have a podcast in 30 days

Without headaches or hassles

You’ve probably seen a ton of hacks, tricks and tactics which promise to skyrocket your business growth. If you’ve tried any of them, you know: Most of them don’t work.

These short-term fixes harm you more than they help. But you don’t have to use them. If you want lasting success as a financial advisor, use the strategies that have worked for centuries.

In this episode, Ben Settle shows you how. Ready to leave behind useless tactics and work with timeless strategies?

Listen now!

Show highlights include:

  • The simple strategy “God’s Copywriter” used to become a millionaire with ads you’d laugh at today. (4:26)
  • The case against reverse-engineering what successful advisors do (what keeps them rich might make you poor…). (11:21)
  • Whether the stock market is crashing or skyrocketing, this asset will always appreciate. (12:08)
  • This out-of-print sales book reveals: How to make prospects buy, even when they don’t need your services. (19:52)
  • Why free content hurts your clients and makes them hate you. (21:26)

If you’re looking for a way to set more appointments with qualified prospects, sign up for James’ brand new webinar about how financial advisors can get more clients with email marketing.

Go to https://TheAdvisorCoach.com/webinar to register today.

Ready to learn even more about becoming the successful financial advisor you know you can be? Check out these resources:


Read Full Transcript

You're listening to Financial Advisor Marketing, the best show on the planet for financial advisors who want to get more clients without all the stress. You're about to get the real scoop on everything from lead generation to closing the deal. James is the founder of TheAdvisorCoach.com, where you can find an entire suite of products designed to help financial advisors grow their businesses more rapidly than ever before. Now, here is your host, James Pollard. [00:32.0]

James: Financial advisors this is part one of a two part series with the great Ben Settle. I personally consider Ben to be greatest email marketer of all time. He has influenced my thinking and my business philosophy perhaps more than any marketer out there, at least in the marketing realm. Even though he doesn't necessarily focus on the tactical stuff and in the same way that he influenced me to think bigger and think deeper, I am trying to influence financial advisors to do the same. So here is part one of my interview with Ben Settle. [01:05.6]

Welcome to another episode of financial advisor marketing. Another week, another episode, Producer Jonathan is not here this week. He's probably off skiing and playing with cupcake or whatever he does when I'm not with him on a show, but this week's episode is when I've been looking forward to for quite some time because I have a very special guest on the show today. It is the great Ben Settle and let me begin by saying that without this man, you wouldn't be hearing my voice today and I mean that figuratively and literally because yes, he's influenced me in many ways, but he also had a podcast back in the day with producer Jonathan himself and it was called the bensettle.com podcast. It’s still out there. You can listen to it. Producer Jonathan was the very same person who produced that show and he produces this show, the financial advisor marketing podcast. [01:52.6]

Other than that, I am a proud subscriber to his monthly email player’s newsletter and I consider him to be the greatest email marketer of all time. He has said on his show, he considers Matt Furey to be the greatest email marketer of all time, but we are. There's new levels, new devils, I’d say. I’ve got my own email marketing product and stuff that's, but it is specific to financial advisors. The reason that I consider Ben to be the greatest of all time is because his stuff can apply to any business. And I mean that's what makes it so great. So without flapping my gums any further, I would like to bring him on the show. And thank you so much for doing this. [02:26.7]

Ben: You are more than welcome and I appreciate you. I appreciate all the true things that you just said.

James: I like it, yes. Okay, all true. Oh, so the, the theme that I had in mind for this show was I wanted to discuss three very profound lessons that I've learned from you over the years that have influenced my business at a very deep level.
The first one is this idea that you should be focused on making your own tactics. Because once you know the overall strategy and you kind of have a feel for your business and how things work, just principals, right, you can form your own tactics. Why do you think it's so important for people to do that?

Ben: You know, it's an interesting thing. It's not like I think you have to worry about it or go out of your way to try to figure it out. It's just something that's going to happen when you master the fundamentals and principles, whatever it is you do. [03:22.2]

So for example, this isn't never even gone I mean. So a couple of years ago when I was taking this Kung Fu lesson and the guy who trains me, he's like, you know, he's been doing this 40-50 years, you know, he just knows this stuff backwards and forwards, and he did something. Now this is Wing Chun Kung Fu. It's a very specific kind, you know, there's like 700 versions of Kung Fu. This is just one of many. And I go, I go see that doesn't look like Wing Chun. Is that even Wing Chun, what you just did, you know, that doesn't look like anything out of our forms or anything like that. He goes, no, not technically, but he goes, it's not in the Wing Chung form, but it's a hundred percent Wing Chun. He goes, when you know the fundamentals, you can start creating your own tactics. And that was like a huge light bulb for me. Cause for me it's, it's email marketing and copyright and that's primarily what I've focus on. And I have completely mastered the fundamentals, you know, as much as anybody probably could for as long as I've been doing this, at least you can always learn more. [04:21.5]

I mean I learned more every day actually, but as far as the raw fundamentals and I realized that at the time. I realized, man, I get to do things that aren't really, aren't really taught in so-called email or copywriting because I mastered the fundamentals. Now probably just from like in my world, there's this guy named Jim Rutz who died okay few years ago and he was a really great copywriter and you would look at his ads and they don't look anything like that you'd see in direct response yet they're a hundred percent direct response. And that's when that kind of started dawning on me. Now here, here's the important thing. If you want to stand out and whatever it is you do in the financial world, it doesn't really matter, it could be anything you do. Mmm. Everybody basically learns from the same gene pool of resources usually. But it isn't until somebody really masters the fundamentals of their craft, when you will start doing things in your own particular way; it just works for you and probably won't work for other people. [05:25.3]

And once you've gotten to that point, you're, you're hard to knock off. You start gaining more of a loyal following, cause there's people who just say, wow, this is someone who obviously knows their stuff. It isn't just like citing the same old thing. And that is when I believe people find a whole new level of positioning for their business in their marketplace that is very hard to beat. And so remember you were, you were saying that you think I'm, I'm your favorite email guy. And I'm like, well Matt Furey is my favorite guy and everybody's got kind of their favorite person. But most people who are on someone's list have gotten to that level where they just kind of created their own tactics from mastering the fundamentals of marketing or whatever it is they do.
James: Yeah. I think it's important when you mentioned that it makes you significantly harder to knock off. That is so true. And I remember you talking about that and I was like, yeah, right. I didn't believe you at first. I was like, yeah, right. If I've got the same opt in like landing page and I copy that. I'm going to get the same results cause it's the same thing. [06:28.2]

And I thought the way that most people thought. And I tried it with something and it didn't get the same results at all. I was like, what the heck just happened. And I experience at my own market where people tried to copy some things that I put out and I just let them do it. I'm okay with it now. Years ago, before I was in your world, I would have been like, Oh my God, they're copying my stuff. The world's burning down. But now I’m like let them do it. They're not going to get the same results. And I know that you know that.

Ben: No, it's very true. In fact, you're talking about landing pages. So I, for the last few years, I have had to, well actually three opt in pages testing. I don't even know. I couldn't even tell you what, what they say anymore is, I haven't looked in the longest time, but one of them, it does not look like it should be doing that. Well one of them, another one looks, but it's the most copied swiped one. Like I, I've seen people who they call themselves so called gurus swiping it word for word, right. Like it’s a whole other conversation in itself. [07:30.6]

And then I have another one that's just kind of out there. Doesn't really do much either way. Here's the thing, the one that everybody's swiped by far, it gives me the most options, I mean, it's not even close. But the one that nobody would probably think to swipe, gets way less options but leads the more overall sales. So I left. I just left them all up there. Cause I like the, I love the fact that there's people copying the wrong one. It kind of amuses me, you know, I don't, I don't know if it helps my business at all, but it sure does help my ego. And you know, at the end of the day, that's fine with me.

James: Yeah. I've seen that with everything from direct mail to Facebook ads to whatever. I just let it run. Like I don't care at this point. But that's, that's, that is very true. And it's always weird when I explain that to private financial advisors. I don't really work with them one on one anymore, but my business is still named The Advisor Coach, like, Oh God. [08:29.1]
And people still expect coaching. Whether or not that was a smart move, I don't know. But they come to me and they're like, I see so-and-so doing this. I was like, Oh, cool. Have you seen their bank balance though? Cause there's a difference.

Ben: Oh Yeah. Oh dude, it's so true. I mean I and and, and the world of email, this is like rampant, right? People will say, Ben you don't know what you're doing. Look what so-and-so's doing. I’m like, good. Let them do. I'm glad they're too stupid even. First of all, I'll say this. Here's what I always tell people. I don't expect them, and I told them I totally swiped this from a blogger named box days. It's so funny. I give them all the credit. Yes. I don't expect you to agree with me. I don't even expect you to understand. Cause when you get to a certain point trying to explain this stuff to someone who just seriously just doesn't know yet. And they will, I mean, they're just in fan boy mode probably. Where there just following all these people on social media and not going to get an actual education, education and anything [inaudible] it's just a waste. It's a waste of your life. [09:30.1]

I love the fact that there's people out there that sit there and they say and all that, well, yeah, you should be doing this and that. Good. Go follow them. Get out. You know, nobody wants you. Trust me. I don't want you around any of us, so do us both a favor. But that's that. This, this is kind of bringing us around to the whole neediness thing. That's the attitude to have, when you don't need anyone's approval and you don't care. In fact, you start realizing that the more you do what the crowd is doing, the lesser, whatever it is you're doing works and the less you do it, the crowd is doing the more whatever it is you're doing works. It changes the whole thing.

James: Yeah. when you went off social media, I was like, I didn't want to kill all of my social media accounts at once and I was like, Ooh. I was like you got a point. So I don't even get on Twitter anymore. I have my assistant get on Twitter and do her thing and all that. [10:26.5]

I am somewhat active on LinkedIn because that's for, in my particular business, that's where the money is and this goes back to, you know, creating your own tactics and thinking independently and thinking critically. For my particular business in my particular scenario, deleting LinkedIn would probably be the wrong move in my business. Yeah. For someone to just take it, what Ben Settle does and copy it would not be necessarily right it’s because Ben, you're making your own independent decision and based on your goals and your objectives, that's not right for everyone.

Ben: Oh, you're absolutely correct. I mean, I didn't leave it for some business reasons. I mean there were probably business reasons attached to it. The reality is it just, I felt like it was dumbing me down. And I never actually really used LinkedIn, so it didn't like leaving that impact. But if I was you, yeah, I mean it'd be crazy. It doesn't make any sense so that, yeah, you're right. That's why blindly copying or as people like to say, reverse engineering is just, it's a dumb way to go about doing things. It's okay to observe what people do. It's okay to try to dissect it and figure it out. [11:29.5]

Better thing to do is probably just to buy whatever they're selling so you have access to them to ask them. But you know, this idea of like independent thinking, it's just gone out the door because there's been too many marketing teachers over the years who used the pioneers get all the arrows thing, right? Well maybe they did, but the ones who persevered were also the ones that became rich while the tender foots only got the scraps left over. So you know it's one or the other. But if someone's going to go pounding their chest, rather an entrepreneur, but they're like scared of risk taking chances, it kind of goes against what the word either means.

James: Yeah, I could not agree more. And speaking of taking risk, the second thing that I learned from you was this whole idea of investing in yourself. And it's not really like I learned it directly from you, but it's like you brought it to the consciousness and I've always known that I should be investing in myself, but it was you who liked hammered it home for me, especially this idea that real business requires real investment and that most people are just playing business. [12:31.4]

And that's exactly what you say. You're the plain business. And I see that all the time with advisors who refuse to make investments in themselves and then wonder why they're struggling. Now I also know that you personally, you make considerable investments in yourself. Can you expand on why it's so important for people to invest in themselves?

Ben: Yeah. I mean you're, you're, well, yeah, and I'll, I'll bring this into different categories, but investing in your knowledge is obviously always a good thing, right? Like that's, but investing in your own business, it's like people go, what should I invest money in? Well, why not invested in your own business? That's my first thought. It's like if you're, you should always be putting a big chunk of money back into the operation. Can you imagine any company out there? And then, by the way, the internet has changed the way people think about the state. They just because they can get away with it doesn't mean they should.

James: Totally, I totally agree.

Ben: Right. Like could you imagine any business, pre-internet not pumping a good amount of money back into research and development? [13:35.0]

Yeah, they would go under. But people think, Oh, internet free, cheap, blah, blah, blah. And they got to get out of that mindset. You know, at the same time, everybody's starting somewhere, right. So, you know, most of us started out pretty broke. I know I did. I had a hard time even finding like spending money out of like a copywriting book, like an $8 book. It was like a hard stretch. But this guy Ken McCarthy, founding father of online advertising as we know it, you can Google should send him a check one day for like figuring out the things that they built their business on. But they never will. You know, he likes to say you can't invade Afghanistan with a pickup truck, so you're, you're resources have to match your, what you can do. You know, so this isn't the toe who's like just starting out and they're actually really hurting. That's not to say you can't go forward, you know but eventually you're going to have to invest in. [14:29.5]

You know, the first time, the first how I got my education in copywriting was I went on the site called. Oh shit. It's not, it's Upwork now, but I forgot Elance, I think it was called at the time.

James: Yeah. Yup.

Ben: And they, and I found a client and I got like some $800 job, which is like mind blowing to me at the time. This was like the year 2002 so you were probably eight.

James: I don't want to make you feel old.

Ben: But it’s okay.

Hey, financial advisors, if you're looking for a way to set more appointments with qualified prospects, I invite you to sign up for James' brand new webinar about how financial advisors can get more clients with email marketing. Go to TheAdvisorCoach.com/webinar to register today. On this webinar, you'll discover why email marketing is able to generate upwards of 4400% ROI for smart financial advisors, three fatal mistakes nearly all financial advisors make with their emails, and the proven three-step process for converting prospects into booked appointments using email. All you have to do is head on over to TheAdvisorCoach.com/webinar and register today. [15:39.2]

But you know, so, and I was on there and I'm like, okay, I got this money now. I could've just spent it on something, you know, at the time $800 was probably like you know like 1500 today or something. So who knows. But the point is that

James: Adjusting as inflation all those years ago.

Ben: Absolutely. All back in the day, Fred Flintstone was running around, you know, with his car running just to get it going. But the thing is, is that money went right into more copywriting education cause that's the thing I was studying. No, somebody listening to this, you're, you're focus is whatever it is. I'm just saying, I put it right back into that because, and then that compounds on itself over time, over time, over time. So yeah, I just don't want people to get like a complex that they have. Now, I'm at the point, now, this is last year I'm investing almost half a million in a mobile app company. Right. But it's not like you just started out doing that. You build up to it and so yeah. And investing in yourself, investing in your own business, investing in your future, investing in your community. I think is important actually when you can. [16:45.9]

James: Sure.

Ben: Yeah. So yeah, I mean there's all kinds of things to invest in but it's investing in yourself as number one because if you don't, what's that analogy? If you don't put your own mask oxygen mask on, you really can't help the one next to you. So that's why I look at it.

James: I liked that you brought up the pre-internet business versus the internet businesses because well our business is operating in the internet age I should say because people definitely think differently. And the example that came to mind when you said that, was having these old school direct marketers or direct response mailers sending out like five or six direct mail pieces to build value or like goodwill. And

Ben: Yeah, right. [17:25.2]

James: We never did that. They wouldn't do that. So I am of the school of thought and I know you may be as well where in marketing the idea of “Giving value”, just giving away the farm, giving a bunch of free stuff, being a giveaway artist is the wrong way to go. Why? Why is that? Because advisors have a hard time accepting that. When I explain it, maybe if you explain it, he'll get it.

Ben: You know, it's, it's so interesting. I was just thinking about this the other day, like what is, what, what has changed now? All the old school direct marketing teachers like Dan Kennedy and the late Gary Halbert and even today there are people who I have immense respect for in the direct mail world especially who are trying to do internet too and they'd just, they all screw this up. Now in the eighties and seventies maybe even the nineties maybe even the early two thousands it was a good idea. Right? [18:25.1]

But now information, just such a glut of information right now that competing on that is like trying to compete with like a boxer who's potentially stronger than you. Just I'm trading blows with them. It’s, yeah, you might get lucky or something, but the reality is they're just going to bowl you over. And that's what's happening. And I see this, I see people who should know better by now. And I've read their books and they're still preaching this thing like you got to give all your best stuff away because then people will see it and they'll say, wow, if this is what they give away free wonder what's in the paid stuff, which you know, there was a time when that probably did work. It's just ludicrous now. It doesn't even make sense. That's not what they're buying. What they're buying is you ultimately they're buying you, back in the old days, and this has never changed. It's just that people used information for so long to sell themselves that they don't know how to actually sell themselves anymore. But think about the old school door to door vacuum salesman, right? The person who bought the vacuum didn't, you know, usually it depends on who the sales person is. [19:32.3]

I guess but they were buying the salesman first and the best example of this, and this is the car selling industry is a, well this is Joe Girard, so his name Joe.

James: Yeah, the greatest. He sold like 13,000 cars. 13,000 cards a month he sent out like happy birthday or thinking of you. He sent out. Yeah, the guy was a beast.

Ben: Yeah, there was this book and it's called ‘Ten Greatest Sales-persons.’

James: I’ve got that right behind me.

Ben: Oh you got that. Okay. So that first chapter was like the only chapter worth reading in the whole book and it's him and it changes the entire, you understand just reading that why? Like I wanted to buy a car from him after that's after. But no kidding. Like he's like, you know, you come in here, buy a car, he goes into, introduces you to the mechanic and he says look, this is our manager of the mechanic, the head mechanic. You call, if you have any problems, if you can't get along you call me personally and I'll take. Like he just made you just want to only buy from them and refer to him. Did it matter even like if he was the, they had the best car? [20:32.1]

No, because you know, they were buying him and so it has today. So yeah, it's okay to give some value and some information when it makes sense. Right. But I'm a big fan of combining information with promotion at all times. And the master that is actually Dan Kennedy, he really is the master of combining both. It's just that whenever I've been on the email list that he's to have, I don't know if he does anymore, he just didn't practice. I had it all, you know, but then Matt Furey came along and he practices that like a champion. Like that's why I learned from an email point of view. Perfect at it like you and you felt like you were getting an education, but really he was selling you. And that's something that I think a lot of people have to understand. Go ahead and give information if that's what you're, if that's what everyone's doing, listen to this. But you know, withhold 10% of it, that they would need to actually execute the thing that is that you're teaching them to do and though you are educating them, you're demonstrating your knowledge, but they're going to have to buy, I mean, you're not doing them any favors by just giving them free stuff. [21:34.7]

Oh, this is a whole other topic right now. You're doing them no favors by giving them stuff. They should be paying for it because they're not going to value it. They're not going to consume it in the right mindset, but I'm probably not gonna. Yeah, they're not going to act on it. They're not going to do anything. You're actually hurting them by giving it away. Just free. I mean, it really is that people that pay for stuff take it more seriously. They're more likely to consume it. In fact, when I priced things, I priced for consumption first and foremost. What price am I going to price this at product or service? Well one. It's going to be most likely to be consumed or used. If it was an anatomy. What's what? How much do I got to charge for this? I know they're going to run it and not screw around. If it's a product, what am I going to charge for the silly? I'll feel like an idiot if they don't go through it. Right? That's what I start with and usually, and this is good news for everyone, usually that's a high price you know, so now think about that. Cause it’s, It's important. [22:28.1]

James: And I liked that you, when you brought up the ‘Ten Greatest Sales-persons.’ Financial advisors, by the way, if you're interested in that, it is an old book. I'm holding it in my hands right now. You're not going to be able to see it because the podcast is audio, unless you've got some weird super power, I don't know about. But the very first chapter is Joe Girard. And the thing that struck me was that Joe admitted that he wasn't a car expert, that he didn't know every little thing about cars. And in the financial advisor world, Ben, there are so many advisors who come to me and say, Oh, I can't prospect or I can't market because I don't have this designation yet, or I don't have all this experience yet. And while it's true that in financial services, you definitely want at least some level of experience

Ben: I doubt.

James: Because you're serving the general public. You don't have to wait until you a freaking Einstein of finance in order to go out there and help someone. Yeah. I mean, you probably don't know every last nook and cranny about marketing, but your impact, you're out there impacting lives. And you definitely helped me and I don't know any different if you know the world's greatest expert in marketing. All I know is that you've got me resolved and that's it. [23:33.7]

Ben: Yeah, well, you know the, the whole, I don't know if this is the dictionary definition, but it's a definition of expert is you just know more than the average. And you know, again, it's not even about who knows the most. Think about this, think about now I'm not like a huge Tony Robbins fan boy at all. I mean, I've just never understood that appeal like to the level that is there. But that's okay. It doesn't really matter. I'm just not his market. But do you think he knows NLP better than national scientists who figured it out? Yeah, he's the one making multimillion, but he helped people learn it because maybe he could put it in terms people are gonna understand. I can tell you right now, I've spent the last two months just writing emails and sales copy and getting prepared to launch a mobile app business and I can tell you right now, dude, I don't know jack about how to put together a mobile app. [24:26.4]

I couldn't tell you. I'm still a caveman man. I am a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff, but I don't need to be, I don't need to be an expert at every little part. You know, I'll tell you what the best, the single best, absolute hands-down business book I've ever read. I just got done reading a couple of days ago and not only is it the best book I've ever read, but it's the best bio I've ever read and it's not even technically a business book. It's a, it's the title of the book is Steve Jobs, that's just the name of it by Walter Isaacson.

James: That’s a freaking amazing book. Yeah I love that one.

Ben: That one, that book, it should be like, I'm not even a Steve jobs fan boy, but that book is amazing. And he got ridiculed by Bill Gates and everyone, well he's not even a programmer. Like does it matter?

James: No.

Ben: So that’s it, that book alone is someone's having confidence problems. Just read it because man, that every chapter is just something that I was taking notes like there's no tomorrow. [25:28.2]

And that was huge. That stood out is that he wasn't even really that. Technically I mean that was the whole point. He wanted it so simple. Anyone can use it. Yeah. If anything, he was his own market. And I think there's a lot to be said for that.

James: Yeah. I remember reading that. I was just like, so he didn't know anything about computers but, but the thing is he's considered outside of Bill Gates and Paul Allen and whatnot. He's considered to be one of the greatest computer minds or like computer influencers or whatever the kids are calling it these days I guess. And people associate him with being like the Apple computer God essentially. But he wasn't that. He was more of the creative type. So he was.

Ben: Yeah he was. why isn't the ACO did all the early stuff? Well you know what he was though. And anyone listening to this can.. I don't know if this is, I don't know if this is a skill or if it's a talent. Cause there's a difference, you know, you're born with talent, but you can develop a skill, right? Like I wasn't born that writing talent, but it's a skill I've been able to develop. [26:33.7]

And you, you don't need talent to do well, but I'll say this. Well, he had on a talent level and a skill level, it was intuition being intuitive about he was passionate about and anybody can be intuitive. I just really taking an active interest in passion for, for in your case like, you know, financial planning. Well, you know, you can be intuitive. You can learn that. You can at least become more in tune with it and look for ways to make it simpler and easier and more accessible. Whatever it is you teach and do and make it so that it's very, very simple. I mean really that that is 99% of the battle these days is just people are so pulled in so many different directions on their time and their intention and their mental bandwidth at those who can take something and distill it down into the simplest, most frictionless place you can are going to stand out even if they're not the best. [27:31.4]

You know, I have these series of books called ‘The Villains.’ I call them the villains, success villains trilogy, but yeah, there's nothing new in these books. I've simply taken concepts that have helped me and try to distill them down into a much simpler level than how I learned it. It doesn't mean I invented any of it. I'm not as, I'm not any smarter than the people out there who have I figured this out earlier or retaught it right. But I have brought it down to a simple level and they are bestselling books as a result. So anybody could do this. You just have to think about the end user. Who would, who? Your customer, your client. How can you make their life so easy, much easier than it is. Simpler than it is now. You know Steve jobs would sit there as you know, he would look at, he would look at a piece of whatever they created and just look at it for days or weeks. Like how can we remove one screw from this thing and make it easier to use. That's the mindset. [28:22.7]

James: Yeah. And for the, The Villains books, can you give the actual title and where people can get it.. is it's just Amazon still?

Ben: Yeah, there's three of them. I just have met, if you go to villainsbook.com and it'll show you, take you to a page with all three of them because it's a trilogy and they all build on each other.

James: Okay, good. And you have back to the Steve jobs thing, when I was reading, I can't remember if it was Steve the Steve jobs book or if it was somewhere else, but he was influenced by European washing machines.

Ben: Yeah.

James: I believe that's where he got the design ideas.

Ben: It was that. Yeah it was, it was, you know what he did? He looked at like old machines. Well and his dad influenced him. He was growing up cause he would say things like, you know, even the, and by the way, this is something Disney was the same way about this. They would both go listen just because you can't see this, that no one will see. Maybe even a technician will never see it. It still needs to be the higher quality and look good and be super high quality. And so like for example, dad would build a cabinet and then most people cabinet makers would put some particle boarders, something in the back. His Dad would be like no, no, no, you got to put real wood back here. But dad, no one's ever going to see it. Doesn't matter. You've got to make this as a whole, really high quality and stable and that is just something that I think has gone the wayside in today's American society.

James: Yeah, without a doubt. Financial advisors, I will catch you next time. [29:48.3]

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